A special prayer for the Jews and those who do not believe in Christ for Holy Week

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Sapper Redux
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swimmerbabe11 said:

what religious beliefs, if any, do you practice?

see, we need tags.


I light the Shabbat candles with my family and say the prayers. I don't personally think God is listening, but I recognize the importance as a cultural touchstone and the importance to my wife and kids. I've gone to plenty of services and community gathers such as Seders, Purim carnivals, etc…

There's an old Jewish joke, "Two Rabbis argued late into the night about the existence of God, and, using strong arguments from the scriptures, ended up indisputably disproving His existence. The next day, one Rabbi was surprised to see the other walking into the Shul for morning services.

"I thought we had agreed there was no God," he said.

"Yes, what does that have to do with it?" replied the other."

Community and tradition matter to Jews. Theology can be argued over.
swimmerbabe11
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does that mean you believe in an indifferent god? or just dont believe at all?

thanks for the explanation
Sapper Redux
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swimmerbabe11 said:

does that mean you believe in an indifferent god? or just dont believe at all?

thanks for the explanation


I'm something of a very, VERY agnostic deist / atheist. I believe a God is possible, maybe even likely to some extent, but not at all a God in the way we picture or expect. To a degree that it may be immaterial to us whether this God does or doesn't exist.
swimmerbabe11
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Thank you for explaining.
BonfireNerd04
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Quote:

Side note: Reform Jud[ai]sm is atheism with a coffee hour.
This isn't a very nice thing to say. But based on the Reform Jews I've met, it's pretty much true.
AGC
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AG
BonfireNerd04 said:

Quote:

Side note: Reform Jud[ai]sm is atheism with a coffee hour.
This isn't a very nice thing to say. But based on the Reform Jews I've met, it's pretty much true.


Kids at my wife's school get the spiel every year from the local rabbi that there are people who do and don't believe in God in his congregation, so he dances around it quite a bit
swimmerbabe11
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that's so wierd to me. if you are going to do the song and dance, at least fake it while you are in the concert hall.
Got a Natty!
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AG
robbio said:

And then the other question is can anyone be saved without the Holy Spirit in their lives and how do we receive the HS?
I have found this discussion very interesting.

In 2001 I was preparing to try a man who had beat his 4 year old son to death. I always let what people do to each other roll off my back and never brought it home. But this one bothered me.

One day in Sunday school I asked "Would this child go to Heaven. He lived his 4 short years in a house where he never heard the word Jesus much less had the Bible read to him." I just could not fathom, and still cannot fathom, that this child would be banished to hell because his parents were horrible people.

That lead into a discussion about whether Jewish people would go to Heaven.

To salve my own conscious I think that God took this 4 year old child to a temporal place where the child would have the opportunity to learn of Jesus and therefore have the opportunity to receive a place in Heaven. This is a godly process that humans cannot imagine nor understand.

This is a separate discussion from whether adult Jewish people can get to Heaven as they have the opportunity to accept Christ as their savior.

If anyone has a positive answer as to how children who meet an untimely death find their way to Heaven, I would love to learn this. Any negative answers, don't waste your time. I believe God is a loving God and would never refuse grace and salvation to the 4 year old child whose murder I dealt with.

His name was Thunder Speed. And he never had a chance in this world.

BonfireNerd04
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Quote:

By sheer numbers, the deaths associated with the German resettlement and famine are on par with the holocaust. It is not talked about because they lost the war. Winners make monuments, losers get erased.
The number of deaths from the expulsions is disputed. Wikipedia says that estimates range from 500,000 to 3,000,000. So, less than the Holocaust, but still a huge number.

It's crazy how the Allies were able to kick 15 million Germans out of their homes and nobody cares today. Either doesn't know it happened, or thinks that Germany deserved it for putting a genocidal maniac in charge. But if you propose relocating 2 million Gaza residents today, people cry "genocide".

Quote:

The foundational overthrow of the bolshevik revolution was overwhelmingly steeped in ethnic jews at the top who wanted to A) destroy Christianity and B) remake in their own image a post-Christ society. They did this through lies about the bolsheviks being able to bring about a Jubilee and utopia under their rule.
Not really. Sure, some Bolsheviks were Jewish. Trotsky was. Lenin might have had a Jewish ancestor. But Stalin, Kalinin, and Molotov were definitely not Jewish.

It's definitely true that most Russian Jews did not support Tsar Nicholas II's regime, due to being heavily persecuted by it. But most of them supported the less-radical Mensheviks or the General Jewish Labor Bund rather than the Bolsheviks.

The idea of "Judeo-Bolshevism" was more propaganda than reality.

Quote:

Why do you think the soviets made a 5 day week? It was hatred of the Sabbath and the Lords Day. It started out hating Christianity, but it encompassed hating everyone who did not love the state.
Definitely true. The atheist French Revolutionaries adopted a 10-day "week" for similar reasons.
Ag_of_08
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AG
Zobel said:

no christian worships a god that is cruel, mercurial, or generally evil.


Certainly many do that claim to be Christian. Its an interesting paradox
Ag_of_08
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AG
Im sorry this is probably out of the flow of this thread, but derm I have a genuine question.

The bible is littered, especially post the gospels, with descriptions of hell as a place of punishment and pain. The western church has largely preached that as the truth.

