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dermdoc
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In reply to Mostly Peaceful • 2:42p, 1/20/25
AG
Again, it all depends on how you define evil and sin. Just like I posted above.

William Lane Craig and I believe the Reformed/Calvinist belief that God intentionally creates human beings in His image with no chance to avoid eternal torment attributes sin and evil to God.

Reformed/Calvinists evidently do not think that is sin or evil. I will admit I do not understand.
And I believe God is Sovereign. I also believe He does not cause sin or evil. And double predestination is evil.

And as for your Scripture about not being able to resist God, that is true. But what is God's character as revealed by Jesus Christ?

God can do anything He wants. But that does not mean He will. We are under the new covenant of grace.
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Mostly Peaceful
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In reply to dermdoc • 2:55p, 1/20/25
Quote:
William Lane Craig and I believe the Reformed/Calvinist belief that God intentionally creates human beings in His image with no chance to avoid eternal torment attributes sin and evil to God.
This is not a Reformed belief. It is a conclusion others draw when it comes to the Reformed belief of God's sovereignty in salvation. Admittedly, it is a logical conclusion, but that doesn't mean it must be true. I believe that God is sovereign and yet man is still responsible. That's just one item on a long list of things about God that I don't/can't understand.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Mostly Peaceful • 3:00p, 1/20/25
AG
Mostly Peaceful said:
Quote:
William Lane Craig and I believe the Reformed/Calvinist belief that God intentionally creates human beings in His image with no chance to avoid eternal torment attributes sin and evil to God.
This is not a Reformed belief. It is a conclusion others draw when it comes to the Reformed belief of God's sovereignty in salvation. Admittedly, it is a logical conclusion, but that doesn't mean it must be true. I believe that God is sovereign and yet man is still responsible. That's just one item on a long list of things about God that I don't/can't understand.
Do not Reformed/calvinists believe that God creates human beings who are pre ordained to eternal torment? With no chance of salvation?

That is what I glean from my reading.

And how is man responsible with the doctrines of total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistible grace? Or do you not agree with those?

That is why Craig uses the term "incomprehensible" to describe Calvinism. It logically makes no sense and, as Craig states, does not align with Scripture when Scripture is taken as a whole.

And that is the disconnect. I read Reformed/Calvinist theology and then ask my Reformed acquaintances about the theology and they say that is not Reformed theology.

Seriously, I do not get it.
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Zobel
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In reply to Mostly Peaceful • 3:46p, 1/20/25
AG
this is a pretty amazing punt.
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Mostly Peaceful
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In reply to Zobel • 4:09p, 1/20/25
Zobel said:
this is a pretty amazing punt.
Which is exactly how the article portrays it. And I'm fine with that. Again, lots of things I can't understand about the Creator of the universe and His ways.
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Mostly Peaceful
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In reply to dermdoc • 4:11p, 1/20/25
dermdoc said:
Mostly Peaceful said:
Quote:
William Lane Craig and I believe the Reformed/Calvinist belief that God intentionally creates human beings in His image with no chance to avoid eternal torment attributes sin and evil to God.
This is not a Reformed belief. It is a conclusion others draw when it comes to the Reformed belief of God's sovereignty in salvation. Admittedly, it is a logical conclusion, but that doesn't mean it must be true. I believe that God is sovereign and yet man is still responsible. That's just one item on a long list of things about God that I don't/can't understand.
Do not Reformed/calvinists believe that God creates human beings who are pre ordained to eternal torment? With no chance of salvation?

That is what I glean from my reading.

And how is man responsible with the doctrines of total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistible grace? Or do you not agree with those?

That is why Craig uses the term "incomprehensible" to describe Calvinism. It logically makes no sense and, as Craig states, does not align with Scripture when Scripture is taken as a whole.

And that is the disconnect. I read Reformed/Calvinist theology and then ask my Reformed acquaintances about the theology and they say that is not Reformed theology.

Seriously, I do not get it.
I believe it is only the Hyper-Calvinist that says God creates people with no chance of salvation. I think Scripture is abundantly clear that salvation is offered to all men.
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Zobel
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In reply to Mostly Peaceful • 4:26p, 1/20/25
AG
By that method we could say literally anything is true, then say but that doesn't mean what it says, God is incomprehensible.

