Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Truly one of the most mind-boggling, gross aspects of Christian theology.

---

Please Don't lump 1 billion Catholics in that category. We believe that only God knows the heart and there is salvation for those who have never heard the good news.

---

How could a religious Jew claim to have not heard the gospel? They know exactly who Jesus is yet deny Him.

---

What if they are of the elect? And you and they don't know it?

---

I don't really understand your question. I was asking whether or not Christians say "Happy ____" to other religions. You wouldn't say these things to another Christian (a saved believer).

---

I have before. I just find it curious that the "elect" seem to be concentrated in Christian countries. I would think a loving God would have elected more in non Christian countries.
And since in your theology only God knows who the elect are, how do you know some of the Jews are not of the elect? And I have seen Jews exhibit fruits of the Spirit. And professing Christians who don't. My rich office manager close friend who stole over a million bucks from me was all into talking with me about her new Christian walk.

---

You tell other Christians "Happy Ramadan"' or "Happy Passover"? I have to admit, that's really strange…

---

I am strange. Seriously it usually is just a deal in light hearted way. I just do not see the big deal. But I am the opposite of legalistic.

PabloSerna said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Well now let's think this through.

1. They cannot hear the good news. Impossible. They have what is termed "invincible ignorance" - worth looking up.

2. God sees this and blesses them with the grace to live a good life within their own environment and way of life. Important that God acts to send them grace.

3. They live what could be called a good and fruitful life, helping others, loving their family and friends (this is the grace part).

4. They die, never knowing who Jesus was or what the Kingdom of God is for mankind.

You still think this person is damned for all eternity?

What you are asserting is that it is impossible for God to save someone through grace. Doesn't compute.

---

I agree with you.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Truly one of the most mind-boggling, gross aspects of Christian theology.

---

Please Don't lump 1 billion Catholics in that category. We believe that only God knows the heart and there is salvation for those who have never heard the good news.

---

How could a religious Jew claim to have not heard the gospel? They know exactly who Jesus is yet deny Him.

---

What if they are of the elect? And you and they don't know it?

---

I don't really understand your question. I was asking whether or not Christians say "Happy ____" to other religions. You wouldn't say these things to another Christian (a saved believer).

---

I have before. I just find it curious that the "elect" seem to be concentrated in Christian countries. I would think a loving God would have elected more in non Christian countries.
And since in your theology only God knows who the elect are, how do you know some of the Jews are not of the elect? And I have seen Jews exhibit fruits of the Spirit. And professing Christians who don't. My rich office manager close friend who stole over a million bucks from me was all into talking with me about her new Christian walk.

---

You tell other Christians "Happy Ramadan"' or "Happy Passover"? I have to admit, that's really strange…

---

I am strange. Seriously it usually is just a deal in light hearted way. I just do not see the big deal. But I am the opposite of legalistic.

---

At least it is consistent. If you believe all will be reconciled to God in the end, then sure, let everyone live as they please - it is happy indeed.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Truly one of the most mind-boggling, gross aspects of Christian theology.

---

Please Don't lump 1 billion Catholics in that category. We believe that only God knows the heart and there is salvation for those who have never heard the good news.

---

How could a religious Jew claim to have not heard the gospel? They know exactly who Jesus is yet deny Him.

---

What if they are of the elect? And you and they don't know it?

---

I don't really understand your question. I was asking whether or not Christians say "Happy ____" to other religions. You wouldn't say these things to another Christian (a saved believer).

---

I have before. I just find it curious that the "elect" seem to be concentrated in Christian countries. I would think a loving God would have elected more in non Christian countries.
And since in your theology only God knows who the elect are, how do you know some of the Jews are not of the elect? And I have seen Jews exhibit fruits of the Spirit. And professing Christians who don't. My rich office manager close friend who stole over a million bucks from me was all into talking with me about her new Christian walk.

---

You tell other Christians "Happy Ramadan"' or "Happy Passover"? I have to admit, that's really strange…

---

I am strange. Seriously it usually is just a deal in light hearted way. I just do not see the big deal. But I am the opposite of legalistic.

