Martin Q. Blank said:

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2 Pet. 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. 14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

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Sorry do not see eternal torment or torture in that. And the original word translate to "hell" was Tartarus which is a Hrek mythological term. Interesting.

dermdoc said:

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Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.

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Death meaning...what?

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Save the lost from what? Eternal separation from God, which is the wage of sin, spiritual death.

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May I ask where He said that? He stated pretty clearly why He came and I gave the Scripture.

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Luke 19: 9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

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Sure and that dove tails with my earlier Scripture about coming for the poor, the blind, etc.

I see no hell or eternal separation in your Scripture.

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So then what is the good news He is proclaiming? Freedom from what?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Save the lost from what? Eternal separation from God, which is the wage of sin, spiritual death.

---

May I ask where He said that? He stated pretty clearly why He came and I gave the Scripture.

---

Luke 19: 9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

---

Sure and that dove tails with my earlier Scripture about coming for the poor, the blind, etc.

I see no hell or eternal separation in your Scripture.

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So then is the good news He is proclaiming? Freedom from what?

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Our sin and Satan so we can have joy and abundant life now. I am just reading straight Scripture.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.

---

Death meaning...what?

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Death means death to me.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.

---

Death meaning...what?

---

Death means death to me.

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Death of what though? Physical death or spiritual death?

dermdoc said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Save the lost from what? Eternal separation from God, which is the wage of sin, spiritual death.

---

May I ask where He said that? He stated pretty clearly why He came and I gave the Scripture.

---

Luke 19: 9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

---

Sure and that dove tails with my earlier Scripture about coming for the poor, the blind, etc.

I see no hell or eternal separation in your Scripture.

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And not meaning to derail, but what do you believe Jesus means by "salvation"?

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I feel like this is quickly going to spiral into something bigger and off the rails, haha.

I do want to clarify that I didn't mean to imply those in hell would actually be out of the presence of God, which can certainly be taken from my phrasing of "separation from God."

I only wrote what I originally wrote to answer the question of why Jesus came which He stated was to seek and save the lost.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Save the lost from what? Eternal separation from God, which is the wage of sin, spiritual death.

---

May I ask where He said that? He stated pretty clearly why He came and I gave the Scripture.

---

Luke 19: 9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."

---

Sure and that dove tails with my earlier Scripture about coming for the poor, the blind, etc.

I see no hell or eternal separation in your Scripture.

---

And not meaning to derail, but what do you believe Jesus means by "salvation"?

---

I feel like this is quickly going to spiral into something bigger and off the rails, haha.

I do want to clarify that I didn't mean to imply those in hell would actually be out of the presence of God, which can certainly be taken from my phrasing of "separation from God."

I only wrote what I originally wrote to answer the question of why Jesus came which He stated was to seek and save the lost.

---

Hey it is all a lot of fun.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.

---

Death meaning...what?

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Death means death to me.

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To you? I think everyone can agree death means death.

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I am confused. What is the point of discussion?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.

---

Death meaning...what?

---

Death means death to me.

---

To you? I think everyone can agree death means death.

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I am confused.

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No need to bring the rest of us down with you.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.

---

Death meaning...what?

---

Death means death to me.

---

To you? I think everyone can agree death means death.

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I am confused.

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No need to bring the rest of us down with you.

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Agree.

Carry on.

https://instagr.am/p/DDpZM_pxoIu

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.

---

Death meaning...what?

---

Death means death to me.

---

To you? I think everyone can agree death means death.

---

Can you? As pointed out earlier in this thread, the meaning behind the words we use is important.

Is death the passing of one form of existence (this physical world) to another? Or is death ceasing to exist, removed from being entirely.

My guess is doc is referring to the latter in a spiritual sense, though he would have to speak to that. Without the eternal life brought to us by a savior, we would be tossed aside and cease to exist. Death. The end for now and all eternity. Not eternal torment, but eternal destruction.

This is annihilationism, which has its merits.

goatchze said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.

---

Death meaning...what?

---

Death means death to me.

---

To you? I think everyone can agree death means death.

---

Can you? As pointed out earlier in this thread, the meaning behind the words we use is important.

Is death the passing of one form of existence (this physical world) to another? Or is death ceasing to exist, removed from being entirely.

