As a non-Catholic, am I correct to say the official view is that if you are Catholic and were married in the Catholic Church, if you get remarried outside the Catholic Church, you are fornicating?
Does it also follow logically that if you and your wife are not Catholic that the marriage is not recognized and that you and your wife are fornicating? Therefore, if your family comes from a long line of non-Catholics, then you come from a long long line of fornicators, and therefore you're a bisterd.
Let's call a spade of spade?!

The Catholic Church recognizes the sacraments of other Christian denominations including others such as baptisms. The biggest exception I can think of is that of not recognizing Mormon baptism (I would explain deeper but I don't want to derail the thread).

Getting an annulment is the equivalent of getting "un-baptized". I think we, all denominations, would agree you can't get "un-baptized". As such, you have to prove that the sacrament was done in a manner that renders it invalid. The most common thing in a successful annulment is a spouse that is abusive or continues to abuse drugs & alcohol. The idea being that that abusive individual never intended on properly fulfilling their duty as a spouse and lied about it rendering the sacrament invalid.

ETA: There are no *******s. We are children of God and made in his image.

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Does it also follow logically that if you and your wife are not Catholic that the marriage is not recognized and that you and your wife are fornicating?

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No.

FIDO95 said:

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The Catholic Church recognizes the sacraments of other Christian denominations including others such as baptisms. The biggest exception I can think of is that of not recognizing Mormon baptism (I would explain deeper but I don't want to derail the thread).

Getting an annulment is the equivalent of getting "un-baptized". I think we, all denominations, would agree you can't get "un-baptized". As such, you have to prove that the sacrament was done in a manner that renders it invalid. The most common thing in a successful annulment is a spouse that is abusive or continues to abuse drugs & alcohol. The idea being that that abusive individual never intended on properly fulfilling their duty as a spouse and lied about it rendering the sacrament invalid.

ETA: There are no *******s. We are children of God and made in his image.

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They're going to look more at the day of the marriage and the lead up to the wedding more than what took place during the marriage itself. They're much more concerned with whether the marriage was valid in the first place rather than whether the years following the wedding sucked

If you're Catholic, and married outside the Church it means you're not in a valid marriage because it lacks form. To receive the sacrament of matrimony with another woman requires a declaration of nullity, but it's normally easy to get because it's cut and dry. Most Bishops allow this to be handled at the Parish level. If you were married in the Church, there has to be some other grounds for annulment. Like one person never intended to be faithful, or someone lied about their desire or ability to procreate.

Marriage is indissoluble definitionally. So you either married your ex or you didn't. If you're in a valid marriage, you can't get married again.

So if you're not Catholic, and married to a non-catholic and you get divorced, and then want to marry a Catholic lady in the church who has had her previous marriage annuled, are you likely to be allowed to marry within the Catholic Church if you do not convert?
I know somebody in Michigan, who was not Catholic and was never married. He was a protestant and he talk to the priest, and the priest allowed them to get married to this Catholic woman in the Catholic Church.
He didn't have to go to classes or anything, just a 15 minute conversation with the priest that had no strings attached. He didn't have to promise to raise his stepson Catholic or to go to classes. Of course, he could not take the holy Catholic communion.

BartInLA said:

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So if you're not Catholic, and married to a non-catholic and you get divorced, and then want to marry a Catholic lady in the church who has had her previous marriage annuled, are you likely to be allowed to marry within the Catholic Church if you do not convert?
I know somebody in Michigan, who was not Catholic and was never married. He was a protestant and he talk to the priest, and the priest allowed them to get married to this Catholic woman in the Catholic Church.
He didn't have to go to classes or anything, just a 15 minute conversation with the priest that had no strings attached. He didn't have to promise to raise his stepson Catholic or to go to classes. Of course, he could not take the holy Catholic communion.

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You're mixing different scenarios

In your first paragraph you have a guy MARRIED, then divorced, prior marriage not annulled. Of course the Catholic Church is not going to marry him without an annulment

your second paragraph scenario is different. the guy was NEVER MARRIED, and the woman had a marriage annulled. In that situation, neither party has been in a previous valid marriage. So yes, they can get dispensation from the bishop to marry in the Catholic Church. Typically, they're gonna want a commitment to raise a kid Catholic, but who knows what the conversation was. Maybe they can't have kids anymore. Maybe the bishop understands the stepson is not the husband-to-be's kid, and the husband-to-be is not in a position to make that call. Why would he be? Shouldn't the biological father be the male to make that decision?

I had a former boss who was a Catholic and was on his 3rd marriage...previous 2 had been annulled through the church, because that was important to him. He said annulments are very expensive.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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I had a former boss who was a Catholic and was on his 3rd marriage...previous 2 had been annulled through the church, because that was important to him. He said annulments are very expensive.

