txags92 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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ttu_85 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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e=mc2 said:

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It's not far right. It's common sense. **** the globalists. **** the liberals. And **** the Democrats.

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I'm further to the right than everyone here, so yes they are far right. You should actually go look up what these people believe or want.

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are you more of a catholic king or american franco 2.0 kinda guy?

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So are you a socialist or commie 3.0 kind of guy?

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i'm a concerned left-moderate based on what i see on far left twitter, if there were any actual socialists or communists who posted here half the forum would be permabanned or dead from aneurysms

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So you are a communist that wants to take away all private property rights and let the state control everything?

That is what it looks like when you lump everybody left of center into the most extreme position held by anybody on the left. Which is what folks love to do with the right in Europe.

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nah i get that there's conservatives in Europe who just want sensible immigration policies, and then there's people like nanomachines who want, uh, quite a bit more than that, and all manner in between

TexAgs91 said:

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The far-left (yes, I said it) wants open borders correct? Is that what the debate is about?

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You misspelled 'concerned moderates'

Old McDonald said:

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yokel is probably my favorite poster, doubt he'd do it but I'd love to hear h describe his changing politics over the last five years. guy was probably the furthest left poster here at one point.

my favorite exchange on this site ever was some conservative guy kamikaze-ing his years-old account to graphically describe an elaborate torture fantasy he had about yokel, i can only aspire to getting someone that riled up

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I'm sorry to have missed that. For all the commie/Marxist accusations thrown at folks not toeing the line there was something hilariously refreshing about a poster leaning into it who wasn't trolling and couldn't be attacked on greed.

Old McDonald said:

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yokel is probably my favorite poster, doubt he'd do it but I'd love to hear h describe his changing politics over the last five years. guy was probably the furthest left poster here at one point.

my favorite exchange on this site ever was some conservative guy kamikaze-ing his years-old account to graphically describe an elaborate torture fantasy he had about yokel, i can only aspire to getting someone that riled up

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Okay I am glad I am not the only one who noticed his changes politically. I thought I was losing my mind and just misremembering an older poster. So it's the same guy? Huh, interesting. I mean I have seen a lot of people change over the past 5 years so it's not unheard of but you are right, he used to be way to the left and now he's quite right wing.

Faustus said:

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Old McDonald said:

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yokel is probably my favorite poster, doubt he'd do it but I'd love to hear h describe his changing politics over the last five years. guy was probably the furthest left poster here at one point.

my favorite exchange on this site ever was some conservative guy kamikaze-ing his years-old account to graphically describe an elaborate torture fantasy he had about yokel, i can only aspire to getting someone that riled up

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I'm sorry to have missed that. For all the commie/Marxist accusations thrown at folks not toeing the line there was something hilariously refreshing about a poster leaning into it who wasn't trolling and couldn't be attacked on greed.

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I got KeithDB to kamikazi his account years ago for something similar. Toed the line super hard and was posting a lot of studies and data and then he went on an angry rant with death threats and got himself permabanned. No I didn't report him but many other people did (I don't report anyone here).

TexAgs91 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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What they're getting at is trying to link white supremacists with the right.

White supremacy and fascists have nothing to do with the right.

Conservatives have LED the push for equal rights. Conservatives want small government.

Far right would mean an even bigger push for equal rights and even smaller government. This has nothing to do with white supremacy or fascism.

Don't let the left define who we are.

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It's kinda funny watching people here try and fail to understand these Euro far right parties.

You all have no idea what is brewing beneath the surface in Europe. It sure as hell ain't normal conservatism.

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Well spill it. Enlighten us.

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The young people in Europe are basically all supporting fascism again. The left pushed too hard once again and now the reactionary response is coming. Germany for example is constantly arresting people for merely singing the song "Auslander Raus" or "Foreigners Out, Germany for Germans" but that has just caused it to explode in popularity even more such that even Sieg Heil with the Roman Salute has begun to spread again.

I have read similar things about France.

What did the left expect when they decided to destroy the nations through immigration, LGBTQ, and climate change policies all of which are extremely anti-local population.

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I'm trying to figure out how turning the things the right wants (limited government, equal rights, follow the law, protect our sovereignty) up to 11 equals fascism.

