If I have one complaint regarding the final season, I have to admit I don't love the Nazi gang showing up at the 25th hour to be the main antagonists of the final season.

Granted, I get that Walt is the real "bad guy", but I do wish they'd found a way to bring back someone who'd been previously established. Maybe a secondary sect of the cartel coming back for vengeance.

Agreed on the nazis. Just seemed out of place. Maybe there are a bunch of those types of guys in New Mexico and that's why they went that direction? We already had 4 seasons of dealing with cartel guys, so that was overdone. I'm sure Madrigal had a group of gangster/enforcer types that would have worked. Anything would have been better than a bunch of white trash dudes and Jessie plemmons

He was never good.

Certainly a good point, but I did not feel like I entered the rewatch hating him - it grew during the rewatch. I had a more favorable memory from back when I first watched it. But you are absolutely right that it's different info in the brain on the starting point when watching 9 years ago vs now.

I do think there are signs that Walt had control issues in his life, he just kept things bottled up until the cancer diagnosis. His falling out with Grey Matter probably was a sign of his personality, his need to control but if he couldn't he did something drastic. it semantics but not sure if he became a monster or removed all the internal brakes that previously prevented him from going down that road.

Complete Idiot said:

---

Certainly a good point, but I did not feel like I entered the rewatch hating him - it grew during the rewatch. I had a more favorable memory from back when I first watched it. But you are absolutely right that it's different info in the brain on the starting point when watching 9 years ago vs now.

I do think there are signs that Walt had control issues in his life, he just kept things bottled up until the cancer diagnosis. His falling out with Grey Matter probably was a sign of his personality, his need to control but if he couldn't he did something drastic. it semantics but not sure if he became a monster or removed all the internal brakes that previously prevented him from going down that road.

---

I think he felt that he never got the proper credit for his achievements, and that is why he left Grey Matter. The Schwartz's clearly did not have any ill will against them at that party. If he was an a-hole, that would have gone down differently. I think that after he left, he subsequently failed to make anything of himself because he was a pushover (as evident by how he was treated at the car wash). But once he got cancer, he had a "F-it" attitude and started growing a pair. After realizing benefits of that, he ramped it up to level 10 and became the murderous a-hole we all know and love.

IMO, He was always a controlling freak but prior to the show/diagnosis he had no control in his life so he focused that into teaching, way he dressed, small things. Part of his "break" which coincided with the diagnosis was him finally unpacking/unrepressing how for 50 yrs he had angrilly swallowed his pride and desire for control, and blindly followed the "instructions" of daily married life.
Much of his anger and hate was at himself for repressing this true desire for power, so his actions as a 50yr old first time criminal sort of followed the pattern of a kid exploring freedoms. Some kids party in HS, others are good in HS and go crazy partying in college, and others are good all through HS and college and then go party crazy as a married 26yr old leading to the 1st divorce and a lot of lucky coworker sex. I think walt is like the 3rd group.
He was always evil and had a masochistic desire for control and dominance but like that 26yr old who never smoke/drank/hooked up in high school or college, he kept it buried away until the cancer brought all of his most "**** it" selfish desires back up/out.

expresswrittenconsent said:

---

IMO, He was always a controlling freak but prior to the show/diagnosis he had no control in his life so he focused that into teaching, way he dressed, small things. Part of his "break" which coincided with the diagnosis was him finally unpacking/unrepressing how for 50 yrs he had angrilly swallowed his pride and desire for control, and blindly followed the "instructions" of daily married life.
Much of his anger and hate was at himself for repressing this true desire for power, so his actions as a 50yr old first time criminal sort of followed the pattern of a kid exploring freedoms. Some kids party in HS, others are good in HS and go crazy partying in college, and others are good all through HS and college and then go party crazy as a married 26yr old leading to the 1st divorce and a lot of lucky coworker sex. I think walt is like the 3rd group.
He was always evil and had a masochistic desire for control and dominance but like that 26yr old who never smoke/drank/hooked up in high school or college, he kept it buried away until the cancer brought all of his most "**** it" selfish desires back up/out.

---

I wouldn't agree with the control freak assessment. He may have been a control freak regarding the chemistry (like the fly episode), but I don't think of him as a control freak in other respects. Certainly not before getting cancer. For example, in the flash back where they were going to buy that house, Walter wanted to buy a bigger house, but clearly he lost that fight. I think it was more about him not getting his due or reaching his full potential.

But we are both talking our opinions about a fictional character here, so neither of us are right or wrong. I think this is the sort of thing that makes this show so great. I cannot think of any other character outside of novels that are as deep as those on this show.

