AGC said:

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From my reading ignores opportunity cost to present an overly simplistic positive outlook.

Where are remittances removing money from the economy? Lost income taxes or jobs from the cash economy crowding out citizens? Increased insurance costs for healthcare and autos for the system? Abstract didn't touch those, and also ends, sadly, before the explosion in funding over Biden that would tank it all.

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This was a multi decade study done by Cato which is not exactly a left wing organization. I would be willing to bet they factored in all those things.

TresPuertas said:

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Macarthur said:

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Since a significant portion of this thread centered around immigration, I felt this would be an interesting piece to interject.

I am not in favor of open borders, from a policy perspective, but I do hate that there has been so much demagoguery around the immigration issue.

https://www.cato.org/blog/cato-study-immigrants-reduced-deficits-145-trillion-1994

We now know pretty defiinitively that immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than natural born citizens, and that includes violent crimes. And now we know that not only are they not a drain on our system economically, they have actually propped our system for the last several decades.

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They didn't differentiate between legal and illegal. This automatically disqualifies it as being credible

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Just because you don't like the data, doesn't mean you just dismiss. I takes both into consideration asd specifically addresses immigrants that pay into a system that they rarely, if ever, get the benefit.

if you refuse to acknowledge that throwing all Immigrants into one bucket and extracting data is completely insane and dishonest then i will not have a conversation with you. Pretending Persian, Indian, chinese H1B immigrants are the same as illegal day labor immigrants is completely dishonest per the conversation at hand.

but let's do this. I'll state my position plainly.

I believe in legal immigration. that those who come here legally and pay taxes are a net positive on our economy.

these are different than illegal immigrants and it's inappropriate to categorize them as the same and presenting a study that doesn't differentiate should be dismissed as ridiculous. which i am

Quote:

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We now know pretty defiinitively that immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than natural born citizens, and that includes violent crimes.

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We actually don't know that, definitively or otherwise, because we don't even properly track the data in many instances.

CATO has always been outspoken in its support for open borders.

"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 19:33-34).

Silent For Too Long said:

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Quote:

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We now know pretty defiinitively that immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than natural born citizens, and that includes violent crimes.

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We actually don't know that, definitively or otherwise, because we don't even properly track the data in many instances.

CATO has always been outspoken in its support for open borders.

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the data is very clear.

TresPuertas said:

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if you refuse to acknowledge that throwing all Immigrants into one bucket and extracting data is completely insane and dishonest then i will not have a conversation with you. Pretending Persian, Indian, chinese H1B immigrants are the same as illegal day labor immigrants is completely dishonest per the conversation at hand.

but let's do this. I'll state my position plainly.

I believe in legal immigration. that those who come here legally and pay taxes are a net positive on our economy.

these are different than illegal immigrants and it's inappropriate to categorize them as the same and presenting a study that doesn't differentiate should be dismissed as ridiculous. which i am

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.

TPS_Report said:

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"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 19:33-34).

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Jesus literally tells them and they won't listen. Shouldn't be surprised they won't listen to Cato.

TPS_Report said:

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"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 19:33-34).

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The Jewish concept of a ger toshav does not mean letting just anyone live in your country. There are rules.

Who here is advocating open borders?

Macarthur said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Quote:

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We now know pretty defiinitively that immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than natural born citizens, and that includes violent crimes.

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We actually don't know that, definitively or otherwise, because we don't even properly track the data in many instances.

CATO has always been outspoken in its support for open borders.

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the data is very clear.

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It's clearly incomplete.

Most states don't track the immigration status of criminals.

Look it up if you don't believe me.

I'm sorry what is Jesus telling us that we are not listening to?

BonfireNerd04 said:

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TPS_Report said:

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"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God" (Leviticus 19:33-34).

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The Jewish concept of a ger toshav does not mean letting just anyone live in your country. There are rules.

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Are you saying one must interpret the word of God?