What is the point?
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10andBOUNCE
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4:27p, 1/20/25
AG
Are all men created with an equal opportunity to obtain salvation? Everyone on an equal playing field?
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Zobel • 4:28p, 1/20/25
AG
Zobel said:
By that method we could say literally anything is true, then say but that doesn't mean what it says, God is incomprehensible.

What is the point?
The point is that we (humans) try to put him in a box and have all of our doctrines wrapped up nicely in a bow. Sometimes it isn't that easy aka not possible.
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Mostly Peaceful
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In reply to Zobel • 4:29p, 1/20/25
Well of course whatever we believe should be supported by Scripture.
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Zobel
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In reply to Mostly Peaceful • 4:31p, 1/20/25
AG
Why? God is incomprehensible. Scripture is incomprehensible. Logic is out the window whenever its conclusions are inconvenient.
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Zobel
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 4:32p, 1/20/25
AG
Or, if you finish your argument and it is contradictory or logically inconsistent, it could be false?
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Mostly Peaceful
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 4:32p, 1/20/25
10andBOUNCE said:
Are all men created with an equal opportunity to obtain salvation? Everyone on an equal playing field?


This to me? No, I don't believe we're on an equal playing field. I am very blessed to be born into the family I was.
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dermdoc
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 4:35p, 1/20/25
AG
10andBOUNCE said:
Zobel said:
By that method we could say literally anything is true, then say but that doesn't mean what it says, God is incomprehensible.

What is the point?
The point is that we (humans) try to put him in a box and have all of our doctrines wrapped up nicely in a bow. Sometimes it isn't that easy aka not possible.
With all due respect, Reformed/Calvinism theology does that more than almost any Christian strain of theology. Unless they really do not believe TULIP.
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to dermdoc • 4:37p, 1/20/25
AG
Well, in my opinion, the jump to believe bread and wine becoming flesh and blood is much greater than believing in sovereign, electing grace.
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to Mostly Peaceful • 4:44p, 1/20/25
AG
Mostly Peaceful said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Are all men created with an equal opportunity to obtain salvation? Everyone on an equal playing field?


This to me? No, I don't believe we're on an equal playing field. I am very blessed to be born into the family I was.
This isn't directed towards you, but if we aren't all on the same, level playing field, that doesn't seem very fair. Seems more fair if God was an equal opportunity employer. So while calvinism makes God into a big monster, this still makes God into a little monster at least, right?
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dermdoc
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 4:55p, 1/20/25
AG
10andBOUNCE said:
Well, in my opinion, the jump to believe bread and wine becoming flesh and blood is much greater than believing in sovereign, electing grace.
You need a bigger box.
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Mostly Peaceful
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 5:19p, 1/20/25
10andBOUNCE said:
Mostly Peaceful said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Are all men created with an equal opportunity to obtain salvation? Everyone on an equal playing field?


This to me? No, I don't believe we're on an equal playing field. I am very blessed to be born into the family I was.
This isn't directed towards you, but if we aren't all on the same, level playing field, that doesn't seem very fair. Seems more fair if God was an equal opportunity employer. So while calvinism makes God into a big monster, this still makes God into a little monster at least, right?
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dermdoc
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In reply to Mostly Peaceful • 5:31p, 1/20/25
AG
Mostly Peaceful said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Mostly Peaceful said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Are all men created with an equal opportunity to obtain salvation? Everyone on an equal playing field?


This to me? No, I don't believe we're on an equal playing field. I am very blessed to be born into the family I was.
This isn't directed towards you, but if we aren't all on the same, level playing field, that doesn't seem very fair. Seems more fair if God was an equal opportunity employer. So while calvinism makes God into a big monster, this still makes God into a little monster at least, right?
With all due respect, this is all deflection. Either you believe TULIP which means God pre ordains His created human beings to eternal torment, or you do not.

This is not hard.

And y'all always deflect.

Weird
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to dermdoc • 5:34p, 1/20/25
AG
Either way, we can all find common ground with the fact that God creates some that will be in eternal torment.
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dermdoc
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 5:45p, 1/20/25
AG
10andBOUNCE said:
Either way, we can all find common ground with the fact that God creates some that will be in eternal torment.
Disagree. I believe "hell" is a rehab not an eternal conscious torment chamber.