I agree - no right or wrong to this, just a fun discussion about a great character on a well written show. Poor shows dumb everything down and spell it out for viewers, and aren't interesting enough to spark discussion.

I think Walt loves chemistry because he can completely control the environment and the result. Do each step perfectly, the right combinations and right physical inputs, and you get a perfect result. A controlled environment seems to appeal to him. His father died when he was 6 and it was a disease that took away control of his own body and ability to do things for himself. I always thought he left Grey Matter because of a falling out with Gretchen, who he was dating. Couldn't control that , felt he lost respect or something, and just bailed.

He is a highly intellectual chemist working at Los Alamos when he marries a student ten years younger than him who he met when she was a waitress. Someone to control? Did life go as he expected? His son had a physical condition he could not control. Does that cause stress?

But then again the flashbacks to him looking at that house, talking with Gretchen in a class room, he seems kind of like a free spirit type not an uptight control freak. Maybe life beat him down to that point and it wasn't always in him.

Complete Idiot said:

---

I agree - no right or wrong to this, just a fun discussion about a great character on a well written show. Poor shows dumb everything down and spell it out for viewers, and aren't interesting enough to spark discussion.

I think Walt loves chemistry because he can completely control the environment and the result. Do each step perfectly, the right combinations and right physical inputs, and you get a perfect result. A controlled environment seems to appeal to him. His father died when he was 6 and it was a disease that took away control of his own body and ability to do things for himself. I always thought he left Grey Matter because of a falling out with Gretchen, who he was dating. Couldn't control that , felt he lost respect or something, and just bailed.

He is a highly intellectual chemist working at Los Alamos when he marries a student ten years younger than him who he met when she was a waitress. Someone to control? Did life go as he expected? His son had a physical condition he could not control. Does that cause stress?

But then again the flashbacks to him looking at that house, talking with Gretchen in a class room, he seems kind of like a free spirit type not an uptight control freak. Maybe life beat him down to that point and it wasn't always in him.

---

Another argument against the control freak angle is that when they started up, Walter wanted only control over the chemistry. He wanted Jesse to handle the "business". I think a control freak wouldn't have left half of the responsibilities to a drugged up tweaker like he did. If I remember right, he didn't even want to know about it at first.

So then it is interesting to think about the triggering mechanisms that happened during the show to send Walt over the edge to basically evil. I think he liked hearing how his product was superior to all others. I think he liked realizing how much money it generated. I think he liked the feeling of controlling someone like Tuco. I don't think he liked killing Krazy-8 per se but maybe liked realizing he had it in him? All came together to create a new Walt, relatively quickly. Short of a mental illness I've not seen life fundamentally change someone from good to evil in their actions, but then maybe this is the point where I am over analyzing it. Ultimately it's a show and a fake character, and it was done so well.

Ol Jock 99 said:

---

I liked it. Walt's hubris got him. "Blondie is just a dumb kid; no way he can hurt me." Oops.

---

Just like Walt came along and wrecked Fring's world COMPLETELY - a damn chemistry teacher taking out a drug empire - it's fitting to see a bunch of career criminal thugs undermine what Walt had built and attempted to control. Walt and the thugs are equally driven by self interest and greed.

Complete Idiot said:

---

So then it is interesting to think about the triggering mechanisms that happened during the show to send Walt over the edge to basically evil. I think he liked hearing how his product was superior to all others. I think he liked realizing how much money it generated. I think he liked the feeling of controlling someone like Tuco. I don't think he liked killing Krazy-8 per se but maybe liked realizing he had it in him? All came together to create a new Walt, relatively quickly. Short of a mental illness I've not seen life fundamentally change someone from good to evil in their actions, but then maybe this is the point where I am over analyzing it. Ultimately it's a show and a fake character, and it was done so well.

---

Other then making a product that ruins people's lives and blowing off his several opportunities to get out, much of the day to day evil that he did was necessary to save himself or Jesse. Watching Jane die was evil, but somewhat "necessary", since Jesse and Jane would have likely drugged themselves to death and eventually Walt would get exposed. If Walter had let Gus kill Jesse early on, things would have been much easier on Walter, but he couldn't let that happen. From that came Walt killing Gus's guys, having Jesse kill Gale, etc. Walt initially was going to escape with his family, but since Skyler spent their money, he had to stay and kill Gus. Even killing those guys in the prisons was "necessary" to save himself. He couldn't just pick up and leave his family like Mike. One his senseless killings was Walt killing Mike. But think about it, Mike himself was a monster. He killed people when ordered to without conscience. And even then, Walter felt bad and apologized before Mike told him to shut the F up. Much of his evil was intentionally morally ambiguous.