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The media in Europe has used fascism and nationalism interchangeably for decades, and always allow it to be implied that the "far right" is defined by a secret love of and desire to return to policies people associate with Hitler and Mussolini. An EXTREMELY common European sentiment, much moreso than over here, is that conservatives/right wing parties are always plotting to dispose of the disguise and launch into full blown fascist totalitarianism once they gain power.

Now all that being said, hypernationalism is on the rise in Europe as a direct response to the threats their civilization are currently experiencing. And that does create the POTENTIAL for something more insidious and closer to 20th century fascism to emerge. And the European left will have nobody to blame but themselves when it happens. When you push a civilization to the brink you get overcorrection and desperation.

techno-ag said:

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schmellba99 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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These have undoubtedly been the wildest 72 hours in French politics in my lifetime. Pretty incredible stuff.

A 🧵

— Arnaud Bertrand (@RnaudBertrand) June 13, 2024

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1801114239572328663.html?utm_campaign=topunroll

Basically almost every political party on both the right and the left has imploded from betrayals and people switching sides.

I'm sure the French will start rioting soon too.

Europe is panicking at the rise of far right extreme anti-immigration parties.

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There is nothng far right or extreme about wanting immigration controlled and not wanting to lose your culture.

The fact that people try to make that some type of issue akin to being a nazi or whatever is stupid

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The Nazis were leftists, it should be pointed out. Far left, so socialistic they were almost communists were it not for some strong economic variances with the Bolsheviks.

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American definitions of left and right aren't very useful descriptors when it comes to fascists/communists.

The Nazis were, most fundamentally, a hypernationalist party that argued Germans/aryans were socially AND racially superior to everyone else. And because nationalism has always been a fundamental feature of what Europeans call "the right", fascism by the definitions used in Europe always falls on the far right of the political spectrum.

Communism detested nationalism, the idea of pride in one's nation was anathema to the global revolution of the working class Marx envisioned. National borders and sovereignty were a hindrance to the goals of socialism/Marxism. This is why it falls on the far left of the political spectrum in the eyes of Europeans. And it's why it is so ironic that Stalin used old school Russian empire nationalism to motivate his people to win the war. For all the communist bluster and ideology, it was hypernationalism that won the war.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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What they're getting at is trying to link white supremacists with the right.

White supremacy and fascists have nothing to do with the right.

Conservatives have LED the push for equal rights. Conservatives want small government.

Far right would mean an even bigger push for equal rights and even smaller government. This has nothing to do with white supremacy or fascism.

Don't let the left define who we are.

---

It's kinda funny watching people here try and fail to understand these Euro far right parties.

You all have no idea what is brewing beneath the surface in Europe. It sure as hell ain't normal conservatism.

---

Well spill it. Enlighten us.

---

The young people in Europe are basically all supporting fascism again. The left pushed too hard once again and now the reactionary response is coming. Germany for example is constantly arresting people for merely singing the song "Auslander Raus" or "Foreigners Out, Germany for Germans" but that has just caused it to explode in popularity even more such that even Sieg Heil with the Roman Salute has begun to spread again.

I have read similar things about France.

What did the left expect when they decided to destroy the nations through immigration, LGBTQ, and climate change policies all of which are extremely anti-local population.

---

I'm trying to figure out how turning the things the right wants (limited government, equal rights, follow the law, protect our sovereignty) up to 11 equals fascism.

---

The media in Europe has used fascism and nationalism interchangeably for decades, and always allow it to be implied that the "far right" is defined by a secret love of and desire to return to policies people associate with Hitler and Mussolini. An EXTREMELY common European sentiment, much moreso than over here, is that conservatives/right wing parties are always plotting to dispose of the disguise and launch into full blown fascist totalitarianism once they gain power.

Now all that being said, hypernationalism is on the rise in Europe as a direct response to the threats their civilization are currently experiencing. And that does create the POTENTIAL for something more insidious and closer to 20th century fascism to emerge. And the European left will have nobody to blame but themselves when it happens. When you push a civilization to the brink you get overcorrection and desperation.

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When everything is fascism, nothing is fascism. Overusing a label for something makes it lose its power. The left is doing the same thing over here with racism.

txags92 said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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What they're getting at is trying to link white supremacists with the right.

