Teslag said:

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By the time he takes office I'm betting there's a ceasefire largely along current lines in Ukraine and by next summer there will be a peace deal in place with Ukraine joining NATO and formally ceding Crimea and other areas in the east to Russia.

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You know… this strikes me as quite plausible… I'm not sure I'd put $ on it, but here's a star and a salute!

Trump won't stop Ukraine aid. But it will probably come with conditions moving forward.

PanzerAggie06 said:

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Wabs said:

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Ukrainian people are probably happier than anyone. Maybe now they can stop dying in an endless war.

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Americans lecturing anyone about endless wars. That's rich. Sometimes our sense of self awareness is frighteningly out of touch. And to think the Ukrainians are going to be happy at the prospect of having to hand over vast swaths of their territory is another example of being frighteningly out of touch.

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I'm a veteran of two wars, so I feel I can "lecture" on how horrific endless wars are. I am NOT "pro Russia". I want the killing to stop and both sides need to come to the table to figure out a damn solution.

Wabs said:

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PanzerAggie06 said:

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Wabs said:

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Ukrainian people are probably happier than anyone. Maybe now they can stop dying in an endless war.

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Americans lecturing anyone about endless wars. That's rich. Sometimes our sense of self awareness is frighteningly out of touch. And to think the Ukrainians are going to be happy at the prospect of having to hand over vast swaths of their territory is another example of being frighteningly out of touch.

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I'm a veteran of two wars, so I feel I can "lecture" on how horrific endless wars are. I am NOT "pro Russia". I want the killing to stop and both sides need to come to the table to figure out a damn solution.

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Why?

Why does it matter if the killing stops?

Wabs said:

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PanzerAggie06 said:

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Wabs said:

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Ukrainian people are probably happier than anyone. Maybe now they can stop dying in an endless war.

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Americans lecturing anyone about endless wars. That's rich. Sometimes our sense of self awareness is frighteningly out of touch. And to think the Ukrainians are going to be happy at the prospect of having to hand over vast swaths of their territory is another example of being frighteningly out of touch.

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I'm a veteran of two wars, so I feel I can "lecture" on how horrific endless wars are. I am NOT "pro Russia". I want the killing to stop and both sides need to come to the table to figure out a damn solution.

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Well another thing is its also so wasteful of both. These are people that some hard work could forge better connections with. This whole thing has been such a tragedy that we didn't use our leverage but preferred to profiteer. Our insistence on persisting on a semi-cold war tone from the top and press this century despite opportunities to revise it, has not been helpful or even a good act.

Teslag said:

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By the time he takes office I'm betting there's a ceasefire largely along current lines in Ukraine and by next summer there will be a peace deal in place with Ukraine joining NATO and formally ceding Crimea and other areas in the east to Russia.

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Ukraine into NATO is an absolute red line that Russia will not accept.

MB19 said:

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Teslag said:

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By the time he takes office I'm betting there's a ceasefire largely along current lines in Ukraine and by next summer there will be a peace deal in place with Ukraine joining NATO and formally ceding Crimea and other areas in the east to Russia.

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Ukraine into NATO is an absolute red line that Russia will not accept.

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Well, look at it their way. Would we accept Mexico or Canada joining a Chinese military alliance?

Its a fact can work with if have firm but sensible rather than belligerent policy.

How about?...

"Eff Ukraine"
"Eff Putin"
"Eff Zelensky"

MB19 said:

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Teslag said:

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By the time he takes office I'm betting there's a ceasefire largely along current lines in Ukraine and by next summer there will be a peace deal in place with Ukraine joining NATO and formally ceding Crimea and other areas in the east to Russia.

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Ukraine into NATO is an absolute red line that Russia will not accept.

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What is Russia going to do about it?

Teslag said:

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MB19 said:

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Teslag said:

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By the time he takes office I'm betting there's a ceasefire largely along current lines in Ukraine and by next summer there will be a peace deal in place with Ukraine joining NATO and formally ceding Crimea and other areas in the east to Russia.

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Ukraine into NATO is an absolute red line that Russia will not accept.

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What is Russia going to do about it?

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You don't want to find out. What is this determination to make Russia an enemy which got us to this point in Feb 2022 rather than try working with them more.

Repeat -- its silly to expect us to tolerate a military alliance with China with a nation on our border. Why do so many think they should be okay with a military alliance with a belligerent (as we have insisted on being) on theirs? Especially when it was one of the more gentlemen understandings not to do so in the 90's?