If i understand you correctly, that's not how you/your faith views "hell". I'd be fascinated to read how you rectify what I would call a contradiction. This forum is genuinely the first time I've ever run into Christians who don't subscribe to hell as a "lake of fire" scenario.

If this needs to go to another thread it can, and don't feel obligated to write a novel, links will work. It also may have been better discussed earlier run the thread, I will read it more completely later. I meant to post this much earlier, but I am currently trying to fight the goodfight to keep my oldest step kids spirits up.morenthan being online. Her bio mother did something truly horrible to her a couple of weeks back that has caused her to sever ties, and us to take legal action to protect her.

Again, thanks for any discourse here, I have a real interest in the topic as it so drastically differs from the theology commonly preached at me growing up and as an adult, and honestly fits the message I think the actual gospels intended...
dermdoc
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AG
Ag_of_08 said:

Im sorry this is probably out of the flow of this thread, but derm I have a genuine question.

The bible is littered, especially post the gospels, with descriptions of hell as a place of punishment and pain. The western church has largely preached that as the truth.

If i understand you correctly, that's not how you/your faith views "hell". I'd be fascinated to read how you rectify what I would call a contradiction. This forum is genuinely the first time I've ever run into Christians who don't subscribe to hell as a "lake of fire" scenario.

If this needs to go to another thread it can, and don't feel obligated to write a novel, links will work. It also may have been better discussed earlier run the thread, I will read it more completely later. I meant to post this much earlier, but I am currently trying to fight the goodfight to keep my oldest step kids spirits up.morenthan being online. Her bio mother did something truly horrible to her a couple of weeks back that has caused her to sever ties, and us to take legal action to protect her.

Again, thanks for any discourse here, I have a real interest in the topic as it so drastically differs from the theology commonly preached at me growing up and as an adult, and honestly fits the message I think the actual gospels intended...


I will make this as brief as I can.
First of all there is no concept of "hell" in the OT. Sheol is the word for death or grave that has been erroneously translated into the word "hell" by some translations.
Fascinating that the KJV translated the same word "Sheol" half the time as hell and half the time as the grave or shadowy place of death.
When you really research the NT, there are verses about eternal fire and destruction but only one verse about eternal punishment. That is Matthew 25 46 and there is much debate about how it was translated from the original Greek. The most accurate translations like Young's Literal translation, correctly translate aionios as of an age. Not eternal.

And the Greek word used for punishment, kolasis usually means pruning or a corrective punishment. Timoria is the Greek word for retributive punishment.

Paul never used the word hell anywhere. Not in his letters or sermons. The greatest evangelist ever never uttered the word hell. Seems strange as that seems to be a constant for modern day evangelists.

I do not consider this a salvific issue as there is no place anywhere in Scripture that states that you have to have correct hell theology.
Here are some books on the subject. The two by Ramelli are the most scholarly.

And all of their arguments are based on Scripture.







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dermdoc
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AG
And I do think there will be corrective punishment for a certain time. But not for eternity.

I also do not expect anyone to agree with me.

I will say this. Since I have lost my belief in ECT hell, I love going to work and witness and praying with my patients. Never felt such peace and joy.

And never thought I would look forward to reading my Bible daily, prayer, and a lot of time meditating on the goodness of God. I have been born again.
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one MEEN Ag
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AG
Sapper Redux said:

one MEEN Ag said:

It got blown away. But those who saw it witnessed Sapper defend Judiasm the most he possibly has on this board. If he was actually jewish he wouldn't have initially respond with, my mother's side is jewish he'd come out and say he was jewish. But he claimed his mom's jewish, he's jewish (as of today), his kids are jewish (as of today as well).

Because Judiasm to him is defined by just a peoples group, not believing in YHWH existing or that the Torah means anything is of little value on top of marriage and births. One day, his kids will grow up and reach the final form of judiasm which is atheism, just like he did.

You do realize that the parts you don't like about Christianity theology are filled full parts of the Torah, right? Do not I, as a Christian, hold the Torah in higher regard than you by the sole facts I believe God exists and the Torah is law and you do neither? Am I more jewish than you? Certainly more of an Israelite.



Judaism is an ethnoreligion not bound by theology alone. By explaining my background, I was attempting to explain some of the complexity. Apparently that's too much for some people to mentally adjudicate.

And no, being a Christian does not mean you hold the Tanakh in higher regard given what supersessionism means. I know this statement will fall on deaf ears, so I'm out of this particular part of the conversation.
But you are neither ethnically jewish, nor religious. Yet you fall within the same category as native americans gatekeeping their tribal lists. You have to be native american both and involved with the tribe in their eyes. Losing the involvement means losing the identity. Can I adopt a southern black baptist culture so hard that I become a black southern baptist? Could my kids? If I marry accordingly, then yes.

And this is the joke of ethnicity as an identity. Lets say I bring my european ethnicity to the table, marry a jewish girl. My kids are now jewish. I am still not ethnically jewish though. Jokes on them though, this jewish girl only had a jewish mother and european father. So my kids are 75% european, 25% ethnically jewish. What even is jewish ethnicity here? The whole point of judiasm defined as an ethnicity is only bound by cultural intermarriage. Everyone had to bring a spouse into the fold if you go back far enough and then live your life according to the Torah.

