Calvin never rejected man's responsibility.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Calvin never rejected man's responsibility.

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On salvation? If after salvation I agree.

Total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistible grace to me mean man has no responsibility for his salvation. Or damnation. Am I wrong?

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Calvin never rejected man's responsibility.

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On salvation? If after salvation I agree.

Total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistible grace to me mean man has no responsibility for his salvation. Or damnation. Am I wrong?

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I encourage you to read the words of Calvin himself and draw your own conclusions. By some modern definitions, Calvin would not have been a Calvinist.

I have read him. And a lot I agree with. He is a pretty straight forward advocate of double predestination. And completely re defined the concept and emphasis on election/predestination. Not sure why that was necessary and not sure it is Biblical when you look at Scripture as a whole.

10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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The fact that the "bible alone" teaching started in the 1500s has led to as many splits as it has should be more than enough evidence to show it's untrue.

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How do you reconcile these quotes?

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373)
"The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth."
- Contra Gentes, 1.3

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 313-386)
"For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures."
- Catechetical Lectures, 4.17

Augustine of Hippo (354-430)
"In those things which are plainly laid down in Scripture are found all things that concern faith and the manner of life."
- On Christian Doctrine, 2.9

John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
"Therefore, I beg you, let us hold fast to the rule of Scripture, and not introduce anything of our own."
- Homilies on 2 Corinthians, Homily 13
"All things are clear and open that are in the divine Scriptures; the necessary things are all plain."
- Homilies on 2 Thessalonians, Homily 3

Basil the Great (c. 330-379)
"We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture."
- On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
"Let God-inspired Scripture decide between us."
- Letters, 189

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Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373) extended quote:

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For although the sacred and inspired Scriptures are sufficient to declare the truth while there are other works of our blessed teachers compiled for this purpose, if he meet with which a man will gain some knowledge of the interpretation of the Scriptures, and be able to learn what he wishes to know still, as we have not at present in our hands the compositions of our teachers, we must communicate in writing to you what we learned from them

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Scripture still needed teachers to be understood, as Athanasius states. And he is teaching on this topic based on the extra-biblical teaching he received.


Cyril: Also said in Letter 5:

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12. But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to you by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures. For since all cannot read the Scriptures, some being hindered as to the knowledge of them by want of learning, and others by a want of leisure, in order that the soul may not perish from ignorance, we comprise the whole doctrine of the Faith in a few lines.

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In other words, the Faith is given to you by the Church, which the Church takes from the scriptures. It's not the scripture by itself.

Augustine: again, the whole quote:

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For among the things that are plainly laid down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life to wit, hope and love, of which I have spoken in the previous book.

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He saying that hope and love are plainly laid out in scripture, as seen in his first book in this work. Not every single matter of doctrine. He also says in that book:

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For if he takes up rashly a meaning which the author whom he is reading did not intend, he often falls in with other statements which he cannot harmonize with this meaning. And if he admits that these statements are true and certain, then it follows that the meaning he had put upon the former passage cannot be the true one

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so Spurgeon is out of luck here if he is saying both are found but can't be harmonized. He also says in book 4 chapter 33:

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Now if any one says that we need not direct men how or what they should teach, since the Holy Spirit makes them teachers, he may as well say that we need not pray, since our Lord says, Your Father knows what things you have need of before ye ask Him; Matthew 6:8 or that the Apostle Paul should not have given directions to Timothy and Titus as to how or what they should teach others

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The whole writing is about how to interpret scripture because scripture isn't always clear. And he also lists OT books that you wouldn't consider scripture. Not to mention he espouses many doctrines you would say are wrong which he says are clearly in scripture.

Not sure where you got that Chrysostom quote. Here is what I find at that citation:

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Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things

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"These things" refer to the specific topic he was writing on at the time. That's not "bible alone"


For Basil, he says he doesn't "only" rely on the fathers. But he is relying on them along with Scripture, which isn't bible alone. In chapter 27 of the same document he says:

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Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or publicly enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us in a mystery by the tradition of the apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force

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dermdoc said:

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TeddyAg0422 said:

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Do you think someone can at one point be saved and then lose their salvation?

