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Malignant from James Wan

10,802 Views | 186 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Counterpoint
Brian Earl Spilner
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AG
Quote:

It just bugs me when people try to defend their enjoyment of it by saying that the poorly-executed elements were intentionally poorly executed. It can be fun and unique and entertaining and unintentionally bad all at the same time.


And you can be an actor who acts in what's clearly intended to be a b-movie without being a terrible actor.

Nobody is defending their enjoyment of the movie. Opinions are just that and everyone has them.

Nobody's saying this is an Oscar-worthy cast, but you're acting like you have a sixth sense for detecting "unintentional" bad acting that apparently no one else has.

People can enjoy a movie that you didn't without you having to come in to qualify it.
TCTTS
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AG
Brian Earl Spilner said:

Quote:

It just bugs me when people try to defend their enjoyment of it by saying that the poorly-executed elements were intentionally poorly executed. It can be fun and unique and entertaining and unintentionally bad all at the same time.


And you can be an actor who acts in what's clearly intended to be a b-movie without being a terrible actor.

Nobody is defending their enjoyment of the movie. Opinions are just that and everyone has them.

Nobody's saying this is an Oscar-worthy cast, but you're acting like you have a sixth sense for detecting "unintentional" bad acting that apparently no one else has.

People can enjoy a movie that you didn't without you having to come in to qualify it.

It's not a "sixth sense," and plenty of people can and do have it (whatever "it" is). It's not some special skill. But after nearly 40 years of watching movies, and over 15 years of working in this industry, yeah, it's not at all hard to tell when someone is a bad actor vs. when someone is intentionally acting bad.

People expressed their opinion of the movie. I expressed my opinion of the movie.

People tried to tell me - as a matter of fact - that the acting was intentionally bad. I tried to tell them it wasn't.

So why am *I* the one out of line?

Everyone here is "quantifying" and expressing their respective opinions. It's just when I express mine I'm apparently overly sure of myself, when you guys are being JUST as sure of your opinions when trying to tell me I'm wrong.
Brian Earl Spilner
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"You can enjoy the movie as long as you admit it's a bad movie" is how it's coming across.
TCTTS
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And "You can dislike the movie as long as you admit the bad acting is intentional" is basically how it comes across to me. You're doing the exact same thing.

You: "The acting is intentionally bad. Here's why..."

Me: "The acting is not intentionally bad. Here's why..."

You: "Quit stating your opinion as fact."

Me: "That's literally what you just did..."

Either way, I have absolutely nothing to do with whether you can or can't enjoy a movie, nor have I implied that I'm giving anyone here permission along those lines.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Quote:

It just bugs me when people try to defend their enjoyment of it by saying that the poorly-executed elements were intentionally poorly executed.


Right here. Nobody can "prove" an opinion, but you said it bugs you that people call it an intentional B-movie. Why does it bug you?
TCTTS
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AG
Ha, because they're stating their opinions as facts! The same thing you're accusing me of doing.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Let's recap. We have a ridiculous premise, insane third act, cheesy dialogue, among other things.

We have one of the most successful horror directors currently working, with a big studio budget and a string of successful horror franchises. Hiring better actors would not be a problem here.

Your position is that the acting is terrible and James Wan is such a bad director that he either a) doesn't know how to direct them better or b) doesn't even realize the acting is bad?

This is more plausible to you than him making an intentionally ridiculous, over-the-top B movie with hokey acting and dialogue? Something also done by many other successful directors, such as Sam Raimi?

Why is that more believable to you and apparently nobody else?
TCTTS
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AG
Brian Earl Spilner said:

Let's recap. We have a ridiculous premise, insane third act, cheesy dialogue, among other things.

We have one of the most successful horror directors currently working, with a big studio budget and a string of successful horror franchises. Hiring better actors would not be a problem here.

Your position is that the acting is terrible and James Wan is such a bad director that he either a) doesn't know how to direct them better or b) doesn't even realize the acting is bad?

This is more plausible to you than him making an intentionally ridiculous, over-the-top B movie with hokey acting and dialogue? Something also done by many other successful directors, such as Sam Raimi?

Why is that more believable to you and apparently nobody else?

First of all, "successful" doesn't automatically = "good." There are plenty of financially "successful" movies that are pure crap. That isn't some big Hollywood secret.

