dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I think we've got to be fair and say that Calvin didn't come up with double predestination out of nowhere. It does have roots in Augustine, though it's debated how much and how far.

That being said, as we see in these discussions, to get to this position requires a redefining of "all" to too many verses for it to really make sense. In the debates over this topic, proponents tend to avoid those verses in favor of other ones that are less clear and I don't see that as a good debate style.

However, it is also clear, that not all will be saved. That is unavoidable as well and Scripture is equally clear on that.

The balance that Lutherans find is to say that

Jesus died for all and we are all saved by God's grace through faith because of this and not because of anything we will ever do or add to it.
However, many will choose to reject this grace and will face the wrath/punishment or whatever awaits those who choose this path.

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For the most part agree. As you stated, it is hard to explain away all the "all" men verses. I am very leery of any theology that has to add words to make their theology work.

I believe eventually all will be reconciled. There is punishment, but it is refining punishment and is not eternal, which is the character of Abba God as revealed through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved. I do not believe God's desire can be overcome by man's will.

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I know that's your position, but universalism (which is what your argument boils down to), just doesn't have any support historically, nor does it have scriptural support. I'd actually say you make the same mistakes at Calvinists in incorrectly interpreting Scripture by changing the meaning of words or just outright ignoring Scripture.

Yes Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved, but that He desires something, does not mean He imposes His will on us to that level. Simple example...God desires we follow His commandments...yet we don't. He could simply impose His will on us and make it so, but he doesn't. He gives man free will (in a sense) to either believe or not.

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I think we've got to be fair and say that Calvin didn't come up with double predestination out of nowhere. It does have roots in Augustine, though it's debated how much and how far.

That being said, as we see in these discussions, to get to this position requires a redefining of "all" to too many verses for it to really make sense. In the debates over this topic, proponents tend to avoid those verses in favor of other ones that are less clear and I don't see that as a good debate style.

However, it is also clear, that not all will be saved. That is unavoidable as well and Scripture is equally clear on that.

The balance that Lutherans find is to say that

Jesus died for all and we are all saved by God's grace through faith because of this and not because of anything we will ever do or add to it.
However, many will choose to reject this grace and will face the wrath/punishment or whatever awaits those who choose this path.

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For the most part agree. As you stated, it is hard to explain away all the "all" men verses. I am very leery of any theology that has to add words to make their theology work.

I believe eventually all will be reconciled. There is punishment, but it is refining punishment and is not eternal, which is the character of Abba God as revealed through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved. I do not believe God's desire can be overcome by man's will.

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I know that's your position, but universalism (which is what your argument boils down to), just doesn't have any support historically, nor does it have scriptural support. I'd actually say you make the same mistakes at Calvinists in incorrectly interpreting Scripture by changing the meaning of words or just outright ignoring Scripture.

Yes Scripture is clear God desires all to be saved, but that He desires something, does not mean He imposes His will on us to that level. Simple example...God desires we follow His commandments...yet we don't. He could simply impose His will on us and make it so, but he doesn't. He gives man free will (in a sense) to either believe or not.

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And I am okay with that. I am not okay with any theology that says that God's grace does not extend to all people.

There is a lot more historical support for universal reconciliation than you might know. I am sure you know that St. Gregory of Nyssa was probably the highest regarded proponent, St. Augustine even talked about how "many" believed in ultimate reconciliation.

It does not mean there is not punishment or judgement which is Biblically clear, it simply states that punishment is not eternal and is corrective, not punitive. It also says Jesus is the only way to Universal reconciliation. There are a ton of misconceptions about what Christian ultimate reconciliation is.

I just do not see how a man's free will can trump God's sovereignty as Scripture is clear that God desires all to be saved.

Thank you for the civil response and again I am not trying to change anybody's mind.

Presumably you are talking about Augustine in Enchiridion, but note he's not talking of reconciliation, but of those who were opposed to eternal punishment.