The problem I see with all of this if Russia gets to keep everything they've won, what's to stop them from trying again in another 5-10 years? Unlike Yeltsin, Putin is a bully, and no one has been willing to punch him in the nose. It seems like the west had fairly decent relations with Yeltsin and when Putin first came into power.

General Jack D. Ripper said:

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I hope you understand what this means. You may have the biggest houses and nicest cars paid by the American taxpayer, but you'll never be able to enjoy them. Putin lets nothing go.

I'd say too bad, but instead: **** off.


If you take this as pro-Putin, then that's your problem. I'm just sick of paying for Zelensky's luxuries.

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Do you want to stop funding the Jews too?

Quote:

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You don't want to find out.

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It was a rhetorical question. We've already found out there's not a damn thing Russia can do about it.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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You don't want to find out.

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It was a rhetorical question. We've already found out there's not a damn thing Russia can do about it.

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No we haven't. They have refrained from greater extremes. They are certainly capable of them. Just as they were in 1991 but did not choose. Probably not least in part due to their genuinely changed disposition about such. All these bad traits of Russia we are seeing are old and familiar, but not communist. They can be dealt with by other than our continued disposition of belligerency which have tracked from after 9/11 when real opportunities were largely squelched by the Cheney wing wanting dominance.

Again, why the determination to make them an adversary? That in some not small way led to all this stuff with all the meddling well before 2014?

Its China that has more open designs of world challenge and intention. We seriously should be trying to mend relations with Russia. We managed to do it with the British Empire by the 20th C despite the worst of divides (two wars with them). Its just annoying the lack of vision about it all.

Russia made themselves an adversary by engaging in a pure and simple land grab. And we've seen what they can do.

It's nothing. All they have let is nukes and they aren't using one of those over Ukraine in NATO.

MouthBQ98 said:

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Trump is not isolationist. He just doesn't like fighting stupid pointless forever wars that don't need to be fought out of weakness and indecisiveness.

He's already said that hostilities will have to cease and serious negotiations take place to end the war in pragmatic terms. Ukraine will have to be willing to bargain territory and Russia will have to be serious or Trump might actually give Ukraine a flood of resources they can begin to win decisively with.

No more just feeding cash and men into a pointless waste. I hope he follows through and forces a real decisive end to it.

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This is how I see it going as well.

Fact is the war is at a point where it's a standstill for both sides, even with the North Koreans thrown in as fodder. Putin won't get Ukraine, and Zalensky won't get back what Putin has taken, but it will be over.

Plus, once it's over and done with, the American companies can swoop into Ukraine and get wealthy beyond belief with all the rebuilding that will be done.

I can see Ukraine looking amazing compared to how it was even before the invasion. As a plus, I think Ukraine will be let into NATO, and in the end, while Putin did take some land, he also helped Ukraine rebuild itself into something better and helped it get into NATO.

Fair enough for me,

Velvet Jones said:

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Man, lots of folks here painting with awfully broad brushes.

One person doesn't equate to everyone who posts here.

And lots of people here call protecting our sovereign nation from an actual invasion by savages who want to erase the USA "racism", and nary a peep.

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Teslag said:

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Russia made themselves an adversary by engaging in a pure and simple land grab. And we've seen what they can do.

It's nothing. All they have let is nukes and they aren't using one of those over Ukraine in NATO.

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Your leaving out the role we played in destabilizing the situation before the land grab, and then even somewhat encouraging it by mumble-jumble speak like "depends on the degree of incursion." We haven't used our great power to leverage a peaceful direction over there. Even interfered with some attempts of that.

Russia did the arch wrong of invading, but it is false to say it was without a mounting catalyst.

Invading alone doesn't negate all -- what about our invasion of Iraq? Things can have a spur, an underlying cause, where fault lies further back. The point is it is not all Russia's. State Dept has some of it.

What should be agreed is escalating steadily between us is foolish when China is the rival apparently intent on that threat.

Quote:

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what about our invasion of Iraq?

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The one where we invaded AFTER iraq invaded Kuwait unprovoked?

Patton knew.

General Jack D. Ripper said:

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I hope you understand what this means. You may have the biggest houses and nicest cars paid by the American taxpayer, but you'll never be able to enjoy them. Putin lets nothing go.

I'd say too bad, but instead: **** off.

If you take this as pro-Putin, then that's your problem. I'm just sick of paying for Zelensky's luxuries.

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One of the 2 ignorant policies that many struggled to vote for Trump.

It's one thing to talk like this on the campaign trail. It's another when national security threats and defense accords actually matter.

Nothing about anything you just said are in America's interests. Especially when the majority of the money you speak of stays in the USA and only helps our military. Just dumb.

