dermdoc said:
one MEEN Ag said:
How did I miss this thread?! We got everything in here. Sapper bringing up the holocaust. Kurt waxing poetic about his lack of free will. Dermdoc trying to defend a post-christ, jewish idea of hell that is more similar to a penalty box than what scriptures support.
Zobel and Quo, keep up the good work.
Sapper, for one second can you look at history beyond a decade in german history?
What about the mass famine, rape, and ethnic cleansing of the German people right after WW2? Whose suffering was on par with the holocaust? The soviet leaders were overwhelmingly jewish, is that fair game to bring up if we're going to blast God for the evils of man?
Or basically any war before that?
Apparently the jews, immediately after rejecting Christ and being cut off from God, became an incredibly pious people for 2000 years straight. Never having any factions partake in horrors, atrocities, or evildoing.
The reality is Israel always had a predilection for worshipping Baal over God. That didn't stop when God removed his hand. You think Baal just stood idly by?
The whole world is in need of Christ. That includes modern jewish groups that rejected Him.
Disagree on Scripture support of ECT hell. There is only one verse that speaks of eternal punishment and that is Matthew 25 46 which has a very disputed translation. Everything else is about eternal fire, destruction, etc but not punishment. But that's okay my friend.
And definitely not post Christ. Christ is eternal so how could one be post Christ?
Post Christ as in the idea took root after the earthly life of Christ. The three big flavors of judgement are:
-Eternal separation of your soul from God which never ends because your soul never ends (ECT).
-Separation of your soul from God upon your death which causes suffering, and then destruction of your soul after judgement (Annihilationism)
-Separation of your soul from God upon your death which causes suffering, but only for an amount of time, and then reunification of your soul to God. (Rehabilitation)
Rehabilitation has been a post-Christ Jewish belief where you spend time in hades for your actions, get brought up before a holy parole board, and then decide if you still hate God in your heart and want to either return to damnation or be united with God. This is the modern jewish tagline of 'not believing in hell'.
This worldview doesn't widespread exist before Christ because the OT points to only the grave existing for everyone. There is some pre-judgement of evildoers into the abyss away from the righteous dead, but all are suffering. And some saints sent directly to the presence of God. But, the only real hope for mankind is through the future coming of the Messiah.
Post the age of messiah (first century AD) and destruction of the second temple is the impetus for reinterpreting a Messiah out of the OT as well as having to change how hades works to accommodate this. If the Messiah isn't coming to give you access to heaven, then somewhere along the way you have to get access to heaven through your own will in the grave.
This is non Christian. Mainly because A) it relies upon a concept of time outside of this world in which time doesn't exist like we think it does. And B) The whole point of being given the gift of death, a fleshly body, and free will to sin, and the revelation of Christ nowadays is to give a chance to repent and seek God in this world. Being able to repent while being in a sinful state is what separates us from the demons. If we lived forever after sinning we would become demons. If nonflesh souls could repent in front of God there is no significance repenting in this world except to avoid a short lived torture before blissful infinity.