This is the point driven home by God to Abraham. All previous people groups failed and worshipped demons, children of abraham are all adopted into the relationship with God through the line of Abraham. But its the practice of the faith that sets you apart.

A faith, that you don't even believe in. You just do performatively. With readings of the old testament that has clearly been de-messiahified. Lets put your torah knowledge to the test here. What does your synagogue, that you now believe in say about:

-Roughly 2000 years ago, what did the judiasms anticipate happening and why? Was Gods response to Daniel about the coming of the messiah wrong?
-Why did the second temple fall and what purpose did it serve to even be built if the torah doesn't need a temple?
-2000 years, when is God going to speak to a prophet about the next step? Temple 3.0? No temple?
-What is the plan to provide salvation for the world? Is there a plan for salvation for the world in modern judiasm? How does the problem of evil get solved and we get back to the garden of Eden?
-Who was Melchizedek? Why were 2nd temple jewish groups enamored with messianism like Melchizdek and Enoch types?
-Would your rabbi allow you get up and read from Isiah 53? Why not?

Does your synagogue ever say, 'God doesn't have a body?' How does that bode with Abraham talking to God, The angel of the Lord leading the jews out of Egypt, Gideon talking to God directly?

one MEEN Ag
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AG
This is usually in the conversation where you call me antisemitic and walk away.

Is judiasm a relatively new thing to take more seriously within the last two years? I distinctly remember a conversation about a year/year and a half ago where your rebuttals changed from 'general historical lack of evidence' to directly calling Christians liars. It was a post where you couldn't follow the most obvious prophetic language about the temple being torn down and disputing that the gospels had to have post hoc lied to include Jesus saying that prophecy before the romans destroyed the temple.

Straight up reform judiasm coffee hour answer.
Zobel
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AG

Quote:

Certainly many do that claim to be Christian. Its an interesting paradox

By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.
one MEEN Ag
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AG
"Wow one meen ag is really unloading on sapper in this thread'

Yeah, you've been a jackwagon on these debates for years, feigning offense on behalf of all of judaism at any biblical critique because of a reform jewish cousin. Calling anyone who disagrees with you an anti-semite, acting 'above it all' on these religious discussions and never really engaging in the textual discussion. Saying things like Christianity has no claim to second temple judaism. And then all of sudden you've been raised jewish, jewish mother, jewish wife, jewish children? Conservative jewish school? Oh man this is rich. There is no viewpoint from nowhere.

Martin Q. Blank
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Sapper Redux said:

I light the Shabbat candles with my family and say the prayers.
Behold, he prayeth!

There is hope for you Sapper.
dermdoc
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AG
Zobel said:


Quote:

Certainly many do that claim to be Christian. Its an interesting paradox

By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness.


Can't blue star this enough.
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one MEEN Ag
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AG
Lord have mercy. Thank you for sharing your story. The best answer we can give on this side of the earth is that we don't truly know, but God is infinite in his mercy. Children are innocent, God is just and abhors punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty. Best we can do on this side of the earth is pray for Thunder, Thunder's family, and for all those who are suffering.

We had a loss in the family a while back and I spent a lot of time reading about private revelations of heaven preserved within the church. Having questions similar to yours. While we don't ever have full access to heaven nor hell (its all revealed contextually to humans to share with them some aspect they need to see) there is one constant I picked up on. There are revelations of children playing in heaven. There are no visions of children receiving torment in hell.
Got a Natty!
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AG
Those two last sentences are what give me hope.

But I don't pray for Thunder's family. I sent both parents to prison. Mom for Injury to a Child by Omission. She failed to protect her child. I should pray for some of the people I handled. That is one of my faults. And a fault I will probably never correct.

But that is also a reason why I could leave work at the office and not burden my family with it. And also why I loved being the District Attorney, holding people accountable for their bad deeds.
one MEEN Ag
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AG
Our priest shares a common refrain that you cannot be truly Christian without praying earnestly for the whole world's salvation. We have to forgive and not judge in front of God as we have all sinned. Even though it's obvious to see a gradient of heinousness in front of our eyes, that's the rub. Forgive and be forgiven.

God willing and in due time you can pray for even their salvation. You don't have to pray for their release, God has given authority to the world to fairly enact justice and carry authority. Putting these people could easily be just, even lenient in our society. Prison is a time for them to reflect on their actions, and even get a foretaste of what separation from God looks like. You don't have to separate your job from your religion to fend off applying justice.

Lord have mercy.
Got a Natty!
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It was my job to judge. I do pray for everyone's salvation.
But that does not mean I forgive. At least I acknowledge that is one of my shortcomings. And probably my biggest shortcoming.

It was my job to advocate for victims and to punish the wrong doers. It is very difficult to flip that switch off.
Ag_of_08
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AG
Thank you for taking the time to answer.
dermdoc
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You might want to try out an Orthdox or non denominational church. There are a lot of Christian's and churches who do not preach ECT hell based on Scripture.
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Quo Vadis?
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dermdoc said:

You might want to try out an Orthdox or non denominational church. There are a lot of Christian's and churches who do not preach ECT hell based on Scripture.
Derm, unless I'm having a stroke, 90% of the posters who are arguing with you over the eternal nature of hell are orthodox.
kurt vonnegut
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Zobel said:

I think first you need to get past the more elementary understanding of good and evil. For example your re-presentation of the Euthyphro dilemma (does God command actions because they are good or are actions good because God commands them?) is again a framework that doesn't produce a solution; the former undermines God by appealing to an external standard, and the latter becomes a tautology when we're trying to understand the goodness of God.

