Great show
***WACO Thread***
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Last: 5 yr ago by Rascal
Yeah, it's Rory Culkin. Guy has had a pretty decent career thus far.80s Guy said:k20dub said:80s Guy said:
Am I just crazy or is the actor that plays Tibs a young version of Emilio Estevez?
Macaulay Culkin's younger brother.
Are you sh*tting me?
Cstrickland05 said:roveram said:
Just watched ep 5.
Did Koresh (or anybody else) sing or play music as depicted?
I don't remember that happening at all.
I was wondering about that too. Haven't been able to find anything about that.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseretnews.com/article/286538/KORESHS-LAST-DAYS-FILLED-WITH-SEX-GUNS-ROCK-N-ROLL.amp
Apparently so. This is an article from 1993 that describes it.
Thanks for the link.
It's interesting how the article from that time labels people as 'fanatics', talks about Koresh fathering 12 children and in general denigrates those folks. That's how I remember the media coverage back then.
This show does a good job of balancing things out.
It's interesting how the article from that time labels people as 'fanatics', talks about Koresh fathering 12 children and in general denigrates those folks. That's how I remember the media coverage back then.
This show does a good job of balancing things out.
good lordcbr said:Wheatables02 said:
I'm just curious how you claim to know he broke laws, lied, stole, and cheated when he was dead. I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that all of these agents were corrupt. I hope you can see that when someone at the top makes a bad decision, a lot of people pay for it because they followed orders.
I am all for bringing dirty cops to the light and punishing them, however the FBI would have and still will throw the ATF under the bus in a heartbeat. I cannot believe that a cover up would not have been unearthed by now if the fix was on. You are entitled to your own opinions, as different as they might be from mine. I am sorry that you lost your friend.
Thanks. Steve was a good guy. He was not corrupt. But he was there for the action and he knew what he was doing was wrong. But like most evil done, he was just 'following orders. ' and 'part of the culture'
But many, many other officers after steve died have been proven to do exactly what I said. Lie. Cheat. Steal. Coverup. Murder. Knowingly sham an illegal raid.
You CANT have government running loose like that.
Alright let's discuss the finalie!
Pretty sad to watch. No matter who was to blame I think we can all agree that the children were innocent and were worth waiting for.
Did anyone notice, that was the real Gary Noesner that called Shannon in for the testimony?
My DVR cut off the last minute or so which pissed the wife off. I didn't know the CS5 gas was against the Geneva convention and that basically they went into that "not an assault" situation with the intent of the mothers seeing their children in pain. Infuriating the way it went down. Absolute abomination of government overstep and ridiculous use of force when terms of surrender had been agreed to. What a disaster of a situation
What a sad tradgedy.
The show certainly went with the tear gas starting the fire. I'm not sure I'm convinced that was it. The fire started in three places around the same time. Seems unlikely that no fires would start all day and then three almost simaltanouesly.
However I do think the teargas was a POS move by the FBI as pretty much the whole operation was. It makes you wonder if many couldn't escape because they had been tear-gassed and couldn't breathe.
However I do think the teargas was a POS move by the FBI as pretty much the whole operation was. It makes you wonder if many couldn't escape because they had been tear-gassed and couldn't breathe.
maca1028 said:
Did anyone notice, that was the real Gary Noesner that called Shannon in for the testimony?
And the real David Thibodeau sat next to the actor who portrayed him right before that. Seemed a little hokey to me but I think it was a nod to the two people whose stories were used to make the miniseries.
That was some of the most gut wrenching TV I've ever watched.
I enjoyed the series overall but was disappointed in the final episode. However, there's probably no way to perfectly tell the end of the story because of all we don't know. I'll second the documentary recommended above because it gives a good history of the BDs before Koresh and how he came to power. If you felt that the "Waco" series glossed over some of Koresh's nefarious activities, the documentary gives a more complete picture.dave94 said:
I'm definitely enjoying this so far, as it seems most are. What's been really interesting is that they had just aired a new documentary on A&E in January. I'm seeing a ton of recreations of some of the events that were discussed both by law enforcement and Branch Davidian survivors.
