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Becoming Led Zepplin

3,179 Views | 41 Replies | Last: 6 mo ago by AustinAg2K
aTmAg
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I watched this recently. It's pretty good. Though I wish it wasn't merely "becoming" but covered all albums and stuff. Because I'm basically ignorant about all of that.



One thing they mentioned that I don't understand was their aversion of singles. They went out of their way to make sure that none of their songs were "single worthy" (my term) by making songs blend together, and stuff. I believe one of them mentioned that singles ruin bands. Like make them not get along anymore or something. Anybody know why?

I figured that songs like Stairway to Heaven, and Kashmir were singles. Were they not? Also, I thought that the band, producer, label, or whatever controlled if something was a single? That if they didn't want a song to be a single, then just don't release it as a single?
Scotts Tot
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Their philosophy was much more oriented toward album-oriented rock, treating the album as a whole rather than a string of one-off tracks. Yes Stairway is the most played song ever on radio (I think?) but you have to imagine that it was with some initial reluctance that stations dedicated 8+ minutes to a single song.
aTmAg
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Is it true that singles somehow make bands break up for some reason?

If so, why? Do they get asked to play that song over and over and they grow to hate it? Half the band wants to play it because of $$$ and the other half don't because of "art" or something like that?
Hub `93
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I watched it Saturday. It was really good. The best part was JPJ talking about the advice from his parents and how proud his father was of him. The weirdest part was the the early show in London with all the families with little kids in attendance. I forget who else was on the bill, but I assume they were there for someone else.

The house on the Thames where they rehearsed was pretty cool.

I can't imagine getting to watch a band like that just feet away sitting on the floor of a TV studio. Amazing.
Aust Ag
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aTmAg said:

Is it true that singles somehow make bands break up for some reason?

If so, why? Do they get asked to play that song over and over and they grow to hate it? Half the band wants to play it because of $$$ and the other half don't because of "art" or something like that?


Never heard that before. Zeppelin simply didn't care about hit singles or anything like that. The whole band was in agreement. They were also very press-adverse, and rarely did any sort of lengthy interview.

Also, I'm 95% sure we will never see an autobiography from Page or Plant for the same reasons. You'll also never see a "Queen-like" movie about Zeppelin.

All this is part of what makes them the mighty Zeppelin. They were unlike anyone else. Pink Floyd is the only band I could make similar comments about. Everyone can name many Floyd tunes, but really knows little about them.
walton91
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Despite its popularity Stairway was never released as a single. I think the aversion to singles was to steer clear of a more pop oriented direction. Creating an album as a whole is more in the artists control and vision, as opposed to a label telling the artist to just give us another hit. Completely fictitious example, the movie That Thing You Do is the story of a one hit wonder band who breaks up because the label just wants more of the same and doesn't value the artistic direction the main songwriter wants to pursue #spoilersforanoldmovie
aTmAg
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I hade no idea that Page was the brains behind Zeppelin. I had assumed it was Plant the whole time. Maybe because I recognized his voice on sequent groups/albums. It's hard to recognize a guitar.

I was hoping for them to go into the creation of When the Levee Breaks or Kashmir. But then the show suddenly ended. I wonder if they will ever have a part 2? Or is that literally the end?
Brian Earl Spilner
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Awesome doc. Here's the thread from back then:

https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/3526036
Apache
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Quote:

It's hard to recognize a guitar.
Jimi, SRV, Eddie, Brian May, Slash, Santana, Knopfler, David Gilmore???

It's not difficult to recognize great guitar, they have a sound and style that is as unique as any voice.
Eddie Van Halen playing on "Beat It" or Stevie playing on Bowie's "Let's Dance" for a couple of examples, are easy to recognize playing out of context (their bands) if you listen.
aTmAg
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Apache said:

Quote:

It's hard to recognize a guitar.
Jimi, SRV, Eddie, Brian May, Slash, Santana, Knopfler, David Gilmore???

