Mxico > US. Sorry but true .

Funky Winkerbean said:

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To what degree? Have you factored in that the selling partner may have to lower their price before tariffs to remain competitive? Besides, if the Democrats did their jobs as sworn, we wouldn't be in this predicament that forces us to leverage our trade partners. Elections have consequences.

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No idea on the degree. If this stupid **** actually happens, we'll have to hope other, actually smart, actions taken help mitigate this dumbassery with economic upturns. I imagine those will become effective much slower with how badof a situation we're in, now.

His fiscal ****tardism during COVID started the inflationary spiral that Biden said "Hold my ice cream cone!" and turned to eleventy.

BigRobSA said:

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Bayou City said:

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Mxico > US. Sorry but true .

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My family left that ****hole for a reason. So...no. nowhere close to true. America is the best thing to happen to the world in all of history, warts and all.

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Mine did the same, and yes, America is second to no one, regardless of which side is in the White House.

Not a fan of PBS News, that said a few interesting points made in Trump's tariffs could speed up China's shift to new markets and offshore factories
quotes from the article;

• Visitors who bought fridge magnets at Times Square or other tourist hotspots around New York …,,,….Yiwu have been reducing their reliance on the world's largest consumer market as Beijing and Washington feud over trade. Some have moved production to Southeast Asia and other parts of the world to evade U.S. tariffs on Chinese goods.(re: holy crap we can't buy cheap ass magnets)
• raise tariffs on all Chinese imports and close some loopholes exporters currently use to sell their products more cheaply in the U.S. If enacted, his plans would likely raise prices in America and squeeze sales and profit margins for Chinese exporters.(re: they do lower profit margins to remain competitive with other countries exporting to U.S.)
• In contrast, the Middle East has become a better market, with higher prices and increasingly larger orders, she said.(re: could it be they overprice their crap in other countries sales to lower prices here?)
• Light manufacturing and textiles are among the industries expected to be hit hardest by new tariffs, along with steel and computers, according to a report by Chinese brokerage Caicong Securities.
• The Biden administration kept most of Trump's duties and layered on fresh ones on products such as steel, solar cells and electric vehicles(re: holy crap the Democratic Party leadership keep the tariffs, who would have guessed this based on the frigging MSM)
• One workaround for Chinese companies has been moving production abroad. Since Trump started a trade war with China during his first administration, the average U.S. tariffs on Chinese goods have been about 20%, according to Ma Hong, a professor of economics at Tsinghua University in Beijing.(re: wait/what ! moved production to avoid tariffs which hurts China's workers)
• One workaround for Chinese companies has been moving production abroad. Since Trump started a trade war with China during his first administration, the average U.S. tariffs on Chinese goods have been about 20%, according to Ma Hong, a professor of economics at Tsinghua University in Beijing.(re: still hurts the country targeted w/ tariffs)

The blanket statements insisting tariffs are a tax on the American citizens isn't totally true. Hense, after all of President Trump's tariffs the inflation rate at the end of his term was a paltry 1.7%(re: and note the Democratic Party leadership kept the tariffs, where's the MSM outrage)
They can be inflationary but sometimes they have effect intended to negotiate with abusive trading partners preying on the American public. It is a complex problem but may be quite effective.

richardag said:

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The blanket statements insisting tariffs are a tax on the American citizens isn't totally true. Hense, after all of President Trump's tariffs the inflation rate at the end of his term was a paltry 1.7%(re: and note the Democratic Party leadership kept the tariffs, where's the MSM outrage)

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It's a blanket statement for blanket tariffs. It's one thing to enforce tariffs on a single nation, even one from which we have imported as much as China. Tariffs across the board for imports from all nations is going to be highly inflationary, and it is going to hurt a lot of US citizen's pocketbooks.

Got a lot of people here saying they are more than happy to pay. Consuming as activism at it's finest. Hope it makes you believe you are making a difference in the world. If Trump goes all the way with his promises on this policy point, you are going to feel it, big time.

Quote:

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Now imagine if someone disturbs this situation by adding a very large number of people to this mix. It disrupts the balance. It drives down the salaries. Corps make money, which makes the execs rich but citizens poor. They cannot buy products. CEOs get rich, foreign workers get rich and locals get poor. Many foreign people are here temporarily so live on very low cost places. To compete with this, you have to live like that too, reducing the quality of life in America. It is lose lose for the citizens of a country.

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This is not how economics works at all. Firstly, the driving force behind immigration is labor demand. If there was no need for outside labor, there would be no financial incentive to immigrate here, and there would not be a border crisis. Instead, the hidden hand of capitalism is telling us that more workers are needed to reach a better supply&demand equilibrium.

Secondly, immigrants don't "steal" jobs from citizens. Their added consumption in the economy creates new jobs. In total, they don't really create or take jobs, they just make the economy bigger. Also, if what you're saying is true, natural population growth would lead to economic collapse since all jobs would eventually be taken. You're completely forgetting about job creation, which is caused by any population growth regardless of it being from birthrates or immigration.

Quote:

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Also, don't be fooled that "we import the brightest and best". I have worked with people from India, many are trash. Only a small % are good. Many are just shipped here and don't have a clue about anything, we have to train them at our expense.

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We don't need to import the best and brightest. The economy doesn't demand that every immigrant be a rocket scientist with a phd. Some labor doesn't require that much skill, and that's okay. We still need that kind of labor.

No Spin Ag said:

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infinity ag said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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infinity ag said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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infinity ag said:

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Well done.

AMERICA!!

Now let's abolish H1B program that is mercilessly raped and sodomized by corporations to get cheap slave labor.

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Do something that will cost companies money and cheap labor?!

Do you Capitalist, bro?