Secondly, horror movies are known as one of the last near "guarantees" in the theatrical business. In other words, audiences will show up for just about any horror movie, as long as it's decently-executed and provides enough thrills/scares. Bonus points if its inventive or something we haven't quite seen before. Either way, they're hardly dependent on their cast, and are in fact known for hiring budget actors and being incredibly cheap to make, relatively speaking, because it's the premise that sells, hardly ever the cast.

But to break these down individually...

Saw = You couldn't pay me to see this, but it was financially successful no doubt due to its unique, entertaining premise as a horror movie, not its cast. I couldn't name a single actor in the entire franchise.

Insidious = I admit, I have no idea what this even is. I remember seeing the title, and I know it's a horror movie, but that's the extent of my knowledge. If it was financially successful, though, again, I chalk that up to it simply being a horror movie with exciting scares, not its cast, of which I couldn't name a single actor either.

Furious 7 = Probably Wan's most charismatic cast, but a cast he inherited from other directors.

Aquaman = Similar to Furious 7, the two leads were cast by another director. Regardless, as I've said previously, this is easily one of the worst blockbusters I've ever seen, some of the worst CGI I've ever seen (in a tentpole blockbuster), and features some of the most baffling cinematography I've ever seen as well.

The Conjuring = I have vague memories of seeing the first one, at home, years ago. Didn't leave an impression on me, though. But this Wan's *only* movie in which he cast legitimately impressive leads (in Farmiga and Wilson) that he didn't inherent from previous directors.

So, out of everything he's done, he's basically responsible for ONE good/notable cast (in The Conjuring). That's it. Again, the reality is that Wan has made a career out of capitalizing on a genre that is the least dependent on quality actors/acting. Which I don't fault him for at all. In fact, good for him. But just because he's had a financially successful career doesn't mean he understands great casting/acting/dialogue, or could execute a good movie outside of horror/franchise blockbusters, the two genres least dependent on across-the-board quality.

All of this is to say that, yes, given the circumstances, and given his track record, it's HIGHLY likely to me that casting/actors/dialogue aren't Wan's strong suits, and that he doesn't at all have a command of how to make any of those things truly compelling. You may very well think my arguments are ridiculous, but you're the one arguing that the bad thing is actually intentional. I'm simply saying the bad thing is bad. In other words, the burden of proof is more on you than it is me.
Brian Earl Spilner
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AG
Wait, so you're throwing out the cast of Insidious because you haven't seen it?



(The leads are Patrick Wilson and Rose Byrne, btw.)
Brian Earl Spilner
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Furthermore, nice straw man by arguing that his sucess isn't due to his cast. Nobody said it was.
TCTTS
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Wait, out of everything I said, that's your retort?



(Also, the fact that it stars Patrick Wilson - the same lead in The Conjuring - doesn't really negate my overall point.)
TCTTS
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

Furthermore, nice straw man by arguing that his sucess isn't due to his cast. Nobody said it was.

Straw man? Ha, I'm responding to the argument YOU presented, which primarily focused on his actors/acting/casts.
Some Junkie Cosmonaut
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This is...something.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Responding to an argument nobody made. Casts are not the reason for his success. (Which is true of pretty much any major blockbuster.)

So not sure why that was your argument.

Plus you haven't even seen two of those horror franchises so it's hard to take you seriously when your whole argument is that he has had ONE good cast.
TCTTS
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I've seen enough of his sh*tty movies to have the opinion that he's a sh*tty filmmaker.
Brian Earl Spilner
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And I've seen a lot of intentionally made B-movies to know one when I see one.
TCTTS
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OMG, are you a wizard? Where did this "sixth sense" of yours come from???
Tibbers
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This just in…man enraged about something he doesn't understand. News at 11.
Tibbers
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I'm curious. Do you like b movies or have you seen b movies? If so, what are your favs? You clearly love movies. We get that, but I don't think you get the history and lore of these types of lightning in a bottle style flicks.

Like, did you like slumber party massacre 2? Did you enjoy Chopping Mall? How about CHUD?

I get a sense that you just don't enjoy these types of flicks and that's fine but to say that James Wan is a bad director is a little absurd. I'm sure you can understand that right? The guy created Saw. The guy created The Conjuring series. The guy created Insidious. These are not fly by night, flash in the pan, run of the mill horror films. They have made oodles of money. Maybe you just don't like horror films in general. I get it, they get a bad wrap. Like you can be the best director of all time but in the industry if you're know as a horror director it's somehow a brand of shame.