My guess is doc is referring to the latter in a spiritual sense, though he would have to speak to that. Without the eternal life brought to us by a savior, we would be tossed aside and cease to exist. Death. The end for now and all eternity. Not eternal torment, but eternal destruction.

This is annihilationism, which has its merits.

---

I believe the wages of sin is death means exactly what it says. There would be no death without the entry of sin into God's creation by Adam and Eve. Scripture says Jesus came to destroy Satan and sin so that we might have abundant, joyful life. And Jesus spoke and taught a lot more about how we are to live this life than about what happens after we die. Or heaven and hell. As I have said numerous times, I do not know of any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from hell.

And I will say that, to me, there is more Scriptural support of annihilationism than eternal conscious torment hell. The latter has just been taught a lot more in the West.

To me, Scripture points to two possibilities after physical death. There are several Scriptures that indicate when we die, we die, and are unconscious until Christ returns, we are resurrected with our new heavenly bodies, and are in God's presence in the new Jerusalem on Earth.

The second possibility, based primarily on what Christ said to the thief on the cross and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, is that we go to an intermediate state before Christ returns and He resurrects us.

I personally favor the second possibility and believe everybody is resurrected and in the presence of God. For those who love God, it will be bliss. For those who hate God, it will be "hell".

God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell".

I believe that God allows a person to reject Him eternally so therefore that person chooses "hell".

It is ontological, not judicial. God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell".

So those are my beliefs. You do not have to agree. But it sure makes Scripture and early church tradition make a lot of sense.

My Calvinist friend confuses death in the body with being dead in Heaven. But Jesus said in John 11:

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

So we Catholics believe that our loved ones in heaven are very much alive, not "dead."

Thaddeus73 said:

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My Calvinist friend confuses death in the body with being dead in Heaven. But Jesus said in John 11:

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

So we Catholics believe that our loved ones in heaven are very much alive, not "dead."

---

Do you believe that occurs after Christ returns and we are resurrected with our new bodies and inhabit New Jerusalem?

Or before when we are in the presence of the Lord?

dermdoc said:

---

goatchze said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Perish does not mean eternal torment to me. Or even eternal separation. It means to die. Just like the wages of sin are death. Not hell.

---

Death meaning...what?

---

Death means death to me.

---

To you? I think everyone can agree death means death.

---

Can you? As pointed out earlier in this thread, the meaning behind the words we use is important.

Is death the passing of one form of existence (this physical world) to another? Or is death ceasing to exist, removed from being entirely.

My guess is doc is referring to the latter in a spiritual sense, though he would have to speak to that. Without the eternal life brought to us by a savior, we would be tossed aside and cease to exist. Death. The end for now and all eternity. Not eternal torment, but eternal destruction.

This is annihilationism, which has its merits.

---

I believe the wages of sin is death means exactly what it says. There would be no death without the entry of sin into God's creation by Adam and Eve. Scripture says Jesus came to destroy Satan and sin so that we might have abundant, joyful life. And Jesus spoke and taught a lot more about how we are to live this life than about what happens after we die. Or heaven and hell. As I have said numerous times, I do not know of any Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from hell.

And I will say that, to me, there is more Scriptural support of annihilationism than eternal conscious torment hell. The latter has just been taught a lot more in the West.

To me, Scripture points to two possibilities after physical death. There are several Scriptures that indicate when we die, we die, and are unconscious until Christ returns, we are resurrected with our new heavenly bodies, and are in God's presence in the new Jerusalem on Earth.

The second possibility, based primarily on what Christ said to the thief on the cross and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, is that we go to an intermediate state before Christ returns and He resurrects us.

I personally favor the second possibility and believe everybody is resurrected and in the presence of God. For those who love God, it will be bliss. For those who hate God, it will be "hell".

God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell".

I believe that God allows a person to reject Him eternally so therefore that person chooses "hell".

It is ontological, not judicial. God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell".

So those are my beliefs. You do not have to agree. But it sure makes Scripture and early church tradition make a lot of sense.

---

9 edits and I still don't get what you believe. Annihilationism or eternal hell (which has a vague meaning).

You said:
"God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell"."

I say:
God is not unjust; exercising proper judgement is not sinning. He isn't judging and sentencing them just because He's "doing whatever He wants to do." He's completely just in doing so.

You said:
"God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell"."

