I'm not looking to start a fight or debate, but looking for y'all's best sources.

I'm doing my thesis on the early church's views of Mary. Thesis statement isn't defined yet as I'm in the research phase.

Transparently, I expect to find that the modern conceptions of the Immaculate Conception and/or the Assumption of Mary are not supported by the early Church Fathers, but I'm open to where the research takes me. My eventual thesis statement will fall along those lines.

What I'm not looking for are books that are simply apologetics or polemics. Anything that appeals to early primary sources are ideal.

I'm starting with Secondary Resources to build primary sources. I've started with:

Stephen Shoemaker: Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion
Hilda Graef: Mary: A History of Doctrine and Devotion

Primary Resources I've identified so far are:
Origin
Tertullian
Clement
Justin Martyr
Ireneaus

Apocryphal texts identified so far for further review:
Protevangelium of James (and Gelasian Decree)
Ascension of Isaiah
Book of Mary's Repose


So for those on either side of the position. I'm curious to your best sources?

Maybe I'm too zoomed in here: is there a particular aspect you're trying to wrap your head around, or just general mariology?

The Banned said:

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Maybe I'm too zoomed in here: is there a particular aspect you're trying to wrap your head around, or just general mariology?

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At the moment, I'm not drilling into a certain aspect, largely because I'm not sure what sources will be there for more specific questions. It's a Masters and not a PHD, so I haven't spent the time/effort to learn Latin/Greek, etc which would almost certainly open more sources up to me.

Eventually I expect to get to a more specific statement such as "the early church does/does not support the idea of the Ascension of Mary" or even something such as "The modern views of Mary originated within the Church fathers/Apocryphal texts."

I certainly have some biases and expectations on where I think the research will lead (i.e. the more modern views of Mary don't hold up to historical critique), but honestly, I've been pleasantly surprised with what I've found so far in terms of there being more historical info on Mary than I expected.

There have always been passionate debates about Mary on here, and I wanted to make sure I was finding the best sources possible no matter where it leads.

Quo Vadis? said:

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I don't know if you consider St Augustine as "early church" but both Nature and Grace and Holy Virginity have a lot of information on the Virgin Mary.

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Certainly will look at Augustine.

I've read On Nature and Grace and there's a passing reference to Mary that I recall, but will double check it.

Don't know what you count as early, but here Taylor Marshall (who I disagree with on many things) has compiled quite a few on sinless Mary.

https://taylormarshall.com/2011/12/church-fathers-on-immaculate-conception.html

Here's an argument on the assumption


https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-assumption-of-mary-in-history

Don't expect you to take any of it as truth, but it does provide some additional sources for you to track down. Good luck on your work.

Anything pre the Council of Ephesus.

Any original thesis idea of mine (which I've said on here before) is that Ephesus was a dividing line on Marian claims. That to no surprise the dispute over Mary's relationship to Jesus led to bigger claims.

Sadly, that's an idea many have had and agree that is an inflection point.

AgLiving06 said:

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I'm not looking to start a fight or debate, but looking for y'all's best sources.

I'm doing my thesis on the early church's views of Mary. Thesis statement isn't defined yet as I'm in the research phase.

Transparently, I expect to find that the modern conceptions of the Immaculate Conception and/or the Assumption of Mary are not supported by the early Church Fathers, but I'm open to where the research takes me. My eventual thesis statement will fall along those lines.

What I'm not looking for are books that are simply apologetics or polemics. Anything that appeals to early primary sources are ideal.

I'm starting with Secondary Resources to build primary sources. I've started with:

Stephen Shoemaker: Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion
Hilda Graef: Mary: A History of Doctrine and Devotion

Primary Resources I've identified so far are:
Origin
Tertullian
Clement
Justin Martyr
Ireneaus

Apocryphal texts identified so far for further review:
Protevangelium of James (and Gelasian Decree)
Ascension of Isaiah
Book of Mary's Repose

So for those on either side of the position. I'm curious to your best sources?

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I'm interested to see where this leads you and what you learn/find out. I hope you'll report back to the board when you reach your conclusion.

What your expectations for early Church support going into the project with regard to the other two Marian Dogmas - Mary being the mother of God and her Perpetual Virginity (in addition to the Immaculate Conception and Assumption/Dormition of Mary). Also curious as to what qualify as support that you would be willing to accept. Established Liturgical examples supporting these beliefs in Mary, writings of Church fathers, acceptance in the churches of teachings (lack of dispute in adoption), etc.

Good luck!

One point of clarification - Jesus ascended into heaven by his own power whereas Mary was assumed or taken into heaven but not of her own power.

In addition to Angelico Press, which is truly outstanding, TAN Books has a relatively short volume of Emmerich's visions of St. Mary.

These are in full conformity to the early church understanding of her life, as well as the aforementioned archeological evidence. The Church has given strong de facto support, which can't be "official" because she didn't herself write.

Epiphanius of Salamis

The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God by St John Maximovitch may be a good secondary source for your research. It's a short book that goes into the veneration of her during her earthly life and then follows chronologically with the various challenges that became heresies against the Theotokos.

Edit. Oops, correct podcast but wrong clip. Will repost fix later.

Good, respectful conversation between Voice of Reason (Catholic apologist) and Ruslan (Protestant YouTuber). Some potentially good talking points are brought up about Mary and the early church.

Edit to add correct clip:



Right around 10:00 they begin to discuss some of earliest writings on Mary. Prior to that the scriptural argument for Catholic dogma on Mary.

Faithful Ag said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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I'm not looking to start a fight or debate, but looking for y'all's best sources.

I'm doing my thesis on the early church's views of Mary. Thesis statement isn't defined yet as I'm in the research phase.

Transparently, I expect to find that the modern conceptions of the Immaculate Conception and/or the Assumption of Mary are not supported by the early Church Fathers, but I'm open to where the research takes me. My eventual thesis statement will fall along those lines.

What I'm not looking for are books that are simply apologetics or polemics. Anything that appeals to early primary sources are ideal.

I'm starting with Secondary Resources to build primary sources. I've started with:

Stephen Shoemaker: Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion
Hilda Graef: Mary: A History of Doctrine and Devotion

Primary Resources I've identified so far are:
Origin
Tertullian
Clement
Justin Martyr
Ireneaus

Apocryphal texts identified so far for further review:
Protevangelium of James (and Gelasian Decree)
Ascension of Isaiah
Book of Mary's Repose

So for those on either side of the position. I'm curious to your best sources?

---

I'm interested to see where this leads you and what you learn/find out. I hope you'll report back to the board when you reach your conclusion.

What your expectations for early Church support going into the project with regard to the other two Marian Dogmas - Mary being the mother of God and her Perpetual Virginity (in addition to the Immaculate Conception and Assumption/Dormition of Mary). Also curious as to what qualify as support that you would be willing to accept. Established Liturgical examples supporting these beliefs in Mary, writings of Church fathers, acceptance in the churches of teachings (lack of dispute in adoption), etc.

Good luck!

One point of clarification - Jesus ascended into heaven by his own power whereas Mary was assumed or taken into heaven but not of her own power.

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Pretty well anything qualifies.

I have a feeling apocryphal writings (i.e. Protoevangelium of James) will probably play a decent role in the paper.

Shoemaker makes an interesting point in his book that I'm curious to test as I find sources. Paraphasing, but he commented that in his research he found that there is more references to Mary among the apocryphal writings than within the catholic (small c) Fathers.

He's then spent several chapters going through various books (many mentioned above). I'm assuming he will get to the church fathers next or I'll move on to Hilda which he mentions.

So as long as it's something that can be reasonably traced back to the first couple hundred years, I'm documenting it to read through.