Another thing I find interesting, is that any of us probably would have been able to predict that Walt's actions would have destroyed his family and cost countless lives. But did any of us call him an A-hole after episode 1? No. We were cheering him on and hoping he would succeed. We celebrated when he killed Crazy 8 and Tuco. It wasn't until after he had destroyed his family that most of us say, "what a jackass for putting his family through that".


For me, the moment that I realized that Walt was truly evil was not when he had killed anybody, but when he was whistling after him and Jesse discussed that kid on the motorcycle getting killed. It didn't phase him at all.


Anyway, that show kicked ass.

expresswrittenconsent said:

---

He was never good.

---

Supporting arguments for this?

Missed this post.

You're basing this on a lot of assumptions and conjecture.

Just because he repressed a lot before the diagnosis didn't make him a bad person. Everybody in the world represses something or other in their life, that doesn't make them bad people if they don't act on those thoughts.

Complete Idiot said:

---

Ol Jock 99 said:

---

I liked it. Walt's hubris got him. "Blondie is just a dumb kid; no way he can hurt me." Oops.

---

Just like Walt came along and wrecked Fring's world COMPLETELY - a damn chemistry teacher taking out a drug empire - it's fitting to see a bunch of career criminal thugs undermine what Walt had built and attempted to control. Walt and the thugs are equally driven by self interest and greed.

---

Interesting parallel that I hadn't considered.

WRONG THREAD

Junkhead said:

---

I think to say Walt was always bad is ridiculous and goes against the entire premise of the show.

---

IMO, the 4 word "mr chips to scarface" premise of the original tv pilot pitch to network execs was not a summary of the character walter white across fifty whatever episodes. But even if you think it was, that doesnt mean the evil wasnt always there in this otherwise supposedly nice person. Good people do bad things and bad people do good things. I don't think the evidence exists in the entirety of the show to say he was a good person who did bad things.

Sin begets sin, power corrupts, and pride cometh before the fall.

expresswrittenconsent said:

---

Junkhead said:

---

I think to say Walt was always bad is ridiculous and goes against the entire premise of the show.

---

IMO, the 4 word "mr chips to scarface" premise of the original tv pilot pitch to network execs was not a summary of the character walter white across fifty whatever episodes. But even if you think it was, that doesnt mean the evil wasnt always there in this otherwise supposedly nice person. Good people do bad things and bad people do good things. I don't think the evidence exists in the entirety of the show to say he was a good person who did bad things.

---

There is far less evidence that he was a bad guy doing good things prior.

aTmAg said:

---

For me, the moment that I realized that Walt was truly evil was not when he had killed anybody, but when he was whistling after him and Jesse discussed that kid on the motorcycle getting killed. It didn't phase him at all.

---

His demeanor when drinking with his son and Hank really got to me. First true glimpse for me that dude had some legit evil lurking in there.

He broke bad when he watched Jane die.

wcb said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

For me, the moment that I realized that Walt was truly evil was not when he had killed anybody, but when he was whistling after him and Jesse discussed that kid on the motorcycle getting killed. It didn't phase him at all.

---

His demeanor when drinking with his son and Hank really got to me. First true glimpse for me that dude had some legit evil lurking in there.

---

That scene has always confused me. I'm still not sure what he (or the writers) were trying to accomplish there.

Junkhead said:

---

He broke bad when he watched Jane die.

---

Maybe, but one could easily argue it was in Jesse's (or Walt's) best interest. Forcing your son over the top for no reason at all, when being warned by your BIL to stop, there's no way to argue anything good about it.

That said, the Jane scene was equally hard to watch.

wcb said:

---

Junkhead said:

---

He broke bad when he watched Jane die.

---

Maybe, but one could easily argue it was in Jesse's (or Walt's) best interest. Forcing your son over the top for no reason at all, when being warned by your BIL to stop, there's no way to argue anything good about it.

---

I'd say it was in both Jesse and Walt's best interest. Jesse would have ODed with all that money (and the drugs it could buy). The next episode, Walt rescued Jesse from that crack house and checked him into rehab.


And I don't consider that the moment he broke bad. He clearly felt terrible about it. If he was bad already, it wouldn't have phased him. Later, he watched an innocent kid get shot (who wasn't trying to blackmail him), and he basically was "meh" about it. That's how bad Walter reacts.