Question for Calvinists

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Thaddeus73
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I'm currently meeting with a Calvinist at Jim's once a month to discuss the differences between Calvinism and Catholicism.

To help me out, can any Calvinist on this forum explain to me how we are Totally Depraved, since the bible says that
we are made in the image and likeness of God,
He who is united to Christ becomes one spirit with Him,
He will abide in me and I in Him,
and that Jesus is the vine and we are the branches.

Sincere question, and thanks in advance...
10andBOUNCE
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Quote:

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. (WCF 9.3)


The idea of "total" in total depravity doesn't mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person.

The term "total depravity" was coined to mean that sin affects the whole person, that the total essence of our humanity is fallen. That is, our minds are fallen, our wills are fallen, our bodies are fallen. The whole person is caught up in this fallenness.

We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spiritindeed, the whole personhave been infected by the power of sin.

So what is required for us to be conformed to the image of Christ is not simply some small adjustments or behavioral modifications, but nothing less than renovation from the inside. We need to be regenerated, to be made over again, to be quickened by the power of the Spirit. The only way in which a person can escape this radical situation is by the Holy Spirit's changing the core, the heart. However, even that change does not instantly vanquish sin. The complete elimination of sin awaits our glorification in heaven.

Psalm 5:9
For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Isaiah 1:5-6
Why will you still be struck down? Why will you continue to rebel? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and raw wounds; they are not pressed out or bound up or softened with oil.

Rom. 8:7-8
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom. 3:12
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Col. 2:13
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

John 6:44
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65
65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John 3:3
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:5-6
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Cor. 2:14
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Tit. 3:3-5
3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Thaddeus73
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Thanks - I certainly agree with the cure, although I disagree with the term "Totally depraved," which isn't in the bible...

I think that most of the time he and I are in violent agreement, with our differences ensuing from the different language and terminology we use. For instance, I believe that we are all sinful creatures, not only because of Adam's sin, but because of my weak flesh, the temptations of satan, and the carnal allurements of the world. These 3 things, according to St. John, lead to lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

Whether or not the term "total depravity" and being a sinful creature are synonymous I will have to work out. But for sure, I believe we have the free will to overcome that state of life...

And Thanks....
dermdoc
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I have misunderstood what was meant by the Calvinist view of total depravity. But I agree with Thaddeus that we have free will to choose Jesus.
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10andBOUNCE
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Welcome. I applaud your efforts to have candid conversations with "the scourge of Protestantism."

It's like we are so close, but yet so far away…
Thaddeus73
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Me too...It's like when Catholics call Mary a mediatrix...Protestants believe that we are adding another mediator to Jesus Christ...
Thaddeus73
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Quote:

Welcome. I applaud your efforts to have candid conversations with "the scourge of Protestantism."

It's like we are so close, but yet so far away…


Thanks - He left a flyer on my truck at HEB inviting me to come to his church..BUT, the flyer had so many lies about the Catholic Church in it that I felt he needed instruction on what we really believe, rather that all of his canards and lies that have been propagated about us Catholics throughout the last 500 years. We have become good friends, and I actually have him reading the early Church fathers now, who he didn't even know existed before...
dermdoc
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Thaddeus73 said:

Quote:

Welcome. I applaud your efforts to have candid conversations with "the scourge of Protestantism."

It's like we are so close, but yet so far away…


Thanks - He left a flyer on my truck at HEB inviting me to come to his church..BUT, the flyer had so many lies about the Catholic Church in it that I felt he needed instruction on what we really believe, rather that all of his canards and lies that have been propagated about us Catholics throughout the last 500 years. We have become good friends, and I actually have him reading the early Church fathers now, who he didn't even know existed before...