It's not difficult to recognize great guitar, they have a sound and style that is as unique as any voice.
Eddie Van Halen playing on "Beat It" or Stevie playing on Bowie's "Let's Dance" for a couple of examples, are easy to recognize playing out of context (their bands) if you listen.
Nope on both of your examples. I don't even remember a guitar solo at all on Let's Dance.

And it seems that there a bunch of people who play in Van Halen style. There was even a dad of a kid on this board who would upload videos of his son playing Eruption and stuff. Not sure what happened to him.
Apache
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You don't listen to much music I take it?
aTmAg
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Apache said:

You don't listen to much music I take it?
I've heard all of the songs mentioned plenty. I do not listen to any modern top 40 crap, but I assume that doesn't apply here.
Txgunrnnr
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I liked the show, but did anyone else have to turn the volume up and down when they interviewed the band vs when the music was playing? Or was it just me?
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” -Henry Ford

#FJB
Aggie87
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aTmAg said:

Apache said:

You don't listen to much music I take it?
I've heard all of the songs mentioned plenty. I do not listen to any modern top 40 crap, but I assume that doesn't apply here.

To my ears it's very clear that it's EVH on Beat It, and most of us knew it before it was officially confirmed. I don't think Eddie was even in the original album credits though.

And yes, SRV is very clearly the guitarist soloing on Bowie's Let's Dance. He's got a distinct style, just like EVH does.

aTmAg
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Aggie87 said:

aTmAg said:

Apache said:

You don't listen to much music I take it?
I've heard all of the songs mentioned plenty. I do not listen to any modern top 40 crap, but I assume that doesn't apply here.

To my ears it's very clear that it's EVH on Beat It, and most of us knew it before it was officially confirmed. I don't think Eddie was even in the original album credits though.

And yes, SRV is very clearly the guitarist soloing on Bowie's Let's Dance. He's got a distinct style, just like EVH does.


So I'm no guitarist, so maybe it takes one to hear the difference, but it seems to me that most of the distinctive sound is in the amp, pedals, or whatever else settings they use. I saw a youtube video a long time ago where some dude was basically changing the amp and settings to sound like several famous guitarist. I assume he was not as good as SVR or EVH, but on the stuff he did play, it did sound like them. I bet if you clip it and only have audio, that 99% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Apache
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Quote:

I bet if you clip it and only have audio, that 99% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
You might be correct, the same as if a forger painted a Rembrandt or Manet, or if a writer wrote in the style of Hemingway.

However, what started this was you saying you couldn't discern a particular guitar player.

I'm not one, but it is pretty easy to tell the really good ones as they have a particular style of playing to go along with certain setups that make them identifiable. The great guitar players can be imitated, sure, but anyone with half an ear would know which guitar player the sounds played are patterned after. They are that distinct.

It doesn't take away from the unique talents of a master if someone mimics them after the fact.
EclipseAg
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aTmAg said:

Is it true that singles somehow make bands break up for some reason?

If so, why? Do they get asked to play that song over and over and they grow to hate it? Half the band wants to play it because of $$$ and the other half don't because of "art" or something like that?
Exactly.

To consistently have hit singles, most bands have to set aside their uniqueness to create a more commercial sound, and it causes rifts between the members who want to be more famous/make more money and those who want to stay true to who they were in the beginning.

You often see this when record labels give bands a new producer or songwriting partner who knows how to craft a commercially successful record, someone like a David Foster, Mutt Lange or Desmond Child. The new guy comes in and helps the band hit paydirt but it changes their identity.

Think '70s Chicago, which was a jazz-rock band with heavy horn parts, and '80s Chicago, which was a softer, more melodic ballad band thanks to their producer David Foster.
Bruce Almighty
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aTmAg said:

I watched this recently. It's pretty good. Though I wish it wasn't merely "becoming" but covered all albums and stuff. Because I'm basically ignorant about all of that.


One thing they mentioned that I don't understand was their aversion of singles. They went out of their way to make sure that none of their songs were "single worthy" (my term) by making songs blend together, and stuff. I believe one of them mentioned that singles ruin bands. Like make them not get along anymore or something. Anybody know why?