White supremacy and fascists have nothing to do with the right.

Conservatives have LED the push for equal rights. Conservatives want small government.

Far right would mean an even bigger push for equal rights and even smaller government. This has nothing to do with white supremacy or fascism.

Don't let the left define who we are.

---

It's kinda funny watching people here try and fail to understand these Euro far right parties.

You all have no idea what is brewing beneath the surface in Europe. It sure as hell ain't normal conservatism.

---

Well spill it. Enlighten us.

---

The young people in Europe are basically all supporting fascism again. The left pushed too hard once again and now the reactionary response is coming. Germany for example is constantly arresting people for merely singing the song "Auslander Raus" or "Foreigners Out, Germany for Germans" but that has just caused it to explode in popularity even more such that even Sieg Heil with the Roman Salute has begun to spread again.

I have read similar things about France.

What did the left expect when they decided to destroy the nations through immigration, LGBTQ, and climate change policies all of which are extremely anti-local population.

---

I'm trying to figure out how turning the things the right wants (limited government, equal rights, follow the law, protect our sovereignty) up to 11 equals fascism.

---

The media in Europe has used fascism and nationalism interchangeably for decades, and always allow it to be implied that the "far right" is defined by a secret love of and desire to return to policies people associate with Hitler and Mussolini. An EXTREMELY common European sentiment, much moreso than over here, is that conservatives/right wing parties are always plotting to dispose of the disguise and launch into full blown fascist totalitarianism once they gain power.

Now all that being said, hypernationalism is on the rise in Europe as a direct response to the threats their civilization are currently experiencing. And that does create the POTENTIAL for something more insidious and closer to 20th century fascism to emerge. And the European left will have nobody to blame but themselves when it happens. When you push a civilization to the brink you get overcorrection and desperation.

---

When everything is fascism, nothing is fascism. Overusing a label for something makes it lose its power. The left is doing the same thing over here with racism.

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Did and does. The right struck back, understandably if belatedly, with the pretty funny commie pedo label.

And now it's just both sides muttering talismanic catchphrases at each other. Maybe it always was.

TexAgs91 said:

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They're losing their countries and their culture. It's a completely understandable response to their Marxist leader's actions.

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Understandable but the end result could be really, really bad. It was understandable that Germans were upset about Versailles too.

samurai_science said:

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The Third Reich was not facist, they where National Socialist. Hitler was a part of the Commuist party in 1918, is this beyond dispute. Italy was the facists

The Third Reich was a leftist policical party, not sure why this is so hard to see.

No Personal Property Rights
Universal "Free" Health Care
"Free" Public Government Run Education
Gun Registration and Confiscation
Government Managed Economies
Government Promised Equality For All (excpet the current "bad evil people")
Wage Controls
Limited or No Free Speech
Prisons for persons of a different political party
It Takes a Village
Death Camps
Restricted Travel

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Horseshoe theory

And again, when Europeans talk about the right and left their brains are generally conjuring up different images than yours is. The far right has been defined most fundamentally to them for the last 150 years by nationalism to ever increasing degrees the further to the right you get. Nazi fascism was the most hypernationlist form the continent has yet seen and so it gets pegged on the far end as the most extreme example of far right wing politics. Communism is on the other end because it fundamentally wishes to get rid of nationalism entirely. And for ANY system to function on either extreme end of the spectrum there has to be a substantial component of totalitarianism by definition. You can only go so far in either direction without state force. There is no such thing as an "extreme" right wing (or left wing) state that doesn't limit free speech, rights, etc. to a significant degree.

Is there any way we can convince them that fascism and communism are both leftist things. Maybe explain it to them better?

It doesn't seem fair that Europe gets the final say just because of they produced most of the famous ones.

Faustus said:

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Is there any way we can convince them that fascism and communism are both leftist things. Maybe explain it to them better?

It doesn't seem fair that Europe gets to define these things.