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112. It is quite in vain, then, that some--indeed very many--yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture--but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. "God will not forget," they say, "to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy." This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm.237 But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy,"238 those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, "Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment."239 Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: "But the righteous into life eternal."

But let them suppose, if it pleases them, that, for certain intervals of time, the punishments of the damned are somewhat mitigated. Even so, the wrath of God must be understood as still resting on them. And this is damnation--for this anger, which is not a violent passion in the divine mind, is called "wrath" in God. Yet even in his wrath--his wrath resting on them--he does not "shut up his mercy." This is not to put an end to their eternal afflictions, but rather to apply or interpose some little respite in their torments. For the psalm does not say, "To put an end to his wrath," or, "After his wrath," but, "In his wrath." Now, if this wrath were all there is [in man's damnation], and even if it were present only in the slightest degree conceivable--still, to be lost out of the Kingdom of God, to be an exile from the City of God, to be estranged from the life of God, to suffer loss of the great abundance of God's blessings which he has hidden for those who fear him and prepared for those who hope in him240--this would be a punishment so great that, if it be eternal, no torments that we know could be compared to it, no matter how many ages they continued.

113. The eternal death of the damned--that is, their estrangement from the life of God--will therefore abide without end, and it will be common to them all, no matter what some people, moved by their human feelings, may wish to think about gradations of punishment, or the relief or intermission of their misery. In the same way, the eternal life of the saints will abide forever, and also be common to all of them no matter how different the grades of rank and honor in which they shine forth in their effulgent harmony

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The argument isn't about some sort of reconciliation, but about eternal punishment.

And Augustine's point, is that even if there isn't physical punishment, to be eternally separated from the Father is equally as bad as any physical punishment.

AgLiving06 said:

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Presumably you are talking about Augustine in Enchiridion, but note he's not talking of reconciliation, but of those who were opposed to eternal punishment.

Quote:

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112. It is quite in vain, then, that some--indeed very many--yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture--but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. "God will not forget," they say, "to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy." This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm.237 But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy,"238 those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, "Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment."239 Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: "But the righteous into life eternal."

But let them suppose, if it pleases them, that, for certain intervals of time, the punishments of the damned are somewhat mitigated. Even so, the wrath of God must be understood as still resting on them. And this is damnation--for this anger, which is not a violent passion in the divine mind, is called "wrath" in God. Yet even in his wrath--his wrath resting on them--he does not "shut up his mercy." This is not to put an end to their eternal afflictions, but rather to apply or interpose some little respite in their torments. For the psalm does not say, "To put an end to his wrath," or, "After his wrath," but, "In his wrath." Now, if this wrath were all there is [in man's damnation], and even if it were present only in the slightest degree conceivable--still, to be lost out of the Kingdom of God, to be an exile from the City of God, to be estranged from the life of God, to suffer loss of the great abundance of God's blessings which he has hidden for those who fear him and prepared for those who hope in him240--this would be a punishment so great that, if it be eternal, no torments that we know could be compared to it, no matter how many ages they continued.

113. The eternal death of the damned--that is, their estrangement from the life of God--will therefore abide without end, and it will be common to them all, no matter what some people, moved by their human feelings, may wish to think about gradations of punishment, or the relief or intermission of their misery. In the same way, the eternal life of the saints will abide forever, and also be common to all of them no matter how different the grades of rank and honor in which they shine forth in their effulgent harmony

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The argument isn't about some sort of reconciliation, but about eternal punishment.

And Augustine's point, is that even if there isn't physical punishment, to be eternally separated from the Father is equally as bad as any physical punishment.

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Fair enough.

If I believed in ECT hell I could not sleep knowing there might be something I could do to keep them from going there,

I do not understand the Christians who believe in ECT hell being so casual about it.

The fear of hell is called hadephobia.

Hadephobia should not be part of a Christian's life. If you have placed your trust in Jesus Christ, you are saved from that fate.

Believers have this promise: "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them."

Revelation 20:6

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

1 John 4:18

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Presumably you are talking about Augustine in Enchiridion, but note he's not talking of reconciliation, but of those who were opposed to eternal punishment.