---

At least it is consistent. If you believe all will be reconciled to God in the end, then sure, let everyone live as they please - it is happy indeed.

---

That is not at all what I believe. My kids are the best grown adults one could imagine. And one is special needs.

What group of people did Jesus get the most angry with? I believe that was the group that called him a glutton and drunkard. And condemned him for hanging around *****s and tax collectors. Or healing on the Sabbath. Makes me think.

Ir all comes from a changed heart. People who know the Lird don't want to sin and disappoint Him. Just like I never wanted to disappoint my dad.
Complete freedom and shalom in Christ. Joy and peace.

And to me the most important fruit of the Spirit is self control. So if you have the Spirit, you have self control.

PabloSerna said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Well now let's think this through.

1. They cannot hear the good news. Impossible. They have what is termed "invincible ignorance" - worth looking up.

2. God sees this and blesses them with the grace to live a good life within their own environment and way of life. Important that God acts to send them grace.

3. They live what could be called a good and fruitful life, helping others, loving their family and friends (this is the grace part).

4. They die, never knowing who Jesus was or what the Kingdom of God is for mankind.

You still think this person is damned for all eternity?

What you are asserting is that it is impossible for God to save someone through grace. Doesn't compute.

---

I do, in fact, believe God saves everyone (who will be saved) by grace, and grace alone. However: Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith.

You have left out the faith part.

But don't you believe grace is irresistible? So faith I assume would be irresistible also.

Tell me your definition of faith, I know St. Paul's definition.

If you believe in irresistible grace and unconditional election, where does faith fit in? Would that be considered a work?

And I am not trying to be snarky. I just do not understand it.

Faith is a gift from God, not a work.

Preach.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Hebrews 12:2
…looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Agreed. Here is how I think scripture best explains faith:

Hebrews 11:1-3

11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible.

ETA: I am not arguing where salvation comes from, because we know it comes from God. I am agreeing with the Catholic Church that those who cannot know and hear the good news are still able to enter heaven through grace.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Truly one of the most mind-boggling, gross aspects of Christian theology.

---

Please Don't lump 1 billion Catholics in that category. We believe that only God knows the heart and there is salvation for those who have never heard the good news.

---

How could a religious Jew claim to have not heard the gospel? They know exactly who Jesus is yet deny Him.

---

What if they are of the elect? And you and they don't know it?

---

I don't really understand your question. I was asking whether or not Christians say "Happy ____" to other religions. You wouldn't say these things to another Christian (a saved believer).

---

I have before. I just find it curious that the "elect" seem to be concentrated in Christian countries. I would think a loving God would have elected more in non Christian countries.
And since in your theology only God knows who the elect are, how do you know some of the Jews are not of the elect? And I have seen Jews exhibit fruits of the Spirit. And professing Christians who don't. My rich office manager close friend who stole over a million bucks from me was all into talking with me about her new Christian walk.

---

You tell other Christians "Happy Ramadan"' or "Happy Passover"? I have to admit, that's really strange…

---

I am strange. Seriously it usually is just a deal in light hearted way. I just do not see the big deal. But I am the opposite of legalistic.

---

At least it is consistent. If you believe all will be reconciled to God in the end, then sure, let everyone live as they please - it is happy indeed.

---

You do the exact same thing

It's all predestined anyway, so let everyone live as they please. It's happy indeed

Captain Pablo said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Truly one of the most mind-boggling, gross aspects of Christian theology.

---

Please Don't lump 1 billion Catholics in that category. We believe that only God knows the heart and there is salvation for those who have never heard the good news.

---

How could a religious Jew claim to have not heard the gospel? They know exactly who Jesus is yet deny Him.

---

What if they are of the elect? And you and they don't know it?

---

I don't really understand your question. I was asking whether or not Christians say "Happy ____" to other religions. You wouldn't say these things to another Christian (a saved believer).