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Not if they are truly saved.

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This struck me as odd. Curious as to your thoughts on the devil being created perfect but then still choosing to reject God. Probably been numerous OSAS debates here, but immediately my mind went to someone who was created perfect and in perfect grace but then choosing to reject that perfection. I find it very similar to getting out of confession and being in a perfect state of grace, but then inevitably rejecting God again. I get that angels are different and Lucifer's choice was indeed and knowingly permanent. But would imagine humans mirror that, only our decisions are not permanent until our death.

10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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He is admitting both are contained in God's word.

God predestines
Man accepts or rejects

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Not that part. The part where he calls himself a Calvinist, while espousing Arminian theology, and not even realize it. He thinks Arminianism means that man moves first. Arminianism does not teach this. That's why he admits he may sound to Arminian. For some reason he couldn't see it.

If you took this writing back in time and showed it to Luther and Calvin, they would say he sounds too Catholic.

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Ok? And if you showed the current Pope to any of the early Church Fathers they would be aghast.

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Doubtful. We have a 1st century pope telling another diocese well outside of his territory what to do. There are plenty of writings that talk about the primacy of Church in Rome. The idea of the pope as head of the church wouldn't be some crazy notion to them. Similar to how the word "trinity" would be novel to them but the concept, when explained, would not.

I found this X post relevant

A man said "I accept Jesus Christ" on his deathbed.

The church asked if he really meant it.

I need to ask you something.

When did we become the gatekeepers of grace?

I've watched Christians dissect Scott Adams' final words like prosecutors.

They parsed his phrases. They… pic.twitter.com/F8X9Xi9HKE

— The Biblical Man | 4 AM Field Notes (@Biblicalman) January 14, 2026

Absolutely yes whosoever calls upon the Lord.

The question that is not answered there is what does it mean to call upon the Lord?

Ok you guys have me looking at the Catechism of the Catholic Church & The BOOK of DISCIPLINE OF THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH 2008 about salvation. I can tell you I know that you are better read on all things religious than I am by what has already been posted.

So this is from the Catechism which I'm choosing from the index Salvation "God opens the way to man's," 54,56,218,431,781,1058,2575 I'm choosing ones that I believe pertain to our conversation. I will do the Methodist later.

In the beginning God makes himself known 54 "God, who creates and conserves all things by his Word, provides men with constant evidence of himself in created realities. And furthermore, wishing to open up the way to heavenly salvation, he manifested himself to our first parents from the very beginning."6 He invited them to intimate communion with himself and clothed them with resplendent grace and justice. 32

431 In the history of salvation God was not content to deliver Israel "out of the house of bondage"20 by bringing them out of Egypt. He also saves them from their sin. Because sin is always an offense against God, only he can forgive it.21 For this reason Israel, becoming more and more aware of the universality of sin, will no longer be able to seek salvation except by invoking the name of the Redeemer God.22

781 "At all times and in every race, anyone who fears God and does what is right has been acceptable to him. He has, however, willed to make men holy and save them, not as individuals without any bond or link between them, but rather to make them into a people who might acknowledge him and serve him in holiness. He therefore chose the Israelite race to be his own people and established a covenant with it. He gradually instructed this people. . . . All these things, however, happened as a preparation for and figure of that new and perfect covenant which was to be ratified in Christ . . . the New Covenant in his blood; he called together a race made up of Jews and Gentiles which would be one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit."201

This one is powerful
1058 The Church prays that no one should be lost: "Lord, let me never be parted from you." If it is true that no one can save himself, it is also true that God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), and that for him "all things are possible" (Mt 19:26).