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They don't have to be. Some people hire lawyers to assist them, but it doesn't have to be expensive. Sometimes they are quick and easy. Sometimes they can drag on for years and put the petitioner through hell

I'm not really sure exactly how everything works, but everything used to have to be approved by the Vatican, and you could actually hire a lawyer in the Vatican to assist you

Pope Francis has given local bishops a lot more authority in making these decisions now, so its been streamlined to an extent

I think her boss was telling a joke. He was really talking about division of assets from his civil divorce. He's reconciling the saying "divorce is very expensive" with his belief that divorce is not a sacramental reality.

Bob Lee said:

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I think her boss was telling a joke. He was really talking about division of assets from his civil divorce. He's reconciling the saying "divorce is very expensive" with his belief that divorce is not a sacramental reality.

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No, he was not joking. He was talking specifically about it costing a lot of money to go through the annulment process with the church.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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I think her boss was telling a joke. He was really talking about division of assets from his civil divorce. He's reconciling the saying "divorce is very expensive" with his belief that divorce is not a sacramental reality.

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No, he was not joking. He was talking specifically about it costing a lot of money to go through the annulment process with the church.

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Hmm. Not sure about that. My parents' "marriage" was annulled. The actual annulment cost them nothing. Maybe some dioceses charge some admin fee, but I can't imagine it's THAT much.

i think he had to go the vatican lawyer route and stuff. It has been a long while, but it was my understanding he had to pay basically everyone involved. However, he definitely was not joking.

When I was in grad school my wife and I lived with an older Jewish lady who traveled extensively. Our unpaid job, but with free rent, etc., was to basically walk the dogs and take the house owner to and from the airport. She was wealthy - got 7.5 million from her divorce and was still receiving $10,000 a month in California alimony. I learned that her large group of friends were pretty much all Jewish, but they were also really secular. I mean, I think many of them were technically atheists.
Anyway, one day Passover was approaching and she wanted to sell me all of her leaven products for one dollar and then once the holy period was over, I would sell them back to her. I could own them as a Gentile. They would still be in her kitchen, but they would belong to me.
I didn't like the loophole nature of it all. It seems like, perhaps a minority, but that some annulments feel that way. Like say you have had three annulments and a total of 11 children. So forgive me, but the optics from an outsider like me was that "so these marriages never really happened." Now I know that's not how it goes, but I think some outsiders find the idea of annulments to be a bit shady. I'm not saying that this applies to most of the cases, but looking at some of the comments above one can't help but think of Martin Luther's protest. Like everyone's got their hand out for money and you have to have a lawyer in the Vatican. Not that it matters, but surely some Catholics realize that the optics aren't always good.

BartInLA said:

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When I was in grad school my wife and I lived with an older Jewish lady who traveled extensively. Our unpaid job, but with free rent, etc., was to basically walk the dogs and take the house owner to and from the airport. She was wealthy - got 7.5 million from her divorce and was still receiving $10,000 a month in California alimony. I learned that her large group of friends were pretty much all Jewish, but they were also really secular. I mean, I think many of them were technically atheists.
Anyway, one day Passover was approaching and she wanted to sell me all of her leaven products for one dollar and then once the holy period was over, I would sell them back to her. I could own them as a Gentile. They would still be in her kitchen, but they would belong to me.
I didn't like the loophole nature of it all. It seems like, perhaps a minority, but that some annulments feel that way. Like say you have had three annulments and a total of 11 children. So forgive me, but the optics from an outsider like me was that "so these marriages never really happened." Now I know that's not how it goes, but I think some outsiders find the idea of annulments to be a bit shady. I'm not saying that this applies to most of the cases, but looking at some of the comments above one can't help but think of Martin Luther's protest. Like everyone's got their hand out for money and you have to have a lawyer in the Vatican. Not that it matters, but surely some Catholics realize that the optics aren't always good.

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Not at all. If you don't want to get an annulment, don't get an annulment. Just go to church somewhere else.

But the fact is, the gospels are pretty explicit and airtight on the issue of remarriage

The Catholic Church, unlike other denominations, just chooses not to ignore them

Try reading them.

Choosing to not ignore them unless the price is right? In PRACTICE there is often NOTHING airtight about SOME annulments. Pony up good money and get a good Vatican lawyer and you'll be alright.

Ok I'm going to probably share more than I'd like here, but this issue has been present in my life so I'll put it out there. I'd ask for a little grace here as this was a difficult time in my life that I never thought I'd really be sharing on texags.

I got married 10 years ago in a Methodist church to a woman I thought I'd be with the rest of my life. My parents had gotten divorced so I had always sworn that I would never get divorced based on how it affected me.

2.5 yrs into our marriage I find out she is sleeping with a married man. We go to a priest who asks me to forgive her which I said I did. For the next 6 weeks I catch her multiple times still talking to and presumably sleeping with this guy.

So I do what I think all of us would do at that point and divorce her.