---

I have before. I just find it curious that the "elect" seem to be concentrated in Christian countries. I would think a loving God would have elected more in non Christian countries.
And since in your theology only God knows who the elect are, how do you know some of the Jews are not of the elect? And I have seen Jews exhibit fruits of the Spirit. And professing Christians who don't. My rich office manager close friend who stole over a million bucks from me was all into talking with me about her new Christian walk.

---

You tell other Christians "Happy Ramadan"' or "Happy Passover"? I have to admit, that's really strange…

---

I am strange. Seriously it usually is just a deal in light hearted way. I just do not see the big deal. But I am the opposite of legalistic.

---

At least it is consistent. If you believe all will be reconciled to God in the end, then sure, let everyone live as they please - it is happy indeed.

---

You do the exact same thing

It's all predestined anyway, so let everyone live as they please. It's happy indeed

---

Exactly. If everybody's fate is pre determined, what difference does anything we do make?

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Preach.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Hebrews 12:2
…looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

---

I agree with you. I do not understand if grace is irresistible, do we have faith? Or is it irrestible also?

They go hand in hand. God gives us grace when he forgives us, and then he gives us faith.

Trying to understand predestination and whether all can be saved, I think we just don't know. But we've been commanded to live for Christ and preach the Gospel. That's certainly something all of us Christians can agree on.

To my understanding, predestination is God's plan of salvation (Aquinas). There is one, it is not a crap shoot.

Predestination does not negate our free will. That is why Jesus said, not my will but yours be done- not all will choose God.

That said, knowledge of God is a gift not all will ask so that their choice to give their will is indeed free. I believe that God knows each of ours hearts to that level and will judge accordingly.

Given what God has gifted to me and my shortcomings- I am thankful that God is above all- merciful.

PabloSerna said:

---

To my understanding, predestination is God's plan of salvation (Aquinas). There is one, it is not a crap shoot.

Predestination does not negate our free will. That is why Jesus said, not my will but yours be done- not all will choose God.

That said, knowledge of God is a gift not all will ask so that their choice to give their will is indeed free. I believe that God knows each of ours hearts to that level and will judge accordingly.

Given what God has gifted to me and my shortcomings- I am thankful that God is above all- merciful.

---

Agree.

PabloSerna said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Well now let's think this through.

1. They cannot hear the good news. Impossible. They have what is termed "invincible ignorance" - worth looking up.

2. God sees this and blesses them with the grace to live a good life within their own environment and way of life. Important that God acts to send them grace.

3. They live what could be called a good and fruitful life, helping others, loving their family and friends (this is the grace part).

4. They die, never knowing who Jesus was or what the Kingdom of God is for mankind.

You still think this person is damned for all eternity?

What you are asserting is that it is impossible for God to save someone through grace. Doesn't compute.

---

Where in scripture does it say this or even refer to this type of concept?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."
John 14:6-7 KJV

And then in Acts, Jesus famously tells the apostles

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Juda, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
Acts 1:8 KJV

This is the Great Commission - our call as Christians to witness to the world and bring the good news.

For the Pygmy islander example, the answer is God reveals his law through nature (this is why people died between Adam and Moses, see Romans 4-5) - Romans 1-3

There are no innocent natives, anywhere. Every human being already knows enough about God through general revelation (creation and conscience) to be held accountable. No one is truly ignorant of God; everyone suppresses that truth and rebels against the God they do know. Therefore:

People are not condemned for failing to believe in a Jesus they've never heard of. They are condemned for rejecting the God the Father whom general revelation has plainly shown them (Romans 1:18-20).

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory (Romans 3:23); the whole world stands guilty before God, even the so called innocent Pygmy islander.

But to your hypothetical, yes, God could hypothetically sovereignly save someone without ordinary means but I see no Scripture which gives that optimism or rose colored view of humanity. The Bible's clear command is to preach the gospel to every creature precisely because people need Christ. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:14-17).

Quote:

---

For the Pygmy islander example, the answer is God reveals his law through nature (this is why people died between Adam and Moses, see Romans 4-5) - Romans 1-3

There are no innocent natives, anywhere. Every human being already knows enough about God through general revelation (creation and conscience) to be held accountable. No one is truly ignorant of God; everyone suppresses that truth and rebels against the God they do know. Therefore:

People are not condemned for failing to believe in a Jesus they've never heard of. They are condemned for rejecting the God the Father whom general revelation has plainly shown them (Romans 1:18-20).