Wabs said:

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Ukrainian people are probably happier than anyone. Maybe now they can stop dying in an endless war.

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No matter how much it may cost to help the Ukraine, it is far cheaper than if Russia regains their past Soviet glory.

In the last couple of years, Russia has shown the world how far down their military has gone. Russia could keep going for a while, but with less and less effectiveness.

Sending North Korean soldiers and the own very under-trained conscripts shows the world how far down they have gone.

The last thing we should want is to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

HTownAg98 said:

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The problem I see with all of this if Russia gets to keep everything they've won, what's to stop them from trying again in another 5-10 years? Unlike Yeltsin, Putin is a bully, and no one has been willing to punch him in the nose. It seems like the west had fairly decent relations with Yeltsin and when Putin first came into power.

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You mean like the last 2 times in Ukraine? Including requiring a defense agreement from America to ensure it didn't happen in 2022? And Chechnya (twice) and Georgia?

Ignorance must be bliss.

No Spin Ag said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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Trump is not isolationist. He just doesn't like fighting stupid pointless forever wars that don't need to be fought out of weakness and indecisiveness.

He's already said that hostilities will have to cease and serious negotiations take place to end the war in pragmatic terms. Ukraine will have to be willing to bargain territory and Russia will have to be serious or Trump might actually give Ukraine a flood of resources they can begin to win decisively with.

No more just feeding cash and men into a pointless waste. I hope he follows through and forces a real decisive end to it.

---

This is how I see it going as well.

Fact is the war is at a point where it's a standstill for both sides, even with the North Koreans thrown in as fodder. Putin won't get Ukraine, and Zalensky won't get back what Putin has taken, but it will be over.

Plus, once it's over and done with, the American companies can swoop into Ukraine and get wealthy beyond belief with all the rebuilding that will be done.

I can see Ukraine looking amazing compared to how it was even before the invasion. As a plus, I think Ukraine will be let into NATO, and in the end, while Putin did take some land, he also helped Ukraine rebuild itself into something better and helped it get into NATO.

Fair enough for me,

---

Just one problem with that. The parts Russia now controls are the parts of Ukraine that are vitally important to the USA and Europe for a wide variety of natural resources. Giving that control to Russia is like giving Iraq or Saudi oil to Iran. And people chearlead it without a clue.

No Spin Ag said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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Trump is not isolationist. He just doesn't like fighting stupid pointless forever wars that don't need to be fought out of weakness and indecisiveness.

He's already said that hostilities will have to cease and serious negotiations take place to end the war in pragmatic terms. Ukraine will have to be willing to bargain territory and Russia will have to be serious or Trump might actually give Ukraine a flood of resources they can begin to win decisively with.

No more just feeding cash and men into a pointless waste. I hope he follows through and forces a real decisive end to it.

---

This is how I see it going as well.

Fact is the war is at a point where it's a standstill for both sides, even with the North Koreans thrown in as fodder. Putin won't get Ukraine, and Zalensky won't get back what Putin has taken, but it will be over.

Plus, once it's over and done with, the American companies can swoop into Ukraine and get wealthy beyond belief with all the rebuilding that will be done.

I can see Ukraine looking amazing compared to how it was even before the invasion. As a plus, I think Ukraine will be let into NATO, and in the end, while Putin did take some land, he also helped Ukraine rebuild itself into something better and helped it get into NATO.

Fair enough for me,

---

There are reports that the Russian military is now sending troops to battle on four wheelers.

From https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/desperate-measures-russian-forces-use-golf-carts-ukraine-assault-211920

Quote:

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Amid severe equipment shortages, Russian forces resorted to using golf carts for assaults near Kupyansk, a key logistics hub.

The makeshift attack failed disastrously, highlighting Russia's desperate measures and disregard for soldiers' lives. Ukrainian forces report heavy Russian casualties, with 1,110 troops lost in a single day and substantial losses in vehicles, tanks, and artillery.

...

The Russian military is taking so many daily casualties that it is having a hard time fielding enough tactical vehicles to support its offensive operations. The best example of the results of this shortage took place recently near Kupyansk, in Eastern Ukraine.

A key logistical hub, Kupyansk is under Ukrainian control, having been liberated in September 2022 after a lightning counteroffensive that took the Russians by surprise. Since then, the Russians have tried to recapture Kupyansk and thereby seriously hamper Ukrainian logistics in Eastern Ukraine.