We can't assume a morally neutral framework, or even a naturalistic one. The former, because then we have no means to actually understand, the latter because different societies derive different ethics from "nature". We also can't appeal to pre-Christian understandings of good and bad because these were about qualities as opposed to actions - virtues were about excellence, not moral goodness, and this justified societal structures such as slavery.

If you want to take a Christian ethical framework (e.g., equality of worth of human life because it is human) that's fine, but then you also can't reject it out of hand without justification. You need to show why Christian ethics are superior or inferior or preferred to pre-Christian / pagan frameworks which find Christian ethics ridiculous.

Because you are a westerner you likely assume a Christian framework, broadly speaking. If we want to understand good and evil within that framework we should start with the axiom not of goodness but of evil. Evil itself IS the power of sin that humanity becomes enslaved to, which brings death and destruction and masters humans to their destruction. This is contrasted to goodness, which is justice, righteousness, order, life - and specifically flourishing life, good life, not just continued biological existence. But this is not sufficient in itself to describe God's goodness, because He is not limited to justice, or order as opposed to chaos, or flourishing as opposed to decay.

God has absolute freedom, and is not bound by necessity, or an external standard like justice, or even a teleological progression (i.e. God has no "aim" or "end-state"). This is why He is God, uncreated, unchanging. This is why He is distinct from both created beings like humans and even the claims of the pagan gods. We Christians understand that this freedom is part of Who and What He Is, His essential essence, which is beyond knowing or defining or categorization, being before and above and distinct from all created things.

His goodness becomes known to us by His actions, which we call His energies (from the Greek for work). These actions are part of Him, they are God, and they are eternal activities - loving, creating, healing, showing mercy, etc. They become known to us in time as we experience them. Good, then, is God's divine nature in action, a kind of vector sum of His energies.

For humans to be good, then, is for us to participate in those energies, and this is how humans are both healed of sin and flourish in life. Goodness and freedom come from this participation, because it frees us from the slavery to sin, chaos, death, and destruction.

This breaks the Euthyphro dilemma which is asking us to know whether things are good because God slaps the good label on them vs saying "He does good things so we call Him good". The problem is the Platonic mindset that expects goodness to be a form or abstract quality that requires an external reference point for meaning. Instead, God is personal and relational (a main difference between Platonic and Christian theology). We know God through His energies, and what we know from them is good because they bring life, order, flourishing. When we do good deeds, we're not copying what we call good, we are actively participating in God's eternal activities, and that goodness acts upon us. As opposed to picking between external standard and arbitrary divine will, here good is the eternal action of God Himself, made known through participation.

So - that being said - with good itself is so experienced and defined - I think you can see the challenge to Plato framework you're assuming here. God did not arbitrarily assume punishment. God's eternal actions are good, and life-giving, and being separated from them is chaos and separation from life: death itself. Death begins with physical death, and culminates in spiritual death.

The premise of coercion and torture you're assuming are not givens. Hell is not a masochistic torture pit. The image of hell - weeping and gnashing of teeth - is that of insanity, of loss of coherence of being. Loss of humanity, which is a loss of the image of God. If people are in hell, this hell is one of love, perceived as bad by those who hate Him - not because He wills them to suffer.

Your analogy of soldier and captive fail in the same way. This isn't a coercive tyrant setting arbitrary rules - the "rules" of love, righteousness, life, flourishing are God's eternal actions, His being in action. Rejecting this life and flourishing is not a choice between subjugation and punishment.

Similarly He is not subject to necessity. He is totally free. He is not bound to punish, reward, create in any way whatever. So while God could absolutely reprogram minds, what we know of God as revealed by His energies - which are again oriented to life, order, flourishing, mercy, love - would be contradicted by this type of manipulation or domination.

The hypothetical of sadistic torture being called good (back to Euthyphro) is already answered - such actions are not life-giving or coherent with the image of God the Father revealed perfectly in the person of Jesus Christ, who loves His enemies, forgives them, and dies to free them from death and slavery.

Free will is not as small of an idea as choosing between an arbitrary set of options. That's an objection I've seen here said, that humans aren't free because they can't fly - if so, only God is free, which is fine and true, but then we need to have another term to re-enter human experience. Instead freedom is the freedom to flourish, to grow toward our purpose, our teleological end. The call is not to pick between submission and torture, but to proceed toward what you were created for, life...a truly good, abundant, flourishing life. Not choosing your existence, or your sinfulness, or your need for salvation doesn't negate your free will even though it does negate you not being free like God is free. All you've established here is that You Are Not God.

Nevertheless your life, and mine, and all of ours, are gifts given to us for our salvation toward the best possible end any of us could imagine and more. Sin distorts this, and our sins are our participation in that distortion, not a "design flaw" from God. Salvation is our choice to participate in our own freedom. Humans are not passive victims of a divine game, but created with divinely-imaged agency, and are active participants who can choose to live... or to die. So the soldier analogy breaks down, because we're not talking about arbitrary penalties but intrinsic outcomes. If you refuse to eat you certainly will die. The person who tells you this is not the one who kills you, particularly if they continually offer you food.