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory (Romans 3:23); the whole world stands guilty before God, even the so called innocent Pygmy islander.

---

We agree on all this, but you're making the point against yourself. As you say, every human being knows God through general revelation enough to be held accountable, and no one is truly ignorant. Those who reject the goodness of God in that context are definitely culpable. However, by that exact same logic those that do not reject God, more specifically those that follow God, in that context are welcomed. If God has given them enough revelation to reject Him, then He has also given them enough revelation to follow him. You cannot have one without the other, unless you think God is a merciless tyrant.

Your last sentence is by no means a proof or even an argument against the salvation of the Pygmy islander. That sentence applies to the Elect as much as anyone else. Everyone is a sinner, and a merciless God would judge all of us guilty. However, we don't worship a merciless God. God forgives those that follow him with all their heart, body, and soul. The Pygmy islander certainly doesn't look like a Christian when they are following God, but they are limited by their lack of revelation. They will look very different from the Pygmy islanders that don't follow God, though. I say it would be very easy to tell the diffference for anyone who follows God, much less God Himself.

Respectfully, where is the scriptural evidence for all of your contentions? I tried to ground my argument in scripture. What you said is nice, but where's the proof?

If you're looking for a lot of proof texting, then I'm the wrong person for that. However, I can discuss the Scripture in regards to these things. First, the focus of Scripture is the promise to Abraham. The entire Bible follows that line and that promise from Abraham to the patriarchs to Moses and the Hebrews down to Christ and Christians. So it is not a surprise that we don't have anything in the Bible about God's revelations to the Pygmy Islanders. However, looking carefully we see plenty of references to God's work outside of his promise to Abraham.

We know of King Melchizedek and that he worships the true God, but the only account of him is when he interacts with Abraham (Genesis 14). There is an entire story there that is not in our Scripture. We see that Israel was not allowed to conquer Edom during the Exodus, because God had made a covenant with Edom (Deut 23). That covenant is not found anywhere in Scripture except as a tangential reference. Balaam is named in Scripture as prophet of God, but all we know about him is his interaction with the Hebrews during the Exodus (Numbers 22-24). During Elijah's time, he performed miracles for a widow in Sidon and Naaman the Syrian, neither of which were Hebrews (1 Kings and Luke 4). We see God directly inflict King Nebuchadnezzar with madness, and we only know this because Hebrews were living in his kingdom at the time (Dan 4). This all shows that God has always been very active in the world outside of the Scripture narrative, because we can see these other stories of God's work weaving in and out of the Abraham promise story.

There is a lot more direct stuff in the NT. Jesus literally says that he has sheep that are not of this flock as he speaks to the Hebrews, but he will bring them all together to be one under him (John 10:16). Paul points at a statue of an unknown god in Athens and immediately says that the Greeks were worshipping the True God without knowing it. (Acts 17:23) Paul also talks about in Romans how gentiles without the Law follow the Law's principles anyway (Romans 2:14-15). How could they follows the principles with God's law without God's revelation?

The most ironic to me is when Christians literally say that you have to call Jesus as Lord to be saved, but Jesus says that it is not those who call him Lord that are saved. Instead it is those that do the will of the Father that are saved. And Paul literally says that Gentiles follow the Law (which is Hebrew speak for doing the will of God) even when they don't have a law to follow.

TLDR: God has been working through all peoples at all times, but the Bible only documents the narrative of His promise to Abraham which culminates in Christ. Jesus says that he has followers that are unknown to his disciples. Paul says that some Gentiles follow God's will even without full revelation, and Jesus says that those that follow God's will are saved.

BenFiasco14 said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Well now let's think this through.

1. They cannot hear the good news. Impossible. They have what is termed "invincible ignorance" - worth looking up.

2. God sees this and blesses them with the grace to live a good life within their own environment and way of life. Important that God acts to send them grace.