The argument isn't about some sort of reconciliation, but about eternal punishment.

And Augustine's point, is that even if there isn't physical punishment, to be eternally separated from the Father is equally as bad as any physical punishment.

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Fair enough.

If I believed in ECT hell I could not sleep knowing there might be something I could do to keep them from going there,

I do not understand the Christians who believe in ECT hell being so casual about it.

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Who says we're casual about it? One of the beautiful things about orthodoxy is the constant prayers asking for forgiveness and mercy. There is no room for false humility or boasting about going to heaven. Do the cycle of repentance, participate in prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. There's an icon of a Saint Silouan at our church and he's holding a scroll with the writing, 'Thus says the Lord, Keep your mind in hell and despair not.'

It was part of a vision from God as St. Silouan saw demons and struggled with pride. And God's answer was that the proud suffer demons, but to keep your mind in hell and despair not.'

Its a tangential story to your discussion which is solely focused on ECT but I think it reiterates a couple of things that we see in the new testament.
A) God is comfortable with us struggling with the thought of hell. There's both a carrot and a stick here keeping us on a path towards theosis. Don't try to exegesis our way out of hell existing, or that the wicked don't go there, or that we don't deserve to go there because of our sin.
B) 'Keep your mind in hell, AND despair not' is a great comfort. Perform the cycle of repentance, participate in the life of the church, be humble in all things but take comfort in that these things are doing the things they aught to. They are advancing you in theosis. Despair not.



By the way, St. Silouan is the name of the Orthodox Church out on hwy 30 in College Station. You interested in trying it out? I'll make the trip up there one sunday, I've been meaning to go.

one MEEN Ag said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Presumably you are talking about Augustine in Enchiridion, but note he's not talking of reconciliation, but of those who were opposed to eternal punishment.

The argument isn't about some sort of reconciliation, but about eternal punishment.

And Augustine's point, is that even if there isn't physical punishment, to be eternally separated from the Father is equally as bad as any physical punishment.

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Fair enough.

If I believed in ECT hell I could not sleep knowing there might be something I could do to keep them from going there,

I do not understand the Christians who believe in ECT hell being so casual about it.

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Who says we're casual about it? One of the beautiful things about orthodoxy is the constant prayers asking for forgiveness and mercy. There is no room for false humility or boasting about going to heaven. Do the cycle of repentance, participate in prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. There's an icon of a Saint Silouan at our church and he's holding a scroll with the writing, 'Thus says the Lord, Keep your mind in hell and despair not.'

It was part of a vision from God as St. Silouan saw demons and struggled with pride. And God's answer was that the proud suffer demons, but to keep your mind in hell and despair not.'

Its a tangential story to your discussion which is solely focused on ECT but I think it reiterates a couple of things that we see in the new testament.
A) God is comfortable with us struggling with the thought of hell. There's both a carrot and a stick here keeping us on a path towards theosis. Don't try to exegesis our way out of hell existing, or that the wicked don't go there, or that we don't deserve to go there because of our sin.
B) 'Keep your mind in hell, AND despair not' is a great comfort. Perform the cycle of repentance, participate in the life of the church, be humble in all things but take comfort in that these things are doing the things they aught to. They are advancing you in theosis. Despair not.



By the way, St. Silouan is the name of the Orthodox Church out on hwy 30 in College Station. You interested in trying it out? I'll make the trip up there one sunday, I've been meaning to go.

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Thanks for that. As you know, I suffer occasional bouts of scrupulosity, the irrational fear of hell, even though I know the Lord and have a wonderful prayer life and ministry at my church and through my profession.

By the grace of God, I am in a much better place mentally and spiritually now. Much more peace and joy, This link pretty much mirrors my journey.

https://churchandmentalhealth.com/how-god-used-my-struggles-with-scrupulosity-to-teach-me-his-amazing-grace/

And appreciate the invitation but I am convinced that God wants me to be at Brazos Fellowship for a myriad of reasons.

Shalom.