But we have a different view on the character of God my friend.

My God does not pre ordain people to hell. And that is a huge chasm.
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dermdoc
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 5:58p, 1/20/25
AG
10andBOUNCE said:
Either way, we can all find common ground with the fact that God creates some that will be in eternal torment.
And I will be honest, this sentiment disgusts me. I love you my brother but this is bad theology.
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TeddyAg0422
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:00p, 1/20/25
AG
If hell is only a rehab facility, what's the point of trying to live the best life possible to get into heaven? You'd just be getting there ultimately anyways…. Now purgatory on the other hand is the rehab facility
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:06p, 1/20/25
AG
dermdoc said:
10andBOUNCE said:
Either way, we can all find common ground with the fact that God creates some that will be in eternal torment.
And I will be honest, this sentiment disgusts me. I love you my brother but this is bad theology.
I am being pretty sarcastic at this point
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dermdoc
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In reply to TeddyAg0422 • 6:07p, 1/20/25
AG
TeddyAg0422 said:
If hell is only a rehab facility, what's the point of trying to live the best life possible to get into heaven? You'd just be getting there ultimately anyways…. Now purgatory on the other hand is the rehab facility
Because when you are born again, you do not want to sin. It is amazing how grace rather than condemnation produces more fruit.

Hanging hell over people's head does not produce righteousness.
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TeddyAg0422
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:12p, 1/20/25
AG
I agree with you 100% that going around and condemning people to hell is extremely ineffective and damaging to people trying to find their way. I don't think that removes it as a reality though. We have our chance on earth to choose or to reject God. If we don't accept his gift, hell is deserved
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Mostly Peaceful
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:13p, 1/20/25
Apologies derm, no mean to offend or deflect. That just brought me back to my childhood. I truly appreciate your insight.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to TeddyAg0422 • 6:14p, 1/20/25
AG
TeddyAg0422 said:
I agree with you 100% that going around and condemning people to hell is extremely ineffective and damaging to people trying to find their way. I don't think that removes it as a reality though. We have our chance on earth to choose or to reject God. If we don't accept his gift, hell is deserved


Perhaps better said, hell is chosen by the damned.
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TeddyAg0422
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In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad • 6:15p, 1/20/25
AG
Correct. Better said for sure
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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6:28p, 1/20/25
AG
Scatter shooting here:

God is inscrutable except to the extent he has chosen to reveal himself to us. Putting aside the various ways in which God has and continues to reveal himself to us (his church, scripture, nature, etc), if we just focus on scripture we can rationally discern certain truths about God. I don't see where prior to Luther and The Bondage of the Will and Calvin and his progeny's "reformed" double pre-destination idea the Church ever looked at its Scripture and conceived of such things. It always looked at the Tradition it received from the apostles and handed down to their successors and the Scriptures that it canonized in light of that Tradition and never did it teach that God creates certain people just so he can send them to hell.

I think the idea of double pre-destination is an artifact of the novel soteriology that Luther proposed and Calvin then developed to what he and his followers saw as its logical conclusion.
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Zobel
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In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad • 6:32p, 1/20/25
AG
Excellent
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dermdoc
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In reply to TeddyAg0422 • 6:37p, 1/20/25
AG
TeddyAg0422 said:
I agree with you 100% that going around and condemning people to hell is extremely ineffective and damaging to people trying to find their way. I don't think that removes it as a reality though. We have our chance on earth to choose or to reject God. If we don't accept his gift, hell is deserved
Why?
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TeddyAg0422
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6:39p, 1/20/25
AG
As a result of our original sin inherited from Adam, none of us are worthy of the Kingdom of God. We're all sinners deserving of hell that are in need of God's grace
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dermdoc
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In reply to TeddyAg0422 • 6:45p, 1/20/25
AG
TeddyAg0422 said:
As a result of our original sin inherited from Adam, none of us are worthy of the Kingdom of God. We're all sinners deserving of hell that are in need of God's grace
So who goes to hell? What if you are an orphan in India who dies?
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TeddyAg0422
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:47p, 1/20/25
AG
"Infants who die without baptism are entrusted by the Church to the mercy of God." This is a direct quote I just took from the Catechism which I'm conveniently reading right now haha
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