3. They live what could be called a good and fruitful life, helping others, loving their family and friends (this is the grace part).

4. They die, never knowing who Jesus was or what the Kingdom of God is for mankind.

You still think this person is damned for all eternity?

What you are asserting is that it is impossible for God to save someone through grace. Doesn't compute.

---

Where in scripture does it say this or even refer to this type of concept?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."
John 14:6-7 KJV

And then in Acts, Jesus famously tells the apostles

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Juda, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
Acts 1:8 KJV

This is the Great Commission - our call as Christians to witness to the world and bring the good news.

For the Pygmy islander example, the answer is God reveals his law through nature (this is why people died between Adam and Moses, see Romans 4-5) - Romans 1-3

There are no innocent natives, anywhere. Every human being already knows enough about God through general revelation (creation and conscience) to be held accountable. No one is truly ignorant of God; everyone suppresses that truth and rebels against the God they do know. Therefore:

People are not condemned for failing to believe in a Jesus they've never heard of. They are condemned for rejecting the God the Father whom general revelation has plainly shown them (Romans 1:18-20).

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory (Romans 3:23); the whole world stands guilty before God, even the so called innocent Pygmy islander.

But to your hypothetical, yes, God could hypothetically sovereignly save someone without ordinary means but I see no Scripture which gives that optimism or rose colored view of humanity. The Bible's clear command is to preach the gospel to every creature precisely because people need Christ. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:14-17).

---

*Hand clap*

BenFiasco14 said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

I can agree with you that salvation comes from Christ, however, what about those through no fault of their own, cannot make such choices? Are they damned to eternal hell? Cannot they seek God with a sincere heart and through God's grace live a good life and achieve eternal salvation?

---

No, they cannot. Good life does not equal salvation.

---

Well now let's think this through.

1. They cannot hear the good news. Impossible. They have what is termed "invincible ignorance" - worth looking up.

2. God sees this and blesses them with the grace to live a good life within their own environment and way of life. Important that God acts to send them grace.

3. They live what could be called a good and fruitful life, helping others, loving their family and friends (this is the grace part).

4. They die, never knowing who Jesus was or what the Kingdom of God is for mankind.

You still think this person is damned for all eternity?

What you are asserting is that it is impossible for God to save someone through grace. Doesn't compute.

---

Where in scripture does it say this or even refer to this type of concept?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."
John 14:6-7 KJV

And then in Acts, Jesus famously tells the apostles

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Juda, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
Acts 1:8 KJV

This is the Great Commission - our call as Christians to witness to the world and bring the good news.

For the Pygmy islander example, the answer is God reveals his law through nature (this is why people died between Adam and Moses, see Romans 4-5) - Romans 1-3

There are no innocent natives, anywhere. Every human being already knows enough about God through general revelation (creation and conscience) to be held accountable. No one is truly ignorant of God; everyone suppresses that truth and rebels against the God they do know. Therefore:

People are not condemned for failing to believe in a Jesus they've never heard of. They are condemned for rejecting the God the Father whom general revelation has plainly shown them (Romans 1:18-20).

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory (Romans 3:23); the whole world stands guilty before God, even the so called innocent Pygmy islander.

But to your hypothetical, yes, God could hypothetically sovereignly save someone without ordinary means but I see no Scripture which gives that optimism or rose colored view of humanity. The Bible's clear command is to preach the gospel to every creature precisely because people need Christ. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:14-17).

---

Very well stated my friend. He is risen!

ramblin_ag02 said:

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If you're looking for a lot of proof texting, then I'm the wrong person for that. However, I can discuss the Scripture in regards to these things. First, the focus of Scripture is the promise to Abraham. The entire Bible follows that line and that promise from Abraham to the patriarchs to Moses and the Hebrews down to Christ and Christians. So it is not a surprise that we don't have anything in the Bible about God's revelations to the Pygmy Islanders. However, looking carefully we see plenty of references to God's work outside of his promise to Abraham.