A sadistic God calling torture good contradicts our knowledge of God's divine energies as life-giving, merciful, plenteous in mercy, longsuffering, compassionate, loving, and self-sacrificing - and so cannot be good, is incoherent with good. Your arguments are emotionally compelling, but ultimately come from a legalistic and Platonic view of Good and Justice that are not aligned with the theology and philosophy of the Church.

I follow your description of the Euthyphro dilemma, but I struggle to distinguish a resolving description of God's goodness that doesn't feel like it is still some form of tautology or circular reasoning.

My understanding of the Christian description of God (in my words) is that goodness is identical with God's nature. And there is not an external standard to which God is subject to, rather God is the standard. God and goodness are the same.

You discuss knowing God's goodness through experience and through understanding God's actions and energies. And good as being described as the vector sum of those energies. And goodness leads to healing of sin and flourishing in life as opposed to toward sin, chaos, death and destruction.


Quote:

We know God through His energies, and what we know from them is good because they bring life, order, flourishing. When we do good deeds, we're not copying what we call good, we are actively participating in God's eternal activities, and that goodness acts upon us. As opposed to picking between external standard and arbitrary divine will, here good is the eternal action of God Himself, made known through participation.

If God is goodness. . . . How do we know if certain actions or energies can be described as good? Well, we know they are good because those actions are a part of God or energies of God. And how do know that God's actions and energies are good? Well, because the definition of good is synonymous with God. And so it feels to me like we've defined 'good' in such a way that it cannot be divorced from 'God'. And so to ask if God is good is just asking if God is God. And to ask if God is not good or to ask how we know God is good feels nonsensical under these presuppositions and definitions of God.

My question is how does life, order, and flourishing correspond to God's goodness without appeal to external standard? Is it simply defining God as goodness? And I'm overthinking it?

If your position is that actions promote life, order, and flourishing are actions that are consistent with who you believe God to be and that this is what you believe to be the definition of good. . . . . then I think I understand.

------

When people challenge God's goodness by pointing to an observation that suggests cruelty, they may be appealing to an external standard. It may be my opinion that an action that is being attributed to God is evil or cruel, but in doing so, I am appealing to my own moral intuition. It is possible that I fully misread your post, but it feels to me that your descriptions of knowing and understanding of God's goodness require abdication of our personal moral intuitions. While I accept that this challenge to God's goodness is operating on a false understanding of how goodness works in Christianity, I think that it may be intentional. For me, the purpose of these types of challenges is to point out that the goodness as defined as 'identical with God' does not need to follow our intuitions and may in fact contradict them. And then to ask, is it valuable for humans to consider our own intuitions and empathies? If any moral intuition we possess is outside of God, then it cannot be good.

From an outside perspective, if feels like Christianity tells us that we are all unique and special and individual. . . but every spec of uniqueness and specialness and individuality that is not exactly God, is not good. We are meant to emulate our values and actions to that of God. And so what is left of us beyond that which we must match up toward God? Do we get to pick our own favorite color and favorite foods still?


Quote:

The hypothetical of sadistic torture being called good (back to Euthyphro) is already answered - such actions are not life-giving or coherent with the image of God the Father revealed perfectly in the person of Jesus Christ, who loves His enemies, forgives them, and dies to free them from death and slavery.

I recognize that a literal Hell is not consistent with what many Christians believe. Obviously, there are many Christians that do believe in a literal Hell with torture. My earlier postings about a torturous Hell probably don't apply to your beliefs.


Quote:

Free will is not as small of an idea as choosing between an arbitrary set of options. That's an objection I've seen here said, that humans aren't free because they can't fly - if so, only God is free, which is fine and true, but then we need to have another term to re-enter human experience. Instead freedom is the freedom to flourish, to grow toward our purpose, our teleological end. The call is not to pick between submission and torture, but to proceed toward what you were created for, life...a truly good, abundant, flourishing life. Not choosing your existence, or your sinfulness, or your need for salvation doesn't negate your free will even though it does negate you not being free like God is free. All you've established here is that You Are Not God.

Do I get a say in my purpose? Are the parameters of a 'good, abundant, and flourishing life' absolute and set in stone? In this life, I am permitted to determine what flourishing means to me? Even if I'm "wrong" by the standard that is God. What about after this life? After this life am I permitted to continue to determine my own purpose?

This may sound strange, but the description of Hell as simply being some level of separation from God does not sound unappealing. And let me be perfectly clear that this is not because of some hatred or dislike or aversion to God.

I have friends with whom I disagree with. This does not mean I hate them. I respect their positions, think its great that we can have civil disagreement, and all of this makes life interesting and colorful. This analogy quickly breaks down because my relationship to my friends are not the same as the proposed relationship between me and God. The purpose of bringing it up is to demonstrate that there is a version of being in harmony with someone does not mandate that we must be identical.

In this way, some form of separation from God in the afterlife does not feel confrontational. And it doesn't feel hostile. God is still the Superior and God is still the Creator. A relationship where one party demands absolute conformity from another party is simply authoritarianism.