I figured that songs like Stairway to Heaven, and Kashmir were singles. Were they not? Also, I thought that the band, producer, label, or whatever controlled if something was a single? That if they didn't want a song to be a single, then just don't release it as a single?
The music industry was much different in the 60s and 70s than the 80s and 90s. For one, the airwaves were dominated by AM radio, and to get airplay, songs had to be relatively short. FM existed, and that's where most rock music could be heard during that time, but there were much fewer listeners. Zeppelin did have singles, but it was their shorter songs like Immigrant Song and Black Dog. Whole Lotta Love was a single, but what was heard on the radio was heavily edited, about 2 minutes shorter than the album version. There was a shift towards FM radio become more popular in the late 70s, and that's when songs like Stairway to Heaven started getting heavy radio play. That's also about the time when rock music started to become more mainstream.

During the 50s and much of the 60s, singles sold more than albums. Musicians like Bob Dylan, the Beach Boys and The Beatles changed that, putting more emphasis on albums where every song was important and had a purpose instead of just 2 or 3 songs designed to hit the radio with a bunch of filler and covers that nobody cared about. Hard rock / metal bands weren't concerned with having radio friendly songs with built in time constraints that stripped away from their art. Imagine Robert Plant telling John Bonham that he couldn't have the drum intro on When the Levee Breaks because the song needed to be 3 and half minutes long to get airplay on AM radio. I think that's when it was meant by singles breaking up the band.
aTmAg
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Apache said:

Quote:

I bet if you clip it and only have audio, that 99% of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
You might be correct, the same as if a forger painted a Rembrandt or Manet, or if a writer wrote in the style of Hemingway.

However, what started this was you saying you couldn't discern a particular guitar player.

I'm not one, but it is pretty easy to tell the really good ones as they have a particular style of playing to go along with certain setups that make them identifiable. The great guitar players can be imitated, sure, but anyone with half an ear would know which guitar player the sounds played are patterned after. They are that distinct.

It doesn't take away from the unique talents of a master if someone mimics them after the fact.

It's not that I couldn't discern a particular guitar player. If these dudes were reincarnated and produced a new album I never heard of before, and you asked me to pick who was who, then I would easily be able to do it among the famous guys like SRV, EVH, Page, Gilmore, Hendrix, etc. But if you had good guitarists "forge" their styles, on those same new records, I probably wouldn't be able to tell that it was forged.

In this example, I just can't think of a single song that Page did after Zepplin. I bet that if you gave me a set of 5 songs to listen to and told me one of them had Page in it, then I'd be able to pick it out. But that'd be about as good as I can do.

However, whenever Plant sings on anything, then I can tell instantly without anybody giving me any hints. That's just the nature of singing vs guitar, IMO.
DG-Ag
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Txgunrnnr said:

I liked the show, but did anyone else have to turn the volume up and down when they interviewed the band vs when the music was playing? Or was it just me?
I was really looking forward to watching this. Love LZ. Have read other books about them. But there was something about the overall production value of it that made it fall a little flat. The sound was an issue but I typically have a bit of a struggle with a lot of British accents. I turned it off after about a half hour or so. I may start it up again. Maybe it was a little too late in the evening when I started, me being an old and everything!
You're from down South,
And when you open your mouth,
You always seem to put your foot there.
Aust Ag
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You actually "accidentally" bring up a good point. Of all the guys you listed, IMO, Page's guitar sound is the least "recognizable". For example, the guitar sound from Gilmour is not that different on his two greatest solos , Time and Comfortably Numb. You pretty much know a Gilmour solo when you hear it, even if someone were to randomly start playing something off his last solo record. As soon as you heard the guitar start up, you'd know, even if you'd never heard the song before.

Page on the other hand, sounded different on almost every song, especially after the first couple of albums. The guitar on Immigrant Song sounds nothing like anything else. As does Kashmir, as does The Wanton Song, and so on. You could throw in Nobody's Fault, and that repeating riff on In The Evening.