Silent For Too Long said:

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Macarthur said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Quote:

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We now know pretty defiinitively that immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than natural born citizens, and that includes violent crimes.

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We actually don't know that, definitively or otherwise, because we don't even properly track the data in many instances.

CATO has always been outspoken in its support for open borders.

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the data is very clear.

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It's clearly incomplete.

Most states don't track the immigration status of criminals.

Look it up if you don't believe me.

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There are some holes but the data is very consistent over a long period of time using federal, state and local data. The data shows over long periods of time that immigrants commit less crime than natural born citiizens. period.

Macarthur said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Macarthur said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Quote:

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We now know pretty defiinitively that immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than natural born citizens, and that includes violent crimes.

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We actually don't know that, definitively or otherwise, because we don't even properly track the data in many instances.

CATO has always been outspoken in its support for open borders.

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the data is very clear.

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It's clearly incomplete.

Most states don't track the immigration status of criminals.

Look it up if you don't believe me.

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There are some holes but the data is very consistent over a long period of time using federal, state and local data. The data shows over long periods of time that immigrants commit less crime than natural born citiizens. period.

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Again, facts not in evidence. Immigrants have changed over time, so one cannot use 1990 immigration to reflect on what came over the border under Obama/biden. Also programs to pay for immigrants under Biden are not captured so the paper is already obsolete.

Period, or whatever that means.

Silent For Too Long said:

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You keep saying immigrants instead of illegal immigrants which is a giant tell.

If you actually took the time to analyze the data you would realize how insufficient it is, however, the bottom line is 100% of the crimes committed by illegal immigrants wouldn't be committed if they weren't here.

The relative lawlessness of natural born citizens is completely irrelevant to the conversation.

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While it is true that there is a distinction, there is not much difference in the states that do collect the data.

A Texas study (2012-2018) Showed that native born Americans are 2 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes than undocumented.

Native-born are 4 times more likely to be arrested for property crimes than undocumented.

Native-born are 2.5 times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes than undocumented.

Macarthur said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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You keep saying immigrants instead of illegal immigrants which is a giant tell.

If you actually took the time to analyze the data you would realize how insufficient it is, however, the bottom line is 100% of the crimes committed by illegal immigrants wouldn't be committed if they weren't here.

The relative lawlessness of natural born citizens is completely irrelevant to the conversation.

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While it is true that there is a distinction, there is not much difference in the states that do collect the data.

A Texas study (2012-2018) Showed that native born Americans are 2 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes than undocumented.

Native-born are 4 times more likely to be arrested for property crimes than undocumented.

Native-born are 2.5 times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes than undocumented.

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The flaw being, only reported crimes get noticed, right? Do most of your illegals immigrant friends seek out law enforcement help when something happens to them? Theres an entire segment of people in this country that are unreported because they don't want to go home.

AGC said:

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Macarthur said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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You keep saying immigrants instead of illegal immigrants which is a giant tell.

If you actually took the time to analyze the data you would realize how insufficient it is, however, the bottom line is 100% of the crimes committed by illegal immigrants wouldn't be committed if they weren't here.

The relative lawlessness of natural born citizens is completely irrelevant to the conversation.

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While it is true that there is a distinction, there is not much difference in the states that do collect the data.

A Texas study (2012-2018) Showed that native born Americans are 2 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes than undocumented.

Native-born are 4 times more likely to be arrested for property crimes than undocumented.

Native-born are 2.5 times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes than undocumented.

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The flaw being, only reported crimes get noticed, right? Do most of your illegals immigrant friends seek out law enforcement help when something happens to them? Theres an entire segment of people in this country that are unreported because they don't want to go home.

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We can only work with the data we have. Texas collects data on undocumented and it mirrors what we see across the country.

This comment by you strikes me as just moving the goalposts. If I don't like data, just say, 'well, we know they don't collect data from folks that won't report...'

Seems like you will never be satisfied.