I could pretend to image a version of the afterlife which still includes the uniqueness of individuals. The typical charge at this point is that I wish to be God. That by holding onto my individuality and by wishing to consider morality and goodness from my perspective, that I am trying to supplant God's authority. On the contrary, I think I am doing the exact opposite. If I am me - and not God, why should I pretend to be anything other than me. Why would God create billions of individuals in hope that we should all abandon individuality to become exactly as God is? I think that there is an argument to be made that those who wish to model all that they are in the image of God are the ones that are trying to be God.

Is there not humility in 'being yourself' rather than fashioning ourselves in false mimicry of a divine perfection?

What form of individuality do you think might persist in the afterlife? Do we retain preferences? Personality? Moral agency?
kurt vonnegut
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BusterAg said:


I think that it is important to note that all of the description of eternal torture discussed in the Bible relates only to the Devil and demons. The Bible talks a lot about hell being a bad place that you don't want to be in, but the idea of eternal torture being held for humans that reject God comes more from Dante than the Bible.

Again, I think that Kierkegaard does a better job of addressing the paradox of eternity than most others. For the true seeking mind to really accept the notion of God, one has to come to a place of acceptance that we just won't be able to really understand all of the things about eternity and the spiritual realm because we are physically limited from being able to accomplish it.

For a Western philosophy enlightenment thinker, that just feels like a cop-out. But, the longer I live and the more I experience, the more comfortable I become with the humility that the nature of God and the spiritual realm are just beyond our comprehension, and that is just OK.

Yes, much of the popular visuals of Hell are not directly from the Bible. The Bible does contain some language that I think supports those popular visuals - lake of fire, darkness, weeping, gnashing of teeth, place of torment, fire, sulphur, unquenchable fire, etc.

I don't think your answer is a cop out. As far as I am concerned, admissions of 'I don't know' is a perfectly honest and valid response to a difficult question, even after sincere and thoughtful consideration. My instinct is to trust the person that doesn't claim to have divine knowledge over the one that does.
dermdoc
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Quo Vadis? said:

dermdoc said:

You might want to try out an Orthdox or non denominational church. There are a lot of Christian's and churches who do not preach ECT hell based on Scripture.
Derm, unless I'm having a stroke, 90% of the posters who are arguing with you over the eternal nature of hell are orthodox.


David Bentley Hart is a Christian Universalist and is Orthodox. And if I am not mistaken, the Orthodox view of hell is totally different from the ECT hell of a lot of the West.

Orthodox believe we are all in the presence of God and for those that
love God it is bliss and for those who reject God ir is "hell". It is more of a state of being.

Catholics believe it means separation from God. Which also is more of a state of being.

These are totally different than Reformed and fundamentalists who believe there are two places people go. Heaven or Hell. There is no free will so it is all decided by God. And God is actually administering the punishment. It is a zero sum game. You and I were destined to hell by a "loving" God before
We were born.

No choice. No free will to accept or reject.

I do not agree with that. And do not think it is Scripturally sound.

The character of God is totally different in the Orthodox, Catholic, mainstream Protestant, and most non denominational churches.

And there is robust defense of ECT hell by Reformed posters also.

But you know what, if thinking Reformed theology gives posters the ability to get closer to the Lord, than so be it.
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Zobel
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I think the difference is approaching it from a philosophical angle or even like a logical puzzle. I think if I go back to the Orthodox perspective here it will help clarify how life, order, flourishing, etc connect to God's goodness without an appeal to an external standard. I don't think you're overthinking it necessarily, I just think you're asking for a question that doesn't actually have a useful answer.

In a sense you are correct that defining God as goodness makes it impossible to ask whether or not God is good. In our theology there isn't a separate standard of goodness that we can measure God against. You can't say whether or not God is good based on some scorecard, which is Euthyphro's first horn. We reject that because it puts something above God and contradicts His absolute freedom. And we also don't say good is whatever God is, because that second horn also makes "God is good" meaningless. Instead it is that His goodness is known through His eternal actions, and they're not good because they match a definition of good, they're good because they're God at work, and we experience them as good because they bring life, etc.

So then you ask well how do we know they are good without that criterion? Isn't that just defining God as good? And the answer is actually no, because what we're not doing is measuring against a philosophical yardstick of goodness. What we're doing is encountering them. When we say that His energies promote life, order, justice, we're not making a definition statement, we're describing an experienced reality of what happens when humans participate in His activities or energies. When you do something kind for someone, you are not following a rule that describes what you're doing as good, you are participating in the eternal love of God, and when you do that, you participate in and experience that love, and it is good for you and that other person, and you flourish. You become more alive, you become more human. It's an experiential reality, not a logical solution.

When Christ says "I come so that you may have life, and have it abundantly" it isn't a kind of sales pitch, it is what He does, and we know that's what happens because we've experienced it. When you experience it - say, by loving someone who hates you - you are freed, you flourish. It isn't defining God as goodness, it is describing God as He reveals Himself, and we call that good because that is what we experience when we encounter Him. There is no external standard to verify this against, because there's nothing above God to measure with, you don't need an external standard to know anything more than you need a chemical composition to know that food tastes good, or a special thermometer to know if fire is hot.