Two years ago I've been dating a wonderful woman who is catholic and we decide to get married. I look into catholic annulments and from the best I can tell in order to get one you have to have a reason that the marriage was never valid.

Rubbed me the wrong way as I didn't want to pretend my marriage wasn't valid. It went horribly and broke my heart, but I am under the belief that when we stood there and said our vows, I think we both meant it.

My current wife and I ended up getting married by a Methodist priest and are happy with that.

I know that there are places in the gospel that say you can get divorced due to adultery. there are some places that don't give adultery as an out.

I guess my question is if I was catholic, how would my experience have turned out? Should I have stayed married to an adulterer who wouldn't stop? Or should I never have been allowed to get married again?

I love a lot of things about the Catholic Church but sometimes I think the tradition of it all can present some problems for modern day issues. If I'm thinking through it honestly I think if my issue has happened in biblical times they probably would've stoned her (and him) to death and it would be a moot (moo) point.

I would suggest it may be because the optics are based on misinformation. So far we have one story on this thread with a guy who had three annulments and they were super expensive.

We can only speculate on how he got to 3 (would love more detail there) but expensive is relative to everyone. Some people see a $50 steak as expensive. Some people see a $20 steak as expensive. Some people buy $100 steak like it's not a big deal at all.

The facts are that annulments are really affordable, and the request is to make them more so. https://www.brides.com/how-to-obtain-an-annulment-through-the-catholic-church-1102452#:~:text=a%20timely%20fashion.-,The%20Cost%20of%20an%20Annulment%20in%20the%20Catholic%20Church,have%20to%20pay%20a%20fee.

Lastly, annulments are seen in the historical church as different than divorce, and is even noted in a regional council as just being a mundane fact. We can also look at how an entire denomination came to be (Anglicans) due to the fact that a king wasn't granted an annulment, and therefore could not remarry. I get the modern Protestant sees annulment as "Catholic divorce" but it's factually inaccurate.

Appreciate you being sensitive to it. And you bring up a good point. Maybe she never intended to uphold the vows of marriage. Honestly it might be easier to think of it that way on my end as it would make a lot more sense.

But knowing her crazy ass and how she acted through the divorce process. She would swear up and down that she got married for the right reasons and just "made a mistake"


I do know when I looked into annulments part of the process was to have the committee interview the ex wife. That was when I knew it for sure wasn't for me lol.

Couldn't imagine having her knowing I needed something from her.

These are just ****ty situations all around unfortunately. Part of being in a fallen world.

T dizl televizl said:

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Appreciate you being sensitive to it. And you bring up a good point. Maybe she never intended to uphold the vows of marriage. Honestly it might be easier to think of it that way on my end as it would make a lot more sense.

But knowing her crazy ass and how she acted through the divorce process. She would swear up and down that she got married for the right reasons and just "made a mistake"


I do know when I looked into annulments part of the process was to have the committee interview the ex wife. That was when I knew it for sure wasn't for me lol.

Couldn't imagine having her knowing I needed something from her.

These are just ****ty situations all around unfortunately. Part of being in a fallen world.

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This is something I can resonate with from experience with a college girlfriend. Women (and men) like this do exist, and as to how that comes into play in the annulment process, idk.

We do have a wonderful man in our parish that recently remarried after his ex-wife's passing. Based on the little he's willing to talk about, it seems the annulment process went that way for him. He tried and she blocked it all the way. Up to and including not remarrying herself. I'm not the judge, but I prayerfully hope he has many jewels in his crown one day if the little he has said is accurate.

I'm sorry you went through that. I don't want to presume anything. I do marriage counseling frequently for a living. In my opinion, true love is much more about taking actions than it is a feeling. I know that while I was a great boyfriend in my youth, I didn't really practice love until I was 32. Love requires effort. The early periods were easy. Infatuation & hormones.
I had to get honest with myself and realize that my first two long-term girlfriends I did not truly love. Again, I was a great, great boyfriend and thought I was in love, and I was in love, but I didn't consistently take sufficient loving efforts. They certainly didn't either.

My mother left the Church because she couldn't come to terms with the idea that she was never married to my father (she initiated the divorce). But she couldn't wrap her head around the idea that 2 children were the product of their relationship, she always believed they were married, but they weren't. She's recently come back to the Church. Deo gratias, but I think she still struggles to come to grips with it and has just chosen to submit.

If you are truly in a valid marriage, then you can't remarry.

I know a lot of people with difficult stories kind of like yours and I struggle with that teaching for these realities. How do you put the toothpaste back in the tube when things come so unraveled? My uncle is Catholic married to a Catholic who was previously married (not annulled), and they have 2 children. They've been married for close to 40 years, and I think this haunts him. I have no answers for stuff like that. I think in your case The Banned makes a compelling argument that she never intended to be faithful though.