I'd go as far to say that James Wan is the Wes Craven of our generation and I think he's an unheralded success in what he chooses to do.
TCTTS
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No, I'm not really a fan of B movies, nor have I seen any of the ones you mentioned. But I totally get how they can make for fun, communal experiences, like, say, watching The Room with a packed audience. I'm not above enjoying them from time to time, in that environment, and I get the appeal. In general, though, I'm just not very into them, and if I'm going to watch a movie, I'd rather spend that time watching something I can learn from or will get enjoyment from, on a different, more satisfying level.

As to your main point, being a good horror director doesn't necessarily make one a good director in general. If for no other reason than horror hardly relies on character or theme the way the best of other genres do. Horror movies are more akin to a theme park ride in that the *thrill* of the experience is the primary driving factor, while everything else takes a back seat. That's not to say there aren't good horror movies that *do* rely on character and theme. It's just that, by and large, most of them would rather grab you with tension and scares, while everything else becomes a delivery method for the tension and scares. Which is totally fine! I'm not shi*ting on horror movies as experiences people enjoy.

Again, I'm just saying, being good at constructing what often amount to cinematic theme park rides doesn't automatically make one good at executing compelling characters and themes. I'm not arguing that James Wan isn't successful at what he does. I'm merely observing that, in his movies, when the tension and scares aren't on screen, I find his filmmaking mind numbing. I find his dialogue terrible. I find his lighting and cinematography among the worst in the business. And I don't think he could weave character and theme in compelling fashion if his life depended on it. But yes, he can absolutely direct successful horror franchises. There's no arguing that. Ask him to direct a movie outside of horror/franchise blockbusters, though, where he couldn't rely on jump scares, car chases, or amphibian wars, and I'm betting he wouldn't have a clue how to construct compelling cinema otherwise.
Tibbers
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Well it's difficult to prove that Wan could not direct a strict drama without him stepping his toes in those waters. I'm sad you don't enjoy b movies however. There is plenty to learn from them as well. Horror movies are tougher than you think which is why there are so many of them, but very few that are actually good and scary. Counter that with a drama of which there are tons and many of them fulfill their objective. Let me give you an example, what's more difficult to direct: The Fly or Pretty Woman?

Try watching the movies I listed and dial down the brain waves a bit and you'll see the wonderful imaginative characters and stories. Try and appreciate movies that despite their failings are unabashed in their ability to just go for it. No film is perfect, but even fewer have a singing driller killer like Slumber Party Massacre 2, ya dig? Or few films have Rowdy Roddy Piper fighting mutated frogmen like Hell Comes to Frogtown, ya diiiiig?
aggiespartan
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I watched this last night and thought it went from boring to dumb. This isn't a new concept to horror and I didn't think it was done that well. Obviously most people on here disagree with me, but I thought it was just kind of meh.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Live look at TC after that last post
TCTTS
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At least I'm not publicly talking about how movies give me "boners" like a 14-year-old in 2003.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Tibbers
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TCTTS said:

At least I'm not publicly talking about how movies give me "boners" like a 14-year-old in 2003.


Well rewatch all the Oscar winners for all we care, but if you want a good time, check out the remake of The Blob or check out Remote Control!
RikkiTikkaTagem
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TCTTS said:



Saw = You couldn't pay me to see this, but it was financially successful no doubt due to its unique, entertaining premise as a horror movie, not its cast. I couldn't name a single actor in the entire franchise.




canadiaggie
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TCTTS said:


Saw = You couldn't pay me to see this, but it was financially successful no doubt due to its unique, entertaining premise as a horror movie, not its cast. I couldn't name a single actor in the entire franchise.



Imagine admitting in public that you don't know who the GOAT Wahlberg brother is.

Donnie.
Ol_Ag_02
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AG
Now I want to see this just so I can say I'm on team TCTTS or team Brian Earl Spilner.
TexAggie5432
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TCTTS said:

Brian Earl Spilner said:

Let's recap. We have a ridiculous premise, insane third act, cheesy dialogue, among other things.

We have one of the most successful horror directors currently working, with a big studio budget and a string of successful horror franchises. Hiring better actors would not be a problem here.

Your position is that the acting is terrible and James Wan is such a bad director that he either a) doesn't know how to direct them better or b) doesn't even realize the acting is bad?

This is more plausible to you than him making an intentionally ridiculous, over-the-top B movie with hokey acting and dialogue? Something also done by many other successful directors, such as Sam Raimi?

Why is that more believable to you and apparently nobody else?