He's all over the place, and actually, that's what makes them still sound fresh today. Hard to sound dated when you don't have a distinctive sound on all your records (placing you in a certain era). As much as a love EVH, his original sound is from an era that is easily picked out. Probably because he was so heavily copied at the time. Page was very difficult to do that with.
Txgunrnnr
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DG-Ag said:

Txgunrnnr said:

I liked the show, but did anyone else have to turn the volume up and down when they interviewed the band vs when the music was playing? Or was it just me?
I was really looking forward to watching this. Love LZ. Have read other books about them. But there was something about the overall production value of it that made it fall a little flat. The sound was an issue but I typically have a bit of a struggle with a lot of British accents. I turned it off after about a half hour or so. I may start it up again. Maybe it was a little too late in the evening when I started, me being an old and everything!

Yeah, go ahead and finish it. It's good and I agree the production was a little, not just the volume of the production. Volume issues seem ( to me ) a running problem with Netflix.
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” -Henry Ford

#FJB
AgNav93
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aTmAg said:

Is it true that singles somehow make bands break up for some reason?

If so, why? Do they get asked to play that song over and over and they grow to hate it? Half the band wants to play it because of $$$ and the other half don't because of "art" or something like that?
I just watched an interview with a 90s band called Veruca Salt. They specifically mention this as one of the reasons they broke up. Citing that management, the record company and every band member had an opinion on what was the single and none were ever in agreement. Everyone took it personally and the tensions just grew.
mandevilleag
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I enjoyed it for the most part. It was interesting seeing some of their back stories, and seeing their reactions to Bonham's voice and his interview. It wasn't very "deep" though. They really didn't delve into anything that might have been controversial, or difficult to discuss. You could tell they had complete control of the narrative, which is fine. I was hoping for something a little more in-depth.
Lathspell
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Page 100% has his own "sound". Whether he's playing his Tele, his Burst, or any of his other iconic guitars, he has his voice. For many guitar players, their specific sound really comes out during solos.
Logos Stick
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aTmAg said:

Apache said:

Quote:

It's hard to recognize a guitar.
Jimi, SRV, Eddie, Brian May, Slash, Santana, Knopfler, David Gilmore???

It's not difficult to recognize great guitar, they have a sound and style that is as unique as any voice.
Eddie Van Halen playing on "Beat It" or Stevie playing on Bowie's "Let's Dance" for a couple of examples, are easy to recognize playing out of context (their bands) if you listen.
Nope on both of your examples. I don't even remember a guitar solo at all on Let's Dance.

And it seems that there a bunch of people who play in Van Halen style. There was even a dad of a kid on this board who would upload videos of his son playing Eruption and stuff. Not sure what happened to him.


Agree. I don't remember a solo on Let's Dance. No idea SRV was the guitarist and I bet 99% couldn't identify the guitarist. It's nothing comparable to the uniqueness of a voice.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Their aversion to singles wasn't particularly about it breaking up bands and I don't even really remember that mentioned in the movie but I've only watched it once and it was months ago.

While there certainly could be friction over singles. Consider like the Beatles where it was very much a competition between Lennon and McCartney at times and they were trying to balance it on albums and make both artists happy. Also they sometimes played different instruments and re-recorded songs without one of the members present. LZ would not have had much of that contention anyway as they had one lead singer and they all contributed on their respective instrument.

Mostly LZ just wanted to focus on making albums and the focus was the entire thing as a piece of art to them. They also did not want to be constrained by the typical time limitations of most singles that studios and producers and radio stations wanted artists to conform to. Queen and Rush were later bands that also refused to conform. They also considered doing singles as kind of selling out commercially and considered themselves serious artists.

They also just basically opted to build their brand and following through Live shows primarily instead of top 40 airplay which allowed them even longer form versions of their songs in jams. And it worked as they were renowned for their live shows whereas the Beatles by comparison stopped performing live and hated it.

Just an artistic choice and their music lent itself to Live format and long form.