2575 Here again the initiative is God's. From the midst of the burning bush he calls Moses.20 This event will remain one of the primordial images of prayer in the spiritual tradition of Jews and Christians alike. When "the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob" calls Moses to be his servant, it is because he is the living God who wants men to live. God reveals himself in order to save them, though he does not do this alone or despite them: he calls Moses to be his messenger, an associate in his compassion, his work of salvation. There is something of a divine plea in this mission, and only after long debate does Moses attune his own will to that of the Savior God. But in the dialogue in which God confides in him, Moses also learns how to pray: he balks, makes excuses, above all questions: and it is in response to his question that the Lord confides his ineffable name, which will be revealed through his mighty deeds.

Saving one's own soul:

1889 Without the help of grace, men would not know how "to discern the often narrow path between the cowardice which gives in to evil, and the violence which under the illusion of fighting evil only makes it worse."13 This is the path of charity, that is, of the love of God and of neighbor. Charity is the greatest social commandment. It respects others and their rights. It requires the practice of justice, and it alone makes us capable of it. Charity inspires a life of self-giving: "Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it."14

There lots of sub index subjects & concepts index under Salvation. I tried to pick items that I thought were relevant but will look at it tomorrow in the morning.

One thing that kept popping in my head was the Prodigal Son and Scott Adams did he step over the threshold when he said I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I think he did and from the parable Jesus told the Father would be full of joy and wouldn't let him leave. I know one thing God and Scott Adams probably has a lot of us talking about Salvation.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Absolutely yes whosoever calls upon the Lord.

The question that is not answered there is what does it mean to call upon the Lord?

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Seems pretty straightforward to me. But we want to make it hard.

Man says "It can't be that easy". Scripture says it is

Likely we as humans all make things a bit more complicated than what it needs to be.

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Likely we as humans all make things a bit more complicated than what it needs to be.

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

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Agree. That verse is interpreted by my ECT hell friends as pertaining to the classic concept of heaven and hell.

i point out that the word heaven, hell, and eternity are not mentioned. The words mentioned are destruction and life. Nothing about ECT hell or heaven. They do not like that.

And it pretty obvious to me the narrow gate is Jesus. Not any of our efforts or works.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Likely we as humans all make things a bit more complicated than what it needs to be.

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

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Agree. That verse is interpreted by my ECT hell friends as pertaining to the classic concept of heaven and hell.

i point out that the word heaven, hell, and eternity are not mentioned. The words mentioned are destruction and life. Nothing about ECT hell or heaven. They do not like that.

And it pretty obvious to me the narrow gate is Jesus. Not any of our efforts or works.

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Dermdoc sorry I don't understand could you please expand on your belief of heaven & hell for me. Thank you.

KentK93 said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Likely we as humans all make things a bit more complicated than what it needs to be.

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

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Agree. That verse is interpreted by my ECT hell friends as pertaining to the classic concept of heaven and hell.

i point out that the word heaven, hell, and eternity are not mentioned. The words mentioned are destruction and life. Nothing about ECT hell or heaven. They do not like that.

And it pretty obvious to me the narrow gate is Jesus. Not any of our efforts or works.

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Dermdoc sorry I don't understand could you please expand on your belief of heaven & hell for me. Thank you.

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A real good source is NT Wright in my opinion. He can do a much better job than me.

When we die, there are basically two Scriptural schools of thoughts. Either we "fall asleep" until Jesus returns, or as believers are in the presence of the Lord and the evil are in Hades. Not necessarily being punished except for not being in the presence of the Lord.

There is no judgement until Christ returns according to Scripture. When Christ returns, all people are resurrected for judgement. Believers at the Bemah seat by Christ and evil people and those who reject Christ at the great white throne.

Believers are already saved from judgement but may incur additional crowns as rewards. They do not "go to heaven" but occupy the New Jerusalem on the new earth. God comes down to them and it here is perfect bliss with no death, illness, sadness, etc.

The false prophet, Satan, and interestingly death are thrown into the lake of fire. Including death indicates destruction because how do you eternally consciously torment death?

The evil and those who reject Christ (I believe ever person created by God gets a chance even after death) are also thrown in the lake of fire. To me, by the inclusion of death as mentioned before, there are only two possibilities. Either destruction (annihilationism) or refining punishment.

ECT does not make sense to me as how do you punish death eternally?

I like this