First of all, "successful" doesn't automatically = "good." There are plenty of financially "successful" movies that are pure crap. That isn't some big Hollywood secret.

Secondly, horror movies are known as one of the last near "guarantees" in the theatrical business. In other words, audiences will show up for just about any horror movie, as long as it's decently-executed and provides enough thrills/scares. Bonus points if its inventive or something we haven't quite seen before. Either way, they're hardly dependent on their cast, and are in fact known for hiring budget actors and being incredibly cheap to make, relatively speaking, because it's the premise that sells, hardly ever the cast.

But to break these down individually...

Saw = You couldn't pay me to see this, but it was financially successful no doubt due to its unique, entertaining premise as a horror movie, not its cast. I couldn't name a single actor in the entire franchise.

Insidious = I admit, I have no idea what this even is. I remember seeing the title, and I know it's a horror movie, but that's the extent of my knowledge. If it was financially successful, though, again, I chalk that up to it simply being a horror movie with exciting scares, not its cast, of which I couldn't name a single actor either.

Furious 7 = Probably Wan's most charismatic cast, but a cast he inherited from other directors.

Aquaman = Similar to Furious 7, the two leads were cast by another director. Regardless, as I've said previously, this is easily one of the worst blockbusters I've ever seen, some of the worst CGI I've ever seen (in a tentpole blockbuster), and features some of the most baffling cinematography I've ever seen as well.

The Conjuring = I have vague memories of seeing the first one, at home, years ago. Didn't leave an impression on me, though. But this Wan's *only* movie in which he cast legitimately impressive leads (in Farmiga and Wilson) that he didn't inherent from previous directors.

So, out of everything he's done, he's basically responsible for ONE good/notable cast (in The Conjuring). That's it. Again, the reality is that Wan has made a career out of capitalizing on a genre that is the least dependent on quality actors/acting. Which I don't fault him for at all. In fact, good for him. But just because he's had a financially successful career doesn't mean he understands great casting/acting/dialogue, or could execute a good movie outside of horror/franchise blockbusters, the two genres least dependent on across-the-board quality.

All of this is to say that, yes, given the circumstances, and given his track record, it's HIGHLY likely to me that casting/actors/dialogue aren't Wan's strong suits, and that he doesn't at all have a command of how to make any of those things truly compelling. You may very well think my arguments are ridiculous, but you're the one arguing that the bad thing is actually intentional. I'm simply saying the bad thing is bad. In other words, the burden of proof is more on you than it is me.
Yikes TCTTS. You need to watch more movies I guess.

Saw cast - Danny Glover, Michael Emerson, Cary Elwes

Insidious cast - Patrick Wilson, Rose Byrne, Barbara Hershey

Conjuring cast - Patrick Wilson, Vera Farmiga, Rod Livingston, Lili Taylor

This is the first movie he made with no name actors. Gotta think that was on purpose. He has had really good casts in his previous movies. You are talking out of ignorance about movies you've never seen.
TCTTS
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AG
Ol_Ag_02 said:

Now I want to see this just so I can say I'm on team TCTTS or team Brian Earl Spilner.

Tibbers
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I'd love to hear your watch thread on Saw. I'm sure it'd be a real hit. But seriously, watch Tremors or Critters or Chopping Mall. Are you really suggesting there is nothing to learn from watching these movies?

I'll send ya my copy for ya. You don't even have to get out of your apartment.
TCTTS
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I'll give you the Insidious cast. But please don't act like the cast for Saw is some kind of all-star team. That's a TV actor and two '80s movie actors way past their prime. My point remains. No one saw Saw for the cast, and I seriously doubt Wan got career-defining performances out of any of them.
TexAggie5432
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TCTTS said:

I'll give you the Insidious cast. But please don't act like the cast for Saw is some kind of all-star team. That's a TV actor and two '80s movie actors way past their prime. My point remains. No one saw Saw for the cast, and I seriously doubt Wan got career-defining performances out of any of them.
Your contention was that you couldn't name a single actor from Saw. I hope you know of at least 2 of those guys.

The fact he got anyone of note for his first movie when he was 27 years old with a $1.2M budget is impressive.
Brian Earl Spilner
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The goalposts keep changing. Hilarious.

First it's about ****ty acting. Then about how his casts are never a draw. Then it's about how they're not all-star casts because they've been on TV. (Nevermind that Emerson has won an Emmy.)

At this point I'm just enjoying seeing the mental gymnastics TC is doing.

 
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