Growing up in a Southern Baptist church I know what you are talking about. Lots of lies about what Catholics believe. And I never knew what a church father was until I started reading and learning on this forum.
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10andBOUNCE
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I think every group has built in these false misunderstandings of each other. However each sect also has their own who promulgates some of these things. I've shared many times my parents who grew up in the Catholic Church in Chicago and parochial schools. The basic gospel was foreign to them until they had moved to Texas and witnessed to by some neighbors. And I know that road goes both ways also.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

I think every group has built in these false misunderstandings of each other. However each sect also has their own who promulgates some of these things. I've shared many times my parents who grew up in the Catholic Church in Chicago and parochial schools. The basic gospel was foreign to them until they had moved to Texas and witnessed to by some neighbors. And I know that road goes both ways also.


That is incredibly sad. We need to try to present the Gospel as often as we can.

And praise the Lord they heard the Gospel.
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Thaddeus73
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All so true...The USCCB accepted billions of dollars from Biden for illegal immigration, and all of sudden, it seemed to me, there wasn't any emphasis on Jesus, salvation, the Eucharist, etc., but rather on "social justice."
goatchze
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Thaddeus73 said:

Thanks - I certainly agree with the cure, although I disagree with the term "Totally depraved," which isn't in the bible...

I think that most of the time he and I are in violent agreement, with our differences ensuing from the different language and terminology we use. For instance, I believe that we are all sinful creatures, not only because of Adam's sin, but because of my weak flesh, the temptations of satan, and the carnal allurements of the world. These 3 things, according to St. John, lead to lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.

Whether or not the term "total depravity" and being a sinful creature are synonymous I will have to work out. But for sure, I believe we have the free will to overcome that state of life...

And Thanks....


Many, if not most, theological terms are not literally stated in the Bible. They are used to describe ideas or "truths" that are in the Bible, as well as to provide categories of distinction for theological discourse. This is especially helpful if you're discussing systematic theology.

For example, we have that other thread about the Orthodox church's beliefs on heaven and hell. If someone in the western church said, "I don't believe in hell", you might reflexively think that is an abhorrently ignorant thing to say or believe. If they then say, "I think annihilationism has its merits", they're communicating a richer position on where they are coming from (even as a minority position).

Of course, the term annihilationism isn't in the Bible.
Thaddeus73
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I agree...It's just a little too strong for me, as I look at a little child, and I certainly don't think of total depravity...Total depravity reminds me of a Hitler or Hefner, but not of my wife or kids...That's all...
goatchze
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Thaddeus73 said:

I agree...It's just a little too strong for me, as I look at a little child, and I certainly don't think of total depravity...Total depravity reminds me of a Hitler or Hefner, but not of my wife or kids...That's all...


One of my biggest issues with "hardcore" Calvinism is the high degree of navel gazing about our brokenness at the expense of rejoicing that God emphatically loves us as His creation, a healthy parent-child relationship being a great analogy for this love.

My experience, at least, in deep East Texas, with two of my best HS friends going on to be SBC ministers. I've always held a more positive view of creation. YMMV depending on who you are talking to.
MisterJones
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Thaddeus73 said:

Thanks - I certainly agree with the cure, although I disagree with the term "Totally depraved," which isn't in the bible...



Do you agree with/use the term "Trinity" even though it never appears in the Bible? Is your issue with the words "total depravity" themselves, or those who ascribe to believe the doctrine?

Here's my quick and simple (and most likely incomplete!) summary of total depravity:

Every man sins because he is a "sinner". He was born that way- it is part of his nature, inherited from Adam. Left to his own devices, man could not & would not choose the things of God.

Fortunately enough for us, God has revealed himself to mankind in a multitude of ways (creation, scripture, His Son, to name a few) and given us a path to redemption & reconciliation if we so choose.

As a Protestant and quasi-Calvinist myself, I'm genuinely curious what the Catholic church teaches on these points?

Thanks for being open & transparent in your discussions and search for truth!
The Banned
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MisterJones said:

Thaddeus73 said:

Thanks - I certainly agree with the cure, although I disagree with the term "Totally depraved," which isn't in the bible...



Do you agree with/use the term "Trinity" even though it never appears in the Bible? Is your issue with the words "total depravity" themselves, or those who ascribe to believe the doctrine?