Although it ws not just because of LZ in a lot of ways the growth of what was AOR or Album Orient Rock radio stations was because of bands like LZ and later Rush, Queen, etc. The album oriented format and playing any/all of a record became very popular on those rock stations throughout the 70s. When I first got into music in the late 70s that was huge. I remember a station in KC that played entire new albums on Saturday nights and you could sit and record the entire thing on cassette tape and have a nearly free album. I did that a lot.


Zombie Jon Snow
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I should say also that they were very fortunate to get the kind of contract they did as shown in the movie - thanks to Jimmy Page, Peter Grant and the influence of Dusty Springfield - because they had complete creative control in their first contract. Most bands do not have that and had to kowtow to the record company that wanted singles.
Apache
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Quote:

I don't remember a solo on Let's Dance. No idea SRV was the guitarist and I bet 99% couldn't identify the guitarist.
99% probably don't know who SRV is these days. To be fair, there isn't some long, blistering SRV solo on Let's Dance.

Safe to say everyone "hears" music a little differently, just as everyone sees something different in a painting or interprets writing differently. Most folks over 50 would easily know Willie Nelson or Waylon Jenning's song by voice. But even those legends have a particular guitar sound that can be picked out if you try.... but most don't listen that deeply I suppose.

aTmAg
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Their aversion to singles wasn't particularly about it breaking up bands and I don't even really remember that mentioned in the movie but I've only watched it once and it was months ago.

While there certainly could be friction over singles. Consider like the Beatles where it was very much a competition between Lennon and McCartney at times and they were trying to balance it on albums and make both artists happy. Also they sometimes played different instruments and re-recorded songs without one of the members present. LZ would not have had much of that contention anyway as they had one lead singer and they all contributed on their respective instrument.

Mostly LZ just wanted to focus on making albums and the focus was the entire thing as a piece of art to them. They also did not want to be constrained by the typical time limitations of most singles that studios and producers and radio stations wanted artists to conform to. Queen and Rush were later bands that also refused to conform. They also considered doing singles as kind of selling out commercially and considered themselves serious artists.

They also just basically opted to build their brand and following through Live shows primarily instead of top 40 airplay which allowed them even longer form versions of their songs in jams. And it worked as they were renowned for their live shows whereas the Beatles by comparison stopped performing live and hated it.

Just an artistic choice and their music lent itself to Live format and long form.

Although it ws not just because of LZ in a lot of ways the growth of what was AOR or Album Orient Rock radio stations was because of bands like LZ and later Rush, Queen, etc. The album oriented format and playing any/all of a record became very popular on those rock stations throughout the 70s. When I first got into music in the late 70s that was huge. I remember a station in KC that played entire new albums on Saturday nights and you could sit and record the entire thing on cassette tape and have a nearly free album. I did that a lot.
I think there was a station in Houston a decade or two ago that still played whole albums. I was visiting and I just happened across it when they were playing a song from the 60s that was just some dude playing a guitar, and it sounded good. And It just went on to the next song and the next song, and I never found out who it actually was. I had to get out of the car, without finding out.

Personally, I think LZ is better than the Beatles. The first time I remember hearing of the Beatles, was on a road trip with boy scouts, and the dad driving had an 8-track with a crap ton of Beatles songs. Usually the drivers let us pick a station, but he kept playing Beatles songs, and I remember me and the other scouts in the car thought it sounded like total crap (this was early 80s). When we complained, he said, "this is the Beatles! The greatest rock band of all time!" Only occasionally would he play a song that I recognize and didn't hate. To me, their music sounded so dated and old. Like we were listening to music from 1950, not the 60s.

However, I also remember where I was when I first heard a LZ song. It was on a commercial about some greatest hits album or something. I remember hearing Kashmir, Levee, and several others. And I thought, "damn that sounds good". Obviously, their music was a decade later later, but I think they could have been transported into the 90's and they would have fit right in. Maybe they were way ahead of their time. To me, the quality of their music is simply better.

My opinion on both were completely untainted by hype. I was going just off the music alone.
Anonymous Source
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aTmAg said:

I hade no idea that Page was the brains behind Zeppelin. I had assumed it was Plant the whole time. Maybe because I recognized his voice on sequent groups/albums. It's hard to recognize a guitar.