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Europeans, including the right wing parties and even the hypernationalist parties, would essentially all be regarded as liberal in many ways by American conservatives. That's because there's a much wider consensus in Europe on social issues that are still heated debates here. European support for gay marriage, for example, is over 90% by some polls. The same holds true for most social topics, Europeans are much more socially liberal to the point where it's essentially a bipartisan consensus on many issues. The exception is of course immigration, but even then more Europeans than Americans currently supported soft immigration policies. There is also a much stronger consensus on social programs. Effectively nobody in Europe argues against social welfare programs in principle, whereas that's a common sentiment here (though it is a non starter when running for office to be sure).

So the answer to your question is no because their perspective and frame of reference is fundamentally different. All Europeans are liberals relative to the American right. Posters on this board would have nobody to vote for if they became a citizen of any Western European or Nordic nation, and most Eastern European nations as well. The right wing party that may come to power in these upcoming French elections is more economically left wing than our Democratic Party. The GOP is FAR to the right of most mainstream right wing parties in Europe and look how it's thought of here. Central aspects of the Republican Party platform are literally illegal to formally endorse in some European countries.

That was pretty tongue in cheek. I apologize, and appreciate the response to the extent you weren't just being droll with the on point factual recitations.

Actually I'd appreciate that too.

Anyone who considers fascism (or 'national socialism') to have been right wing is an intellectual featherweight not worth speaking/engaging with.

Nationalism is human nature. You will never break it.

Waffledynamics said:

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Is it just me, or did most of the thread linked in the OP discuss the turmoil on the right, while the left seems to have things pretty well under control over there?

Sounds like the leftist politicians are about to win again by being more organized.

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This was exactly my take. The left was certain weeks ago that the EU elections would be a repudiation of their politics and I bet behind the scenes they already discussed joining after Macron called snap elections. And many on the supposed right refuse to ally with Le Pen.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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They're losing their countries and their culture. It's a completely understandable response to their Marxist leader's actions.

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Understandable but the end result could be really, really bad. It was understandable that Germans were upset about Versailles too.

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Better the communists and foreign get it than the locals. Given the choice between two equally bad options, which do you choose, your people or not your people?

Infection_Ag11 said:

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samurai_science said:

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The Third Reich was not facist, they where National Socialist. Hitler was a part of the Commuist party in 1918, is this beyond dispute. Italy was the facists

The Third Reich was a leftist policical party, not sure why this is so hard to see.

No Personal Property Rights
Universal "Free" Health Care
"Free" Public Government Run Education
Gun Registration and Confiscation
Government Managed Economies
Government Promised Equality For All (excpet the current "bad evil people")
Wage Controls
Limited or No Free Speech
Prisons for persons of a different political party
It Takes a Village
Death Camps
Restricted Travel

---

Horseshoe theory

And again, when Europeans talk about the right and left their brains are generally conjuring up different images than yours is. The far right has been defined most fundamentally to them for the last 150 years by nationalism to ever increasing degrees the further to the right you get. Nazi fascism was the most hypernationlist form the continent has yet seen and so it gets pegged on the far end as the most extreme example of far right wing politics. Communism is on the other end because it fundamentally wishes to get rid of nationalism entirely. And for ANY system to function on either extreme end of the spectrum there has to be a substantial component of totalitarianism by definition. You can only go so far in either direction without state force. There is no such thing as an "extreme" right wing (or left wing) state that doesn't limit free speech, rights, etc. to a significant degree.

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You are simply deciding that the only thing that matters in Right/Left is Nationalism vs Globalism but that isn't the case in Europe as you claim. It is moreso than in the US but it certainly isn't the ballgame. Other tenets of socialism and communism are deeply embedded in the Left in Europe and free market capitalism is embedded in the Right in Europe.

The thing is though if you take away the fig leaf of Nationalism then you have to accept that the Nazis were Leftists. The Left has propagandized the Nazis for my entire lifetime as "Far Right" so they can try to call everyone who has any conservative tendencies Nazis or on the path towards Nazism without making an intellectual argument as to just how ludicrous that is.

I've gotten to the point where I don't even try to make Nazi comparisons because people so few can tell fact from fiction and it has been so propagandized. It's better to talk about the Spanish Civil War. Or comparing Chavez/Castro vs Pinochet. Or more recently to look at Milei and Bukele who are the best current examples of what a true Right Wing government wants to do. Problem is if you do that it makes it really hard to defend being anywhere on the Left.

notex said:

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Anyone who considers fascism (or 'national socialism') to have been right wing is an intellectual featherweight not worth speaking/engaging with.