Definitely worth checking out.
http://www.aetv.com/shows/waco-madman-or-messiah
I will credit the "Waco" series with giving me a much better understanding of who the BDs were and why they didn't want to come out after the raid. And a much better understanding of the hundreds of bad decisions the government forces made that led to a tragic ending. As another poster said above, it doesn't matter whether the FBI/ATF started the fire, they created the situation and made it worse with every decision.
Txmoe said:
As another poster said above, it doesn't matter whether the FBI/ATF started the fire, they created the situation and made it worse with every decision.
Agreed, there's so much conspiracy theory and back and forth about who shot first / who started the fire ect. That's irrelevant when looking at what the government did. The major transgressions by the government were made before any of that. I think the show did a good job of showing that.
Ag_07 said:
That was some of the most gut wrenching TV I've ever watched.
Usually things I watch on tv don't bother me at all.. But as a father of 2 kids , man I had to look away from my TV every now and then during the final scenes.
Helpless mothers holding their babies in their arms as they died. And then realizing that actually happened.
I was in junior HS when this happened , so have some memory of watching it on TV and hearing the stories. Have read many testimonies and documents from survivors as well as FBI and ATF... Even have listed to tapes online that had the conversations between Steve Schneider and Gary Noesner during the standoff.
The ATF was way outta line and those who made the decisions should of been held liable and should of stood trial.
The FBI came in and continued to make bad decision after bad decisions.
The amount of lies rolling out from goverment agencies to cover their ass and depict then as the good guys in this was sickening.
The weapons charge was a total joke.
Should there have been a warrant and investigation to the possibility of statutory rape. Absolutely.. But never did it need to go down the way it did.
Innocent American citizens , many of them women and children died for no reason at all... And their blood will forever be on the hands of the FBI and ATF.
Quote:
And their blood will forever be on the hands of the FBI and ATF.
Let's not let Koresh off the hook here. While I agree with everything you just said I also blame Koresh. He was holding those people hostage. Maybe not in a physical sense but most certainly physcologically.
We saw in the series that multiple times multiple people wanted to leave and he manipulated them into staying.
The govt completely botched this on multiple levels but Koresh doesn't get off without any blood on his hands.
If that's the case, my wife is holding me hostage psychologically.
Maybe my stockpile of weapons will warrant an ATF raid to free me.
Maybe my stockpile of weapons will warrant an ATF raid to free me.
There's a fair amount of blame on both sides. This show was very good but I took a lot of what was portrayed with a grain of salt. This wasn't a documentary it was a dramatization based off of books by Noesner and Thibodeau with some Hollywood flair.
If those people weren't being held hostage then they had ample opportunity to tell Koresh to go pound sand, grab their kids, and walk out the door.
On the other hand the ATF had no business raiding that place, the FBI made it worse with their "scare tactic" mentality of trying to flush them out, and Reno should've never allowed tear gas to be pumped in there with innocent children.
If those people weren't being held hostage then they had ample opportunity to tell Koresh to go pound sand, grab their kids, and walk out the door.
On the other hand the ATF had no business raiding that place, the FBI made it worse with their "scare tactic" mentality of trying to flush them out, and Reno should've never allowed tear gas to be pumped in there with innocent children.
The BDs were cray-cray, but they didn't need to die. What a horrible situation all around. 
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Just watched the finale.
Excellent show.
Excellent show.
Obviously we'll never get the real truth (I don't believe a word of anything either side says), but it is reasonable to think the fires were caused by knocked over kerosene lanterns that were being used all over the compound since they had no electricity.Frok said:
The show certainly went with the tear gas starting the fire. I'm not sure I'm convinced that was it. The fire started in three places around the same time. Seems unlikely that no fires would start all day and then three almost simaltanouesly.
Was the radio personality a real guy or was that a made up character for the show?
It was real, I heard it. I just can't recall if it was a Waco station or Dallas. In the series it is Dallas.maca1028 said:
Was the radio personality a real guy or was that a made up character for the show?
I remember hearing the playback of Koresh calling the station and being cut off by the feds.
I have been so busy with work/travel I just only got through ep 4 tonight. Two more to go.
THis is television at it's finest in my opinion. Very well done. I really had no idea that the college prof that taught Theology was really running things because Koresh was so badly injured. I would simply love to meet Gary the FBI negotiator, what an amazing person, truly.
