Tertullian and Origen, while they no doubt were heroes in some respects, had their fair share of faulty theology.

Augustine was much inspired by Ambrose. Let's say they both were writing more speculatively.

I don't know, purgatory just seems like one of the harder dots to connect in traditional Catholic tradition.

If we're talking pre-medieval as in before 500 AD, we can easily add St. Cyprian (as already mentioned), St John Chrysostom, St Basil the Great and St Gregory of Nyssa. I can provide quotes if you'd like

As to musings becoming doctrines, that how basically everything worked. The fathers knew Jesus was fully God and fully man, but they didn't have the words to explain it. The doctrines of the trinity and hypostatic union is defined out of their musings on how such a thing could be explained.

Purgatory is no different. We know many faithful are not pure in this life. We know they will be before God. Something has to change between life and death. You and I would agree on this, I think. The question of how is what we would seek clarification on. The earliest fathers, as noted above, believed in a purification process.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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And there are plenty, plenty more. You should really brush up on this topic before tossing out nonsense

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I thought this was an honest debate "in the spirit of Charlie Kirk".

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As did I.

The Banned said:

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As to musings becoming doctrines, that how basically everything worked. The fathers knew Jesus was fully God and fully man, but they didn't have the words to explain it. The doctrines of the trinity and hypostatic union is defined out of their musings on how such a thing could be explained.

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It is fascinating to go back and see that many of the first ecumenical councils were essentially arguing over which WORDS (i.e. homoousios) were the most appropriate to explain the Godhead. It was important, however.

And which of the innumerable Protestant denominations shall the catholic be arguing against?

Too much Port tonight...Will respond tomorrow.....I love you all!

10andBOUNCE said:

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Thaddeus73 said:

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They (Protestants) sometimes pull certain verses of the bible out of context, ignoring other verses.

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Is your premise that Catholics are immune to this?

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Jeremiah 29:11, I'm sure it's been abused by both sides

Th concept of purgatory hinted at by St. Paul....

1 Corinthians 3: 10 According to the commission of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

2 Maccabees 12:46 Is the most clear reference, it's why Luther removed this book from his cannon.

Honolulu Blue said:

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And which of the innumerable Protestant denominations shall the catholic be arguing against?

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If you ever need a good strawman, you can start with the Oneness Pentecostals or the 7th Day Adventists.

Sometimes I consider it , shall I say, not very fair to be labeled a "protestant" in the same breath as some of these outlier groups.