I was hoping for them to go into the creation of When the Levee Breaks or Kashmir. But then the show suddenly ended. I wonder if they will ever have a part 2? Or is that literally the end?
How Kashmir came together



You can tell that some of the licks in 'Let's Dance' are SRV, but Bowie really let him stretch out on this one....



What I freaking love about 'Becoming Led Zeppelin' is that Jimmy Page remembers everything. Dates, places...he is simply amazing.
Gig 'Em
Brian Earl Spilner
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It Might Get Loud is a great watch.
Anonymous Source
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Their aversion to singles wasn't particularly about it breaking up bands and I don't even really remember that mentioned in the movie but I've only watched it once and it was months ago.

While there certainly could be friction over singles. Consider like the Beatles where it was very much a competition between Lennon and McCartney at times and they were trying to balance it on albums and make both artists happy. Also they sometimes played different instruments and re-recorded songs without one of the members present. LZ would not have had much of that contention anyway as they had one lead singer and they all contributed on their respective instrument.

Mostly LZ just wanted to focus on making albums and the focus was the entire thing as a piece of art to them. They also did not want to be constrained by the typical time limitations of most singles that studios and producers and radio stations wanted artists to conform to. Queen and Rush were later bands that also refused to conform. They also considered doing singles as kind of selling out commercially and considered themselves serious artists.

They also just basically opted to build their brand and following through Live shows primarily instead of top 40 airplay which allowed them even longer form versions of their songs in jams. And it worked as they were renowned for their live shows whereas the Beatles by comparison stopped performing live and hated it.

Just an artistic choice and their music lent itself to Live format and long form.

Although it ws not just because of LZ in a lot of ways the growth of what was AOR or Album Orient Rock radio stations was because of bands like LZ and later Rush, Queen, etc. The album oriented format and playing any/all of a record became very popular on those rock stations throughout the 70s. When I first got into music in the late 70s that was huge. I remember a station in KC that played entire new albums on Saturday nights and you could sit and record the entire thing on cassette tape and have a nearly free album. I did that a lot.



It used to be that, when top 40 radio was new, you had to have a hit single or you weren't going to get any play. The playlists for the radio stations was, quite literally, 40 songs. You were in the top 40 or you weren't getting airplay. This put a ton of pressure from the record companies on bands, and that pressure would often seep in to the creative process and cause a lot of bands to break up. There's a reason there are so many one-hit wonders throughout the 60's. A band could hit it big with a song and get a fair amount of run on the air, but the top 40 rankings came out each week. Eventually, songs run their course and drop out, and there were a TON of bands who never could follow up their first hit.

Page had been to America with the Yardbirds and he knew that the album rock movement and FM radio was going to be a big deal, and he made his records accordingly.

It took some real brass for Led Zeppelin to go and shop their album...before they even had a record deal...and say from the outset that the band would have complete and total control over the music or there was no deal. And the biggest record company in the world at the time gave it to them.
Gig 'Em
BQ78
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FM, not AM radio made Zeppelin. AM was playing Sweet Caroline and Sugar.Sugar by the Archies. The Zeppelin sound would not have made it and the songs too long on AM. Zeppelin was one of the groups that got people to stop listening to pop hits and move to Album rock FM stations in the late 60s and early 70s.
clonebucky
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I loved it.

Best part for me was the never before aired interview with John Bonham.

Who happens to be the greatest r-n-r drummer of all time in my book.

I think it was smart to end the show at LZ-II. There will probably be another episode given the success this will likely have and I'm glad this one did not have to dive into the trajedy of losing Bonham.

If you watched it and were not aware of that, watch it again and pay attention to the band's expressions when they hear him again.

Next best part was Page's involvement in the mixing. I agree with the assertion that FM radio was important for their success and their mixing used a good bit of left-right movement that I wish I was around to experience the frist time (for me, that moment was hearing EVH Eruption the first time when I was in grade school).

All of them were really good to great at what they do and managed to work well together for a long time. Very rare.
Shane '91
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