The Russian military has increased its offensives in the area recently. Extremely high losses in weapons systems forced Russian commanders to send their attacking troops on golf carts. The Russian regiment used at least five golf carts to carry troops close to Ukrainian trenches. As you can imagine, the attack didn't go well. All five golf carts were destroyed, and the Russian assault force was decimated by the fortified Ukrainians.

The incident shows both the materiel shortages in the Russian military and the complete disregard of Russian commanders for the lives of their soldiers. Indeed, a Russian infantryman in Ukraine is little more than cannon fodder, thrown en masse against fortified Ukrainian positions to attrite Kyiv's forces.

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There are also reports of Russia sending in troops to the front lines on motorcycles.

titan said:

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MB19 said:

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Teslag said:

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By the time he takes office I'm betting there's a ceasefire largely along current lines in Ukraine and by next summer there will be a peace deal in place with Ukraine joining NATO and formally ceding Crimea and other areas in the east to Russia.

---

Ukraine into NATO is an absolute red line that Russia will not accept.

---

Well, look at it their way. Would we accept Mexico or Canada joining a Chinese military alliance?

Its a fact can work with if have firm but sensible rather than belligerent policy.

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That' rediculous.

It would be like saying we wouldn't be happy with Canada, Mexico, and Puerto Rico joining a defense alliance after we lost our grasp from a horrible invasion, dictator controlled extermination, and socialism for decades. Oh and we've taken back over the bahamas and Guam who just like them escaped, but weren't allowed to join.

Eliminatus said:

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Wabs said:

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Ukrainian people are probably happier than anyone. Maybe now they can stop dying in an endless war.

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I will never begrudge anyone resisting an actual invading force of literal savages who want to erase you and your culture from the face of the world forever. The one unalienable right I figured we could all agree on is the right to self defense and to protect our women and children. Wild to see TA'ers cheer on a communist dictator to pillage and plunder all that he sees.

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Hate to break it to you, but he's not a commie, the areas they want are ethnic Russian, and there's surely a deal that can be reached to end the war and stop the killing and waste. The effect of this stupid war on people's lives in Ukraine and Russia as well as others, e.g., Egypt, are astronomical and have been catastrophic.

AgLA06 said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

---

Trump is not isolationist. He just doesn't like fighting stupid pointless forever wars that don't need to be fought out of weakness and indecisiveness.

He's already said that hostilities will have to cease and serious negotiations take place to end the war in pragmatic terms. Ukraine will have to be willing to bargain territory and Russia will have to be serious or Trump might actually give Ukraine a flood of resources they can begin to win decisively with.

No more just feeding cash and men into a pointless waste. I hope he follows through and forces a real decisive end to it.

---

This is how I see it going as well.

Fact is the war is at a point where it's a standstill for both sides, even with the North Koreans thrown in as fodder. Putin won't get Ukraine, and Zalensky won't get back what Putin has taken, but it will be over.

Plus, once it's over and done with, the American companies can swoop into Ukraine and get wealthy beyond belief with all the rebuilding that will be done.

I can see Ukraine looking amazing compared to how it was even before the invasion. As a plus, I think Ukraine will be let into NATO, and in the end, while Putin did take some land, he also helped Ukraine rebuild itself into something better and helped it get into NATO.

Fair enough for me,

---

Just one problem with that. The parts Russia now controls are the parts of Ukraine that are vitally important to the USA and Europe for a wide variety of natural resources. Giving that control to Russia is like giving Iraq or Saudi oil to Iran. And people chearlead it without a clue.

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That's just propaganda. The only resources Ukraine has that are vitally important to the US are its ability to launder money for our political class.

eric76 said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

---

Trump is not isolationist. He just doesn't like fighting stupid pointless forever wars that don't need to be fought out of weakness and indecisiveness.

He's already said that hostilities will have to cease and serious negotiations take place to end the war in pragmatic terms. Ukraine will have to be willing to bargain territory and Russia will have to be serious or Trump might actually give Ukraine a flood of resources they can begin to win decisively with.

No more just feeding cash and men into a pointless waste. I hope he follows through and forces a real decisive end to it.

---

This is how I see it going as well.

Fact is the war is at a point where it's a standstill for both sides, even with the North Koreans thrown in as fodder. Putin won't get Ukraine, and Zalensky won't get back what Putin has taken, but it will be over.

Plus, once it's over and done with, the American companies can swoop into Ukraine and get wealthy beyond belief with all the rebuilding that will be done.

I can see Ukraine looking amazing compared to how it was even before the invasion. As a plus, I think Ukraine will be let into NATO, and in the end, while Putin did take some land, he also helped Ukraine rebuild itself into something better and helped it get into NATO.