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Just like the idiots that repeat the muh party switch nonsense.

techno-ag said:

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schmellba99 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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These have undoubtedly been the wildest 72 hours in French politics in my lifetime. Pretty incredible stuff.

A 🧵

— Arnaud Bertrand (@RnaudBertrand) June 13, 2024

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1801114239572328663.html?utm_campaign=topunroll

Basically almost every political party on both the right and the left has imploded from betrayals and people switching sides.

I'm sure the French will start rioting soon too.

Europe is panicking at the rise of far right extreme anti-immigration parties.

---

There is nothng far right or extreme about wanting immigration controlled and not wanting to lose your culture.

The fact that people try to make that some type of issue akin to being a nazi or whatever is stupid

---

The Nazis were leftists, it should be pointed out. Far left, so socialistic they were almost communists were it not for some strong economic variances with the Bolsheviks.

---

So, Chinese?

samurai_science said:

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The Third Reich was not facist, they where National Socialist. Hitler was a part of the Commuist party in 1918, is this beyond dispute. Italy was the facists

The Third Reich was a leftist policical party, not sure why this is so hard to see.

No Personal Property Rights
Universal "Free" Health Care
"Free" Public Government Run Education
Gun Registration and Confiscation
Government Managed Economies
Government Promised Equality For All (excpet the current "bad evil people")
Wage Controls
Limited or No Free Speech
Prisons for persons of a different political party
It Takes a Village
Death Camps
Restricted Travel

---

Refreshing to see this laid out...kudo's to you, Infection, and to some of the others below who accurately characterize this...

Infection_Ag11 said:

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TexAgs91 said:

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They're losing their countries and their culture. It's a completely understandable response to their Marxist leader's actions.

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Understandable but the end result could be really, really bad. It was understandable that Germans were upset about Versailles too.

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It's not just Germany. Other countries are in this same boat. They're losing their country and their cultures. Preserving that is not an unreasonable ask. If it progresses beyond that then that can be addressed.

Bird Poo said:

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techno-ag said:

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schmellba99 said:

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Nanomachines son said:

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These have undoubtedly been the wildest 72 hours in French politics in my lifetime. Pretty incredible stuff.

A 🧵

— Arnaud Bertrand (@RnaudBertrand) June 13, 2024

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1801114239572328663.html?utm_campaign=topunroll

Basically almost every political party on both the right and the left has imploded from betrayals and people switching sides.

I'm sure the French will start rioting soon too.

Europe is panicking at the rise of far right extreme anti-immigration parties.

---

There is nothng far right or extreme about wanting immigration controlled and not wanting to lose your culture.

The fact that people try to make that some type of issue akin to being a nazi or whatever is stupid

---

The Nazis were leftists, it should be pointed out. Far left, so socialistic they were almost communists were it not for some strong economic variances with the Bolsheviks.

---

So, Chinese?

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The Chinese are a curious case of allowing capitalism in order to benefit the state. They still put a thumb on the scales though. It will be interesting going forward.

techno-ag said:

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Bird Poo said:

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techno-ag said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

Nanomachines son said:

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These have undoubtedly been the wildest 72 hours in French politics in my lifetime. Pretty incredible stuff.

A 🧵

— Arnaud Bertrand (@RnaudBertrand) June 13, 2024

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1801114239572328663.html?utm_campaign=topunroll

Basically almost every political party on both the right and the left has imploded from betrayals and people switching sides.

I'm sure the French will start rioting soon too.

Europe is panicking at the rise of far right extreme anti-immigration parties.

---

There is nothng far right or extreme about wanting immigration controlled and not wanting to lose your culture.

The fact that people try to make that some type of issue akin to being a nazi or whatever is stupid

---

The Nazis were leftists, it should be pointed out. Far left, so socialistic they were almost communists were it not for some strong economic variances with the Bolsheviks.

---

So, Chinese?

---

The Chinese are a curious case of allowing capitalism in order to benefit the state. They still put a thumb on the scales though. It will be interesting going forward.

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The Chinese are interested in maintaining control. Yesterday pure communism was the most effective path. Today a little capitalism worked in is a net benefit. Tomorrow, who knows?