If you say well then that makes questions about "is God good" or "how do we know He is good" nonsensical, and in a way it does, but that's because the premise of those questions requires goodness outside of God to measure God against, which is a category error. Just like it doesn't make sense to say "is fire hot" or "how do we know fire is hot" - you actually run into those same kind of definitional problems (what is temperature? what is energy? I mean, really?)

In the end it isn't that we're saying that life etc are good because that's who we believe God is - it's close - but instead that is the way God has revealed Himself to be in the scriptures, in human encounters, in Jesus Christ, and in our ongoing experience of His activities. Us saying those are good is not imposing a definition but recognizing something.

Quote:

is it valuable for humans to consider our own intuitions and empathies? If any moral intuition we possess is outside of God, then it cannot be good.

From an outside perspective, if feels like Christianity tells us that we are all unique and special and individual. . . but every spec of uniqueness and specialness and individuality that is not exactly God, is not good. We are meant to emulate our values and actions to that of God. And so what is left of us beyond that which we must match up toward God? Do we get to pick our own favorite color and favorite foods still?
Yeah I think this misses the mark a lot. Rather than what you put forward here, I would say that humanity itself is good, and was created in the image of God. To the degree that it embraces what it truly is and is meant to be, it is good. To the extent that it rejects that, it is bad. You individuality is not part of your human nature. You need to make a distinction between you as person and you as human. You can be a unique person and an excellent human and be distinct from another unique person who is also an excellent human. Your individuality and unique qualities were created so that you may be an excellent human. So to the extent that you participate in God's energies and become good, you will actually become more human, and actually more uniquely yourself. The you that you were created to be. Rather than homogenizing, the anthropology of Orthodoxy creates a radically diverse cosmos filled with unique people, and each one is teleologically destined to be a unique god by grace, perfect and special in their person, truly good in their human nature - bound to God's divine nature through their shared human nature with Jesus.

Quote:

Do I get a say in my purpose? Are the parameters of a 'good, abundant, and flourishing life' absolute and set in stone? In this life, I am permitted to determine what flourishing means to me? Even if I'm "wrong" by the standard that is God. What about after this life? After this life am I permitted to continue to determine my own purpose?
No. You cannot change your purpose as a human, which is to become like God, perfect and unique and truly human. To do that would make you not a human, which is the image of madness and insanity we get in hell in the gnashing of teeth.

Quote:

In this way, some form of separation from God in the afterlife does not feel confrontational. And it doesn't feel hostile. God is still the Superior and God is still the Creator. A relationship where one party demands absolute conformity from another party is simply authoritarianism.
You're thinking about this like some arbitrary set of rules, you want to move you queen like a knight on the board and there's like some neutrality and its unfair if you can't. I'm sorry but this is a really shallow level to think about. What I'm saying is quite a bit deeper. You either participate in goodness - which is life, order, flourishing, justice, peace, etc - or you will become dissolute and dead and chaos.

Quote:

Is there not humility in 'being yourself' rather than fashioning ourselves in false mimicry of a divine perfection?
As above you're creating a false dichotomy. The choice isn't between being you vs losing yourself in the divine, it is between being you through union with God and not being you any more, having a complete loss of identity and humanity.
dermdoc
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Ag_of_08 said:

Thank you for taking the time to answer.
You are welcome.
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dermdoc
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Zobel said:

I think first you need to get past the more elementary understanding of good and evil. For example your re-presentation of the Euthyphro dilemma (does God command actions because they are good or are actions good because God commands them?) is again a framework that doesn't produce a solution; the former undermines God by appealing to an external standard, and the latter becomes a tautology when we're trying to understand the goodness of God.

We can't assume a morally neutral framework, or even a naturalistic one. The former, because then we have no means to actually understand, the latter because different societies derive different ethics from "nature". We also can't appeal to pre-Christian understandings of good and bad because these were about qualities as opposed to actions - virtues were about excellence, not moral goodness, and this justified societal structures such as slavery.

If you want to take a Christian ethical framework (e.g., equality of worth of human life because it is human) that's fine, but then you also can't reject it out of hand without justification. You need to show why Christian ethics are superior or inferior or preferred to pre-Christian / pagan frameworks which find Christian ethics ridiculous.

Because you are a westerner you likely assume a Christian framework, broadly speaking. If we want to understand good and evil within that framework we should start with the axiom not of goodness but of evil. Evil itself IS the power of sin that humanity becomes enslaved to, which brings death and destruction and masters humans to their destruction. This is contrasted to goodness, which is justice, righteousness, order, life - and specifically flourishing life, good life, not just continued biological existence. But this is not sufficient in itself to describe God's goodness, because He is not limited to justice, or order as opposed to chaos, or flourishing as opposed to decay.

God has absolute freedom, and is not bound by necessity, or an external standard like justice, or even a teleological progression (i.e. God has no "aim" or "end-state"). This is why He is God, uncreated, unchanging. This is why He is distinct from both created beings like humans and even the claims of the pagan gods. We Christians understand that this freedom is part of Who and What He Is, His essential essence, which is beyond knowing or defining or categorization, being before and above and distinct from all created things.

His goodness becomes known to us by His actions, which we call His energies (from the Greek for work). These actions are part of Him, they are God, and they are eternal activities - loving, creating, healing, showing mercy, etc. They become known to us in time as we experience them. Good, then, is God's divine nature in action, a kind of vector sum of His energies.