Here's my quick and simple (and most likely incomplete!) summary of total depravity:

Every man sins because he is a "sinner". He was born that way- it is part of his nature, inherited from Adam. Left to his own devices, man could not & would not choose the things of God.

Fortunately enough for us, God has revealed himself to mankind in a multitude of ways (creation, scripture, His Son, to name a few) and given us a path to redemption & reconciliation if we so choose.

As a Protestant and quasi-Calvinist myself, I'm genuinely curious what the Catholic church teaches on these points?

Thanks for being open & transparent in your discussions and search for truth!


We don't teach total depravity. We teach original sin. We are stil children of God at birth, in the sense that we are made in His image. But we are inclined towards sin because of the original sin of Adam and Eve.

Therefore we are capable of doing good because God is calling ALL of His creation to do His will, even when they can't exactly name Him. This is how we can see atheists or people of different faiths have similar moral values on the "big" things: murder, stealing, rape, etc. We all feel deep down a calling towards something higher.

But we all need Jesus' saving death and resurrection to heal of us of our original wound, our current wounds and the wounds we will inflict in the future. This is why we can still do "good" things outside of Christianity, but we can't heal the "bad" things which is why Christs sacrifice was so necessary for us.

So we have the same cure, as he said, but our definition of the problem differs in a subtle but incredibly important way
Thaddeus73
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IMHO, "Total Depravity" is too negative. Jesus didn't go around telling sinners they were totally depraved. Rather, he left us 2 commandments to love God with all you've got, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Even Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 says that love is more important than even faith. So I think it's more important to stress forgiveness and love in Christ over "Total Depravity."
gordo97
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goatchze said:

Thaddeus73 said:

I agree...It's just a little too strong for me, as I look at a little child, and I certainly don't think of total depravity...Total depravity reminds me of a Hitler or Hefner, but not of my wife or kids...That's all...


One of my biggest issues with "hardcore" Calvinism is the high degree of navel gazing about our brokenness at the expense of rejoicing that God emphatically loves us as His creation, a healthy parent-child relationship being a great analogy for this love.

My experience, at least, in deep East Texas, with two of my best HS friends going on to be SBC ministers. I've always held a more positive view of creation. YMMV depending on who you are talking to.


It was much worse than just "navel gazing" from what i experienced in the past. This group of guys I knew back in the day from 2nd Baptist church in Houston went through a TULIP study together which I missed. Later on I joined them for a different Bible study and it was like they were speaking a different language all of a sudden. They talked about total depravity meaning that every human being is born as utterly filthy and undeserving of anything except for eternity in hell. They used terms like "viper in a diaper" to talk about how even kids are depraved from birth. All I could think was "that doesn't sound like my wife and kids who need God's Grace like anyone else, but they are not filthy trash to be stepped on by God who finds them disgusting"
dermdoc
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gordo97 said:

goatchze said:

Thaddeus73 said:

I agree...It's just a little too strong for me, as I look at a little child, and I certainly don't think of total depravity...Total depravity reminds me of a Hitler or Hefner, but not of my wife or kids...That's all...


One of my biggest issues with "hardcore" Calvinism is the high degree of navel gazing about our brokenness at the expense of rejoicing that God emphatically loves us as His creation, a healthy parent-child relationship being a great analogy for this love.

My experience, at least, in deep East Texas, with two of my best HS friends going on to be SBC ministers. I've always held a more positive view of creation. YMMV depending on who you are talking to.


It was much worse than just "navel gazing" from what i experienced in the past. This group of guys I knew back in the day from 2nd Baptist church in Houston went through a TULIP study together which I missed. Later on I joined them for a different Bible study and it was like they were speaking a different language all of a sudden. They talked about total depravity meaning that every human being is born as utterly filthy and undeserving of anything except for eternity in hell. They used terms like "viper in a diaper" to talk about how even kids are depraved from birth. All I could think was "that doesn't sound like my wife and kids who need God's Grace like anyone else, but they are not filthy trash to be stepped on by God who finds them disgusting"
Fortunately, most people who claim to be Calvinist/Reformed do not actually follow the theology to its logical endpoint of humans being created by a God who arbitrarily pre ordains the vast majority of his created beings to eternal torment. Dwell on that for a while. Knowingly creating human beings like your family only to be pre ordained for eternal torture. Makes Hitler look like a saint. And supposedly somehow for God's glory.