Now I have to read both the books this is based on, and that is a good thing.
Well...Like the radio guy said based on the recent history of hostage situations where tear gas was used it's also reasonable to think the fire was started by the gas.
The FBI claims that there is a recording on the inside where someone asks if they got the fires started or used all the gas or something along those lines. Has that recording been released?
Cant find the actual audio but here is a transcript. From this PBS page: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/10-things-you-may-not-know-about-waco/
1st DAVIDIAN: [surveillance tape] Start the fire?
2nd DAVIDIAN: Got some fuel around here?
3rd DAVIDIAN: Right here.
PETER BOYER: The audio bug tapes from the morning of the fire were the critical evidence.
4th DAVIDIAN: [surveillance tape] Did you pour it yet?
5th DAVIDIAN: Huh?
4th DAVIDIAN: Did you pour it yet?
5th DAVIDIAN: I haven't yet.
6th DAVIDIAN: David said pour it, right?
5th DAVIDIAN: Did he? Do you want it poured?
6th DAVIDIAN: Come on. Let's pour it.
5th DAVIDIAN: Do you want it poured already?
7th DAVIDIAN: We want some fuel.
5th DAVIDIAN: I've got some here.
8th DAVIDIAN: We should have gotten some more hay in here.
9th DAVIDIAN: I know.
1st DAVIDIAN: [surveillance tape] Start the fire?
2nd DAVIDIAN: Got some fuel around here?
3rd DAVIDIAN: Right here.
PETER BOYER: The audio bug tapes from the morning of the fire were the critical evidence.
4th DAVIDIAN: [surveillance tape] Did you pour it yet?
5th DAVIDIAN: Huh?
4th DAVIDIAN: Did you pour it yet?
5th DAVIDIAN: I haven't yet.
6th DAVIDIAN: David said pour it, right?
5th DAVIDIAN: Did he? Do you want it poured?
6th DAVIDIAN: Come on. Let's pour it.
5th DAVIDIAN: Do you want it poured already?
7th DAVIDIAN: We want some fuel.
5th DAVIDIAN: I've got some here.
8th DAVIDIAN: We should have gotten some more hay in here.
9th DAVIDIAN: I know.
I feel like I've also read that some people have alleged that those voices heard on the recording discussing fuel were coming from outside the building and could have been agents.
According to Wikipedia the transcripts of those recordings are subject to controversy as well.
I dont believe it will ever be settled who started the fire.
As others have said, it is irrelevant.
It should have never gotten to that point.
According to Wikipedia the transcripts of those recordings are subject to controversy as well.
I dont believe it will ever be settled who started the fire.
As others have said, it is irrelevant.
It should have never gotten to that point.
I suggest some on here watch Oklahoma City on Netflix for a different perspective.
Wheatables02 said:
I suggest some on here watch Oklahoma City on Netflix for a different perspective.
I watched it the other night, very good documentary.
"We hear you have guns and are raping children. Instead of arresting you at one of your many public shows, we are just going to create a situation that potentially kills the people we are trying to protect and some of our own to boot." - ATF
Sound logic.
Sound logic.
Life's an endless party, not a punch card.
IMO, the blood is on Koresh's hands too. As soon as the ATF arrived on scene, they took gunfire from the compound. There was no initial negotiation. Eventually, Koresh released a majority of the children but only kept "his children there" and that's on him. I have no problem with the ATF remembering their agents.k20dub said:
After I watched the finale last night, I got on twitter and searched "#Waco" and came across this...
Not a good look. They took a lot of heat for it on Twitter too. Not that they shouldn't be remembered but no mention of the BD's that died?
Audio suggests Koresh ordered his remaining followers to pour flammable liquids everywhere.
The BD can make a similar post for their people if they want to. The ATF are referring to that day, not 40 or so days later. If you want to remember the BD who shot at the Feds that day and were killed, so be it.
If the BD's have their own twitter account, they are more than welcome to remember their members killed in the siege. Otherwise, I have no problem with the ATF remembering their fallen comrades.
The ATF screwed the pooch on this big time, but those women and children had two months to walk out of that compound to safety and the parents chose not to.
The ATF screwed the pooch on this big time, but those women and children had two months to walk out of that compound to safety and the parents chose not to.
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