For humans to be good, then, is for us to participate in those energies, and this is how humans are both healed of sin and flourish in life. Goodness and freedom come from this participation, because it frees us from the slavery to sin, chaos, death, and destruction.

This breaks the Euthyphro dilemma which is asking us to know whether things are good because God slaps the good label on them vs saying "He does good things so we call Him good". The problem is the Platonic mindset that expects goodness to be a form or abstract quality that requires an external reference point for meaning. Instead, God is personal and relational (a main difference between Platonic and Christian theology). We know God through His energies, and what we know from them is good because they bring life, order, flourishing. When we do good deeds, we're not copying what we call good, we are actively participating in God's eternal activities, and that goodness acts upon us. As opposed to picking between external standard and arbitrary divine will, here good is the eternal action of God Himself, made known through participation.

So - that being said - with good itself is so experienced and defined - I think you can see the challenge to Plato framework you're assuming here. God did not arbitrarily assume punishment. God's eternal actions are good, and life-giving, and being separated from them is chaos and separation from life: death itself. Death begins with physical death, and culminates in spiritual death.

The premise of coercion and torture you're assuming are not givens. Hell is not a masochistic torture pit. The image of hell - weeping and gnashing of teeth - is that of insanity, of loss of coherence of being. Loss of humanity, which is a loss of the image of God. If people are in hell, this hell is one of love, perceived as bad by those who hate Him - not because He wills them to suffer.

Your analogy of soldier and captive fail in the same way. This isn't a coercive tyrant setting arbitrary rules - the "rules" of love, righteousness, life, flourishing are God's eternal actions, His being in action. Rejecting this life and flourishing is not a choice between subjugation and punishment.

Similarly He is not subject to necessity. He is totally free. He is not bound to punish, reward, create in any way whatever. So while God could absolutely reprogram minds, what we know of God as revealed by His energies - which are again oriented to life, order, flourishing, mercy, love - would be contradicted by this type of manipulation or domination.

The hypothetical of sadistic torture being called good (back to Euthyphro) is already answered - such actions are not life-giving or coherent with the image of God the Father revealed perfectly in the person of Jesus Christ, who loves His enemies, forgives them, and dies to free them from death and slavery.

Free will is not as small of an idea as choosing between an arbitrary set of options. That's an objection I've seen here said, that humans aren't free because they can't fly - if so, only God is free, which is fine and true, but then we need to have another term to re-enter human experience. Instead freedom is the freedom to flourish, to grow toward our purpose, our teleological end. The call is not to pick between submission and torture, but to proceed toward what you were created for, life...a truly good, abundant, flourishing life. Not choosing your existence, or your sinfulness, or your need for salvation doesn't negate your free will even though it does negate you not being free like God is free. All you've established here is that You Are Not God.

Nevertheless your life, and mine, and all of ours, are gifts given to us for our salvation toward the best possible end any of us could imagine and more. Sin distorts this, and our sins are our participation in that distortion, not a "design flaw" from God. Salvation is our choice to participate in our own freedom. Humans are not passive victims of a divine game, but created with divinely-imaged agency, and are active participants who can choose to live... or to die. So the soldier analogy breaks down, because we're not talking about arbitrary penalties but intrinsic outcomes. If you refuse to eat you certainly will die. The person who tells you this is not the one who kills you, particularly if they continually offer you food.

A sadistic God calling torture good contradicts our knowledge of God's divine energies as life-giving, merciful, plenteous in mercy, longsuffering, compassionate, loving, and self-sacrificing - and so cannot be good, is incoherent with good. Your arguments are emotionally compelling, but ultimately come from a legalistic and Platonic view of Good and Justice that are not aligned with the theology and philosophy of the Church.
This is outstanding. The last paragraph particularly. God's character is not sadistic, and the idea of God willingly inflicting punishment on His created beings is grotesque to me. I can go along with His created beings rejecting Him via our free will.

I also believe, as you stated, that Jesus came to give us the most abundant life we can experience. Full of love, laughter, joy, peace, and contentment. Becoming more Christ like. Becoming what God created us to be. Truly being born again.

Not just to avoid "hell" or to "get to heaven". How can you truly know God loves you and how can you truly love God if that is all the Gospel is?


Thanks.
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Aggrad08
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The sidestep of taking the argument that gods nature is good doesn't actually get you past euthyphro you simply take a the two logical branches and make them epistemological. Why is gods nature good? How do we know? How would we know if it wasn't? Well you say we experience that. Oh how, which experiences would inform that, which would contradict that? Ultimately you need a criteria of some sort, be it logical, experiential, something. And even with experience there are positives and negatives.

To use experience is ultimately to judge god by something outside of god. To not use it is to simply assume the answer. And thus we are back to euthyphro.

When it comes to an ETC hell that many on this thread believe in. It's both a logical and experiential evidence that god is not good. It's virtually impossible to come up with a satisfactory "why" of it all.
Zobel
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I don't care how strongly you assert the premise, I still deny it.

There is no formal system that doesn't require a base axiom. Is reality a formal ststem?
Aggrad08
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And I don't care how firmly it's asserted but I reject "god is all good" as a base axiom. I particularly reject it when it's applied to any given revelation.
 
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