We know of King Melchizedek and that he worships the true God, but the only account of him is when he interacts with Abraham (Genesis 14). There is an entire story there that is not in our Scripture. We see that Israel was not allowed to conquer Edom during the Exodus, because God had made a covenant with Edom (Deut 23). That covenant is not found anywhere in Scripture except as a tangential reference. Balaam is named in Scripture as prophet of God, but all we know about him is his interaction with the Hebrews during the Exodus (Numbers 22-24). During Elijah's time, he performed miracles for a widow in Sidon and Naaman the Syrian, neither of which were Hebrews (1 Kings and Luke 4). We see God directly inflict King Nebuchadnezzar with madness, and we only know this because Hebrews were living in his kingdom at the time (Dan 4). This all shows that God has always been very active in the world outside of the Scripture narrative, because we can see these other stories of God's work weaving in and out of the Abraham promise story.

There is a lot more direct stuff in the NT. Jesus literally says that he has sheep that are not of this flock as he speaks to the Hebrews, but he will bring them all together to be one under him (John 10:16). Paul points at a statue of an unknown god in Athens and immediately says that the Greeks were worshipping the True God without knowing it. (Acts 17:23) Paul also talks about in Romans how gentiles without the Law follow the Law's principles anyway (Romans 2:14-15). How could they follows the principles with God's law without God's revelation?

The most ironic to me is when Christians literally say that you have to call Jesus as Lord to be saved, but Jesus says that it is not those who call him Lord that are saved. Instead it is those that do the will of the Father that are saved. And Paul literally says that Gentiles follow the Law (which is Hebrew speak for doing the will of God) even when they don't have a law to follow.

TLDR: God has been working through all peoples at all times, but the Bible only documents the narrative of His promise to Abraham which culminates in Christ. Jesus says that he has followers that are unknown to his disciples. Paul says that some Gentiles follow God's will even without full revelation, and Jesus says that those that follow God's will are saved.

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With respect to the Old Testament references and events not explicitly laid out in the Bible, you are of course correct, but I reject the inference that this means there are "gaps" in the Bublical narrative that are relevant to us, but not included. I believe the Bible is God's divine inspiration and words put on the page. If there was something in what you referenced, beyond what you cited, that was relevant for our Christian lives, it would be there.

Mechelzidek is mentioned I think specifically in Genesis so that all the way down the line when Jesus came around, they were able to point to Melvhezidek to establish Jesus' supreme priesthood, even over Abraham (bc Abraham paid tithes to Mechelzedik). Therefore, his story is relevant to us only in that context. Anything else that went on with him certainly did happen but if it isn't in Scripture, it's nothing more than secondary evidence which might be nice or helpful but not authoritative.

I would respectfully push back against your interpretation of the NT you cited. I think John 10:16 is more about how there will be people saved that are not literally with Jesus right there, say, us, non Jews. Gentiles.

And in Acts perhaps I am misremembering but your interpretation seems to imply Paul told them they were actually worshipping God all along and they said "oh, you're right". No, it didn't go that way at all and if I remember correctly, it grieves Paul deeply that these pagans were so close to the truth, yet still fell short. That's why Paul also debated the Epicureans in Athens and quoted* Epicurean philosophers not as an endorsement of Epicureanism, but merely to turn it on its head and point to Christ.

As for Romans 2:14-15, to me the point isn't whether God is or isn't "revealed", the point Paul makes in Romans is that every human being has some awareness of God but the vast majority rebel against Him and his revelation; that's just human nature - to run from God.

Happy Easter, He is risen!

Happy Easter everyone! He is risen indeed!

Happy Easter!

Like I said, I'm not one for proof texting. I can make a good case from Scripture, but it's not proof. I've seen too many people argue by throwing Scripture at each other and still walking away mad to think that approach is worth anything. To me, the proof is that I worship the merciful, just, and above all, loving God. The God that wants all men to be saved. It does not compute that God can love all men, be merciful and just to all men, but only provides a path to salvation for a select few. And even now the number of people that have been exposed to the Gospel is a select few of all the people that have ever lived. Condemning all the rest of humanity without any hope or path to salvation is neither merciful nor loving, and you have to really stretch to call it just