PabloSerna said:

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I was going to post a longer response, but it was a bit confusing and needs to be cleaned up.

The short answer is that Pope Francis in 2021, actually addressed this very issue, building upon what Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II had written going back to 1995. Essentially Francis said that certain criteria must be met before one could deny the Eucharist to someone who presented themselves at communion.

" if you are close, and tender, and compassionate with a person, you have to give Communion"

Looking at what the Archbishop said, "in most cases" seems to be in alignment- only he would know. To another Bishop that may not be the case. Francis later said of the Eucharist "is not a prize for the perfect, but a generous medicine and food for the weak" (Evangelii Gaudium).

This understanding recalls Pope Saint Pius X saying the very same thing when he denounced the Jansenist heresy in 1910.

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PabloSerna said:

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Actually I think the people like yourself and others who turn the holy Eucharist into a prize for the righteous few will be the ones having to explain themselves to Christ.

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PabloSerna said:

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Actually I think the people like yourself and others who turn the holy Eucharist into a prize for the righteous few will be the ones having to explain themselves to Christ.

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PabloSerna said:

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Did the Roman soldiers who beat Jesus to a pulp repent and then were forgiven? No. Jesus forgave them anyway.

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PabloSerna said:

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Maybe I misunderstood your mortal sin reference- mea culpa.

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PabloSerna said:

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Did the Roman soldiers who beat Jesus to a pulp repent and then were forgiven? No. Jesus forgave them anyway.

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PabloSerna said:

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Recall that we are discussing denying communion to persons who present themselves.

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Quote:

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Did the Roman soldiers who beat Jesus to a pulp repent and then were forgiven? No. Jesus forgave them anyway.

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PabloSerna said:

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Recall that we are discussing denying communion to persons who present themselves.

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747Ag said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Recall that we are discussing denying communion to persons who present themselves.

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I'm well aware of the topic. St. Paul's admonition is on point. Bishops and priests denying public sinners the Eucharist is fully inline with St Paul.

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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747Ag said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Recall that we are discussing denying communion to persons who present themselves.

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I'm well aware of the topic. St. Paul's admonition is on point. Bishops and priests denying public sinners the Eucharist is fully inline with St Paul.

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It's the denial that is the act of mercy in such cases.

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Zobel said:

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If our only guidance is "God forgives" and that overrules any and a ecclesiastical discipline or penance, then ecclesiastical discipline is not a thing.

However, ecclesiastical discipline is a thing.

Therefore your approach cannot be correct.

And I think your last post is at odds with the canons, and church history, and recent teachings.

Canons for the RCC
https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib4-cann879-958_en.html

Church history regarding penance
https://pls.nd.edu/assets/154653/2._basil._canonical_letters_selection

Recent teaching
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/discipline-regarding-the-denial-of-holy-communion-to-those-obstinately-persevering-in-manifest-grave-sin-1230

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PabloSerna said:

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No I don't. As a Eucharistic Minister, I have never been instructed by a priest or bishop to ever do such a thing. Why then would I do so on my own accord? However, I would obey if told so to be clear.

Thanks Zobel for the EWTN links, I like others who have closely followed this over the years are well familiar with that part of the history debated here in the USA. There is more however and you will need to get those links added in if you want to tell the full truth.

In a nutshell, the USCCB, felt compelled to do something, what they did not know, but they agreed to get together and draft a statement. You can imagine when all the bishops get together there is going to be a difference of opinion on how what pastoral guidance should be for everyone. To be clear, no bishop is in favor of abortion in the way some Catholic politicians have voted.

The issue is how to deal with known pro-abortion Catholic politicians who present themselves for communion. In the end, what started out as a sure fire document to set rules for ALL dioceses in the US, it did not come out that way. In part because the Vatican gave a warning not to politicize the Eucharist and instead to emphasize the healing power of the sacrament for the weary. Also, because like 10 parents in a room discussing how to deal with Johnny - they each had a different take.

So again- Abp Coakly understands that when he states in most cases- but not all. Only he would know, because only a Bishop can make those decisions for his diocese.

Maybe something worth considering, both Pelosi and Biden were denied communion- Pelosi by her Bishop (important) and Biden by a priest while on the campaign trail in South Carolina - both received communion at the Vatican.

The takeaway here is that this a pastoral matter.

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PabloSerna said:

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Very familiar with the position of other Bishops on this matter as it was a topic throughly discussed at that time for my other circle of religious folks.

In the end, we saw the value of healing and mercy as paramount in the life of the faithful. We felt strongly that Jesus died on the cross in the hope of changing the hearts of people who support abortion. We felt that only Christ can change the heart of even the most ardent pro-abortion advocate.

For the USCCB, they punted and left the decision up to individual Bishops, writing in 2021, "It is the special responsibility of the diocesan bishop to work to remedy situations that involve public actions at variance with the visible communion of the Church and the moral law,"

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PabloSerna said:

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Because it may be the only way to save them.

You are arguing pastoral approaches. Do you not realize that other bishops know exactly the same Canon Law and yet choose differently than what you and some other bishops advocate?

At the EM level we can only do what we are told. Acting on your own is politicizing because it is taking the authority out of the local Bishop's hands and acting on your own. We as a church have rules and prudence is a virtue.

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