I say:
If it was just a state of being after rejecting God then many of us are in hell in this life on this earth as we speak. So, what's the difference when they die?

(One of these days I'll figure out how to post pieces of quotes)

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

You said:
"God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell"."

I say:
God is not unjust; exercising proper judgement is not sinning. He isn't judging and sentencing them just because He's "doing whatever He wants to do." He's completely just in doing so.

You said:
"God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell"."

I say:
If it was just a state of being after rejecting God then many of us are in hell in this life on this earth as we speak. So, what's the difference when they die?

(One of these days I'll figure out how to post pieces of quotes)

---

No worries. I agree that rejecting God is hell in this life or the afterlife.

I believe that after death the "hell" is intensified due to being in the presence.

And that is the punishment.

But you are coming at this from a judicial standpoint and I am coming from an ontological standpoint.

So our views are pretty foreign to each other.

Who is administering the punishment you speak of?

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

You said:
"God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell"."

I say:
God is not unjust; exercising proper judgement is not sinning. He isn't judging and sentencing them just because He's "doing whatever He wants to do." He's completely just in doing so.

You said:
"God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell"."

I say:
If it was just a state of being after rejecting God then many of us are in hell in this life on this earth as we speak. So, what's the difference when they die?

(One of these days I'll figure out how to post pieces of quotes)

---

No worries. I agree that rejecting God is hell in this life or the afterlife.

I believe that after death the "hell" is intensified due to being in the presence.

And that is the punishment.

But you are coming at this from a judicial standpoint and I am coming from an ontological standpoint.

So our views are pretty foreign to each other.

Who is administering the punishment you speak of?

---

The punishment is experiencing God's wrath for eternity.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

You said:
"God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell"."

I say:
God is not unjust; exercising proper judgement is not sinning. He isn't judging and sentencing them just because He's "doing whatever He wants to do." He's completely just in doing so.

You said:
"God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell"."

I say:
If it was just a state of being after rejecting God then many of us are in hell in this life on this earth as we speak. So, what's the difference when they die?

(One of these days I'll figure out how to post pieces of quotes)

---

No worries. I agree that rejecting God is hell in this life or the afterlife.

I believe that after death the "hell" is intensified due to being in the presence.

And that is the punishment.

But you are coming at this from a judicial standpoint and I am coming from an ontological standpoint.

So our views are pretty foreign to each other.

Who is administering the punishment you speak of?

---

The punishment is experiencing God's wrath for eternity.

---

But they are in God's presence just like us?

But since they reject and hate God, and God is immutable, then "wrath" is due to their state of rejection while for those who love God it is bliss in His presence.

Same presence, different ontological states.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

You said:
"God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell"."

I say:
God is not unjust; exercising proper judgement is not sinning. He isn't judging and sentencing them just because He's "doing whatever He wants to do." He's completely just in doing so.

You said:
"God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell"."

I say:
If it was just a state of being after rejecting God then many of us are in hell in this life on this earth as we speak. So, what's the difference when they die?

(One of these days I'll figure out how to post pieces of quotes)

---

No worries. I agree that rejecting God is hell in this life or the afterlife.

I believe that after death the "hell" is intensified due to being in the presence.

And that is the punishment.

But you are coming at this from a judicial standpoint and I am coming from an ontological standpoint.

So our views are pretty foreign to each other.

Who is administering the punishment you speak of?

---

The punishment is experiencing God's wrath for eternity.

---

But they are in God's presence just like us?

But since they reject and hate God, and God is immutable, then "wrath" is due to their state of rejection while for those who love God it is bliss in His presence.

Same presence, different ontological states.

---

We are all always in God's presence, are we not? Heaven and Hell are different from this life, however.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

You said:
"God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell"."

I say:
God is not unjust; exercising proper judgement is not sinning. He isn't judging and sentencing them just because He's "doing whatever He wants to do." He's completely just in doing so.

You said:
"God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell"."

I say:
If it was just a state of being after rejecting God then many of us are in hell in this life on this earth as we speak. So, what's the difference when they die?

(One of these days I'll figure out how to post pieces of quotes)

---

No worries. I agree that rejecting God is hell in this life or the afterlife.

I believe that after death the "hell" is intensified due to being in the presence.

And that is the punishment.