Fair enough for me,

---

There are reports that the Russian military is now sending troops to battle on four wheelers.

From https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/desperate-measures-russian-forces-use-golf-carts-ukraine-assault-211920

Quote:

---

Amid severe equipment shortages, Russian forces resorted to using golf carts for assaults near Kupyansk, a key logistics hub.

The makeshift attack failed disastrously, highlighting Russia's desperate measures and disregard for soldiers' lives. Ukrainian forces report heavy Russian casualties, with 1,110 troops lost in a single day and substantial losses in vehicles, tanks, and artillery.

...

The Russian military is taking so many daily casualties that it is having a hard time fielding enough tactical vehicles to support its offensive operations. The best example of the results of this shortage took place recently near Kupyansk, in Eastern Ukraine.

A key logistical hub, Kupyansk is under Ukrainian control, having been liberated in September 2022 after a lightning counteroffensive that took the Russians by surprise. Since then, the Russians have tried to recapture Kupyansk and thereby seriously hamper Ukrainian logistics in Eastern Ukraine.

The Russian military has increased its offensives in the area recently. Extremely high losses in weapons systems forced Russian commanders to send their attacking troops on golf carts. The Russian regiment used at least five golf carts to carry troops close to Ukrainian trenches. As you can imagine, the attack didn't go well. All five golf carts were destroyed, and the Russian assault force was decimated by the fortified Ukrainians.

The incident shows both the materiel shortages in the Russian military and the complete disregard of Russian commanders for the lives of their soldiers. Indeed, a Russian infantryman in Ukraine is little more than cannon fodder, thrown en masse against fortified Ukrainian positions to attrite Kyiv's forces.

---

There are also reports of Russia sending in troops to the front lines on motorcycles.

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That's just freaking sad. I read somewhere that a lot of Russian "soldiers" are little more than conscripted people forced to sacrifice themselves to stay out of prison.

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1nQ8SB.img

Quote:

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"The Chinese-made Desertcross is an 85-horsepower ATV. It's the kind of thing you'd find at a construction site or on a farm. It's not the kind of thing you'd ride into battle, as it lacks armor and weaponry," wrote Forbes's David Axe.

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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what about our invasion of Iraq?

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The one where we invaded AFTER iraq invaded Kuwait unprovoked?

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I had in mind 2003 more, but even 1990 had State Dept ineptitude helping to cause it.

The point is more simple: invasion alone doesn't mean your act has no basis or is not defensive in nature in a broad sense.

This mess is partly a product of our approach to the region and obtuseness. Especially about how threatening migrating the borders ever eastward and tighter around Russia looked to them. Now we have gotten into an almost irretrievable situation where Russia has stupidly created a sense where only NATO membership can keep their neighbors safe, thus defeating their purpose. But the derail didn't start with that actions of theirs.

A parallel can be drawn to how both W and Obama's acts undermined our own desire against proliferation -- Iraq and Libya sent the message you need to have nukes to be secure from us. That's the position Russia has got itself into, but we show no understanding of that.

Wabs said:

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Ukrainian people are probably happier than anyone. Maybe now they can stop dying in an endless war.

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Except the ones who were annexed and murdered by Russia...

titan said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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what about our invasion of Iraq?

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The one where we invaded AFTER iraq invaded Kuwait unprovoked?

---

I had in mind 2003 more, but even 1990 had State Dept ineptitude helping to cause it.

The point is more simple: invasion alone doesn't mean your act has no basis or is not defensive in nature in a broad sense.

This mess is partly a product of our approach to the region and obtuseness. Especially about how threatening migrating the borders ever eastward and tighter around Russia looked to them. Now we have gotten into an almost irretrievable situation where Russia has stupidly created a sense where only NATO membership can keep their neighbors safe, thus defeating their purpose. But the derail didn't start with that actions of theirs.

A parallel can be drawn to how both W and Obama's acts undermined our own desire against proliferation -- Iraq and Libya sent the message you need to have nukes to be secure from us. That's the position Russia has got itself into, but we show no understanding of that.

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Our state department is more interested in promoting the LGBTQ agenda than actual diplomacy.

How Gender Ideology Captured the State Department | City Journal

Teslag said:

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By the time he takes office I'm betting there's a ceasefire largely along current lines in Ukraine and by next summer there will be a peace deal in place with Ukraine joining NATO and formally ceding Crimea and other areas in the east to Russia.

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That land that Ukraine took over in Russian territory will be a VERY valuable bargaining chip in those negotiations. Putin doesn't want to lose ANY Russian soil.