I have tried to believe that theology and it nearly drove me crazy. Was incredibly anxious and unable to sleep hardly at all. Numbed the pain with booze and sleeping pills. Frankly, I do not know how I survived. And all this time was running an incredibly busy derm practice, raising kids, and serving at the church and in the community. A lot of times on an hour or two of sleep.

I would not be able to have kids or fall in love if there was even a chance those folks were pre ordained to eternal torture. Maybe it's me.

All I know is that I am in a much better place now and have a true relationship with the true God. Secure in my salvation and my family's. Active at church and weekly Bible study. No longer terrified of death and eternal torture for me or my loved ones. Thanks be to God. Truly born again,

And I am determined I am never going back to that black hole of despair again.
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10andBOUNCE
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gordo97 said:

They talked about total depravity meaning that every human being is born as utterly filthy and undeserving of anything except for eternity in hell. They used terms like "viper in a diaper" to talk about how even kids are depraved from birth.

This is what I mentioned in another thread; every sect has some that promulgate this twisted and gross version of the real message. Makes me sick hearing this.

As I have already mentioned the idea we are "utterly" filthy is not at all the doctrine of total depravity.

Yes, we are all born undeserving of God's grace and would face eternity in hell if we are not washed in Christ's work on the cross.

This is more about God and his true position in our lives. He is holy and we are not. We need his grace and to be born again. When we more fully understand God's appropriate place (we'll never truly grasp it) then the only conclusion is that we will be able to better acknowledge our standing with Him and can only sit at Jesus's feet and wash them with our tears as the woman did in Luke 7.

Derm- sorry to hear about that experience.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

gordo97 said:

They talked about total depravity meaning that every human being is born as utterly filthy and undeserving of anything except for eternity in hell. They used terms like "viper in a diaper" to talk about how even kids are depraved from birth.

This is what I mentioned in another thread; every sect has some that promulgate this twisted and gross version of the real message. Makes me sick hearing this.

As I have already mentioned the idea we are "utterly" filthy is not at all the doctrine of total depravity.

Yes, we are all born undeserving of God's grace and would face eternity in hell if we are not washed in Christ's work on the cross.

This is more about God and his true position in our lives. He is holy and we are not. We need his grace and to be born again. When we more fully understand God's appropriate place (we'll never truly grasp it) then the only conclusion is that we will be able to better acknowledge our standing with Him and can only sit at Jesus's feet and wash them with our tears as the woman did in Luke 7.

Derm- sorry to hear about that experience.
I got out of my dark place by spending hours reading Scripture and theology. That is what convinced me Reformed/Calvinist theology is not correct.

Whew!

And I came out of all that much stronger. Never had so much peace and joy. I can sit here for an hour just meditating on the goodness of God. And I finally truly love him and know Jesus loves me.

And you are maybe the most gracious Reformed/Calvinist I have had conversations with.

If your concept of God is the Calvinist/Reformed one, then your character will likely reflect that.
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

gordo97 said:

They talked about total depravity meaning that every human being is born as utterly filthy and undeserving of anything except for eternity in hell. They used terms like "viper in a diaper" to talk about how even kids are depraved from birth.

This is what I mentioned in another thread; every sect has some that promulgate this twisted and gross version of the real message. Makes me sick hearing this.

As I have already mentioned the idea we are "utterly" filthy is not at all the doctrine of total depravity.

Yes, we are all born undeserving of God's grace and would face eternity in hell if we are not washed in Christ's work on the cross.