But you are coming at this from a judicial standpoint and I am coming from an ontological standpoint.

So our views are pretty foreign to each other.

Who is administering the punishment you speak of?

---

The punishment is experiencing God's wrath for eternity.

---

But they are in God's presence just like us?

But since they reject and hate God, and God is immutable, then "wrath" is due to their state of rejection while for those who love God it is bliss in His presence.

Same presence, different ontological states.

---

We are all always in God's presence, are we not? Heaven and Hell are different from this life, however.

---

Believers are emdued with the Holy Spirit which I think is different than being in the actual prescence of God. I know when Jesus returns and we are resurrected, we will be in the physical presence Of God in the New Jerusalem.

Not sure about the intermediate state after death before Christ returns.
So you believe God actively administers active wrath as punishment after death to people who reject Him in this life?

And I am nit trying to be a turd. Just truly curious.

I believe God is never changing and it is our ontological state as to whether we experience "heaven" or "hell".

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

You said:
"God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell"."

I say:
God is not unjust; exercising proper judgement is not sinning. He isn't judging and sentencing them just because He's "doing whatever He wants to do." He's completely just in doing so.

You said:
"God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell"."

I say:
If it was just a state of being after rejecting God then many of us are in hell in this life on this earth as we speak. So, what's the difference when they die?

(One of these days I'll figure out how to post pieces of quotes)

---

No worries. I agree that rejecting God is hell in this life or the afterlife.

I believe that after death the "hell" is intensified due to being in the presence.

And that is the punishment.

But you are coming at this from a judicial standpoint and I am coming from an ontological standpoint.

So our views are pretty foreign to each other.

Who is administering the punishment you speak of?

---

The punishment is experiencing God's wrath for eternity.

---

But they are in God's presence just like us?

But since they reject and hate God, and God is immutable, then "wrath" is due to their state of rejection while for those who love God it is bliss in His presence.

Same presence, different ontological states.

---

We are all always in God's presence, are we not? Heaven and Hell are different from this life, however.

---

Believers are emdued with the Holy Spirit which I think is different than being in the actual prescence of God. I know when Jesus returns and we are resurrected, we will be in the physical presence Of God in the New Jerusalem.

Not sure about the intermediate state after death before Christ returns.
So you believe God actively administers active wrath as punishment after death to people who reject Him in this life?

And I am nit trying to be a turd. Just truly curious.

I believe God is never changing and it is our ontological state as to whether we experience "heaven" or "hell".

---

I don't think I take any particular issue with your statement about wrath.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

You said:
"God can not sin so He can not punish people He created just because He is God and can do anything He wants to do. The people choose to reject God and thus experience "hell"."

I say:
God is not unjust; exercising proper judgement is not sinning. He isn't judging and sentencing them just because He's "doing whatever He wants to do." He's completely just in doing so.

You said:
"God's "wrath" is actually just the state of being for a person who rejects God experiences in God's presence. That is "hell"."

I say:
If it was just a state of being after rejecting God then many of us are in hell in this life on this earth as we speak. So, what's the difference when they die?

(One of these days I'll figure out how to post pieces of quotes)

---

No worries. I agree that rejecting God is hell in this life or the afterlife.

I believe that after death the "hell" is intensified due to being in the presence.

And that is the punishment.

But you are coming at this from a judicial standpoint and I am coming from an ontological standpoint.

So our views are pretty foreign to each other.

Who is administering the punishment you speak of?

---

The punishment is experiencing God's wrath for eternity.

---

But they are in God's presence just like us?

But since they reject and hate God, and God is immutable, then "wrath" is due to their state of rejection while for those who love God it is bliss in His presence.

Same presence, different ontological states.

---

We are all always in God's presence, are we not? Heaven and Hell are different from this life, however.

---

Believers are emdued with the Holy Spirit which I think is different than being in the actual prescence of God. I know when Jesus returns and we are resurrected, we will be in the physical presence Of God in the New Jerusalem.

Not sure about the intermediate state after death before Christ returns.
So you believe God actively administers active wrath as punishment after death to people who reject Him in this life?

And I am nit trying to be a turd. Just truly curious.

I believe God is never changing and it is our ontological state as to whether we experience "heaven" or "hell".

---

I don't think I take any particular issue with your statement about wrath.

---

Cool. Now give me the Super Bowl winner.