This is more about God and his true position in our lives. He is holy and we are not. We need his grace and to be born again. When we more fully understand God's appropriate place (we'll never truly grasp it) then the only conclusion is that we will be able to better acknowledge our standing with Him and can only sit at Jesus's feet and wash them with our tears as the woman did in Luke 7.

Derm- sorry to hear about that experience.


And I do not agree that the purpose of Christ's work on the cross was primarily to save us from "hell". And I do not believe that is Scripturally sound.

I believe in Christis Victor atonement not penal substitutional atonement.

Christ's work on the cross was to defeat sin and Satan. And because of that, we can synergistically work with the Holy Spirit to become more Christ like. and live life abundantly and full of joy.

It is finished! Christ has won!

I do not believe God creates people in His image that "deserve hell". Again, that means He is creating people knowing they are pre ordained to eternal torment. Think of what that makes God.

My reading and study does not support that. And my bad experience is not rare.

And I understand God is holy and I am not. And I understand His position and mine.

This is all about God's character. God can be totally sovereign yet still be love.

And still looking for Scripture where Jesus, Paul, or anyone said He came to save us from "hell".

True, His blood saves us. But not from God who is good and loves us. Scripture says His blood saves us from our sin. Not from the punishment of our sin. But from our sin. Giving us new hearts so we can work together with the Spirit to become more Christlike. Takes all the tension out of Scripture.
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Thaddeus73
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closest I could come to your request...

https://www.openbible.info/topics/jesus_conquering_death_and_hell
dermdoc
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Thaddeus73 said:

closest I could come to your request...

https://www.openbible.info/topics/jesus_conquering_death_and_hell


To me, none of those say Jesus came to save us from hell. The wages of sin are death. Not hell.

Thanks for the link.

And I would argue about using hell, a word that did not exist when the original manuscripts were written and was invented by the KJV translators who interestingly translated the same word word Sheol in the OT half the time as "hell" and half the time as the grave or Sheol, rather than the actual word Gehenna.

Gehenna is used in more literal translations like Young's Literal Translation.

Jesus actually proclaimed why He came

Luke 4 18

The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free.

No mention of hell or Gehenna which seems strange if the primary reason He came was to save us from that.

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Thaddeus73
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1 John 3:8

He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
dermdoc
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Thaddeus73 said:

1 John 3:8

He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.


Agree. The works of the devil are sin. And Jesus defeated Satan and sin at the cross.
No mention of Gehenna or hell in that Scripture.

And Paul, the greatest evangelist ever, never mentioned hell. Very different from Western evangelism.
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dermdoc
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Howdy, it is me!
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Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Save the lost from what? Eternal separation from God, which is the wage of sin, spiritual death.
dermdoc
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Howdy, it is me! said:

Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Save the lost from what? Eternal separation from God, which is the wage of sin, spiritual death.


May I ask where He said that? He stated pretty clearly why He came and I gave the Scripture.
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Howdy, it is me!
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dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Save the lost from what? Eternal separation from God, which is the wage of sin, spiritual death.


May I ask where He said that? He stated pretty clearly why He came and I gave the Scripture.


Luke 19: 9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."
Martin Q. Blank
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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Martin Q. Blank
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2 Pet. 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. 14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
dermdoc
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Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Save the lost from what? Eternal separation from God, which is the wage of sin, spiritual death.


May I ask where He said that? He stated pretty clearly why He came and I gave the Scripture.


Luke 19: 9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."


Sure and that dove tails with my earlier Scripture about coming for the poor, the blind, etc.

I see no hell or eternal separation in your Scripture.
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dermdoc
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AG
Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.
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dermdoc
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AG
dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Save the lost from what? Eternal separation from God, which is the wage of sin, spiritual death.


May I ask where He said that? He stated pretty clearly why He came and I gave the Scripture.


Luke 19: 9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."


Sure and that dove tails with my earlier Scripture about coming for the poor, the blind, etc.

I see no hell or eternal separation in your Scripture.


And not meaning to derail, but what do you believe Jesus means by "salvation"?

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