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I will give you some time to think deeply about what you just said.

(we are all capitalist, but we are nationalist first. Selling out to China, India and Mexico in the name of capitalism is why we are here today in this situation where everyone is taking advantage of us)

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So, country before profits at the expense of other countries taking advantage of us. I can so respect that.

Are you thinking that it would be best if we went back to pre-NAFTA ways?

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I am not familiar with NAFTA so I won't give an opinion before I read up...

My basic point is this. A country is healthy only if its citizens are healthy and employed and contributing. Now this is an ideal scenario but we should try to get close. Our companies create jobs and people work. Companies prosper and make money and so do the people who in turn buy products and the economy keeps going.

Now imagine if someone disturbs this situation by adding a very large number of people to this mix. It disrupts the balance. It drives down the salaries. Corps make money, which makes the execs rich but citizens poor. They cannot buy products. CEOs get rich, foreign workers get rich and locals get poor. Many foreign people are here temporarily so live on very low cost places. To compete with this, you have to live like that too, reducing the quality of life in America. It is lose lose for the citizens of a country.

Also, don't be fooled that "we import the brightest and best". I have worked with people from India, many are trash. Only a small % are good. Many are just shipped here and don't have a clue about anything, we have to train them at our expense.

In 2024, we have too many good qualified citizens chasing too few good jobs. So we don't need foreign workers. So suspend H1B for a few years until this balance returns. US companies get benefits of operating from the US and have a responsibility towards the country just like citizens do. I, as an American citizen cannot work against the interests of the US. If everyone did that, the country would sink.

Corps won't do that on their own. So the Govt has to step in and make them. I am also in favor of tariffs as needed. Other countries apply tariffs on us, why not us apply it on them?

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Honestly, it looks like we agree on most things, save the tarrifs. Don't get me wrong, i really won't feel them, like many of us, but it just seems like it can open a can of worms that might affect those who can't afford to take the hit.

Still, I appreciate you going into detail on how you see things. Here's to hoping it all turns out okay.

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Thanks, good discussion!
My view on tariffs is reciprocity. If China applies tariffs on our products, it gives us an unfair disadvantage. We neutralize it with tariffs on their products. If UK has no tariffs on our stuff, we don't put tariffs on theirs.
I hope this clarifies my stance on tariffs.

The other thing is I think we use "capitalism" like some Muslims use Islam. If someone disagrees with anything even slightly, then blasphemy charges are put. So no one in Islamic countries dares to change anything, they will die doing that. I am all for free trade. But only if the conditions for free trade are met. And it is advantageous to both parties. If we have "free trade" which drives me to poverty, I don't want "free trade" or whatever it is called.

The whole H1B thing is a racket. I have worked with some of these types. Many of them are just so dumb. Many don't even have degrees. Some who do are from terrible institutes which exist just to print degrees. Why do we need such people? They get rich because some US CEO doesn't care since he is gone in 2 years anyway. Do you think someone like Steve Jobs would ever hire them in large numbers? He would pick and choose among them. US citizens cannot compete with people who will take $30k for software programmer jobs (quality doesn't matter, quantity does) when he will need $70-80k to survive in the US. He has no place to go, the H1B will go back to India or China or Philippines. I don't want US citizens to suffer this scam any longer under the name of "free markets" and "capitalism". I have seen too much of this over 25 years.

Ag_of_08 said:

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infinity ag said:

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Ag_of_08 said:

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How is mexico "paying for" a tarrif that we have to pay....

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"tarrif"

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I made a typo typing on my phone.... you got me.

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No Spin Ag said:

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BigRobSA said:

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Bayou City said:

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Mxico > US. Sorry but true .

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My family left that ****hole for a reason. So...no. nowhere close to true. America is the best thing to happen to the world in all of history, warts and all.

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Mine did the same, and yes, America is second to no one, regardless of which side is in the White House.

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Yep.
We all have the best life here. The ones who beach and moan can go anywhere else and try living there. And those people please don't come back!

Dreigh said:

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richardag said:

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The blanket statements insisting tariffs are a tax on the American citizens isn't totally true. Hense, after all of President Trump's tariffs the inflation rate at the end of his term was a paltry 1.7%(re: and note the Democratic Party leadership kept the tariffs, where's the MSM outrage)

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It's a blanket statement for blanket tariffs. It's one thing to enforce tariffs on a single nation, even one from which we have imported as much as China. Tariffs across the board for imports from all nations is going to be highly inflationary, and it is going to hurt a lot of US citizen's pocketbooks.

Got a lot of people here saying they are more than happy to pay. Consuming as activism at it's finest. Hope it makes you believe you are making a difference in the world. If Trump goes all the way with his promises on this policy point, you are going to feel it, big time.

---

Understood. Blanket tariffs on 3 countries. I believe there are upwards of 180 countries. China manufacturing is moving to Southeast Asia & India. Point being it is an international problem and isn't the simple issue that it is being made out to be. Then there is that annoying fact that even after all those tariffs President Trump initiated inflation was 1.7% @ the end of his term.

A plank of the Democratic Party is raising taxes on corporations. Yet they'll somehow find outrage about strategic targeted threats of tariffs because it'll be "a tax on consumers".

Dreigh said:

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richardag said:

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The blanket statements insisting tariffs are a tax on the American citizens isn't totally true. Hense, after all of President Trump's tariffs the inflation rate at the end of his term was a paltry 1.7%(re: and note the Democratic Party leadership kept the tariffs, where's the MSM outrage)

---

It's a blanket statement for blanket tariffs. It's one thing to enforce tariffs on a single nation, even one from which we have imported as much as China. Tariffs across the board for imports from all nations is going to be highly inflationary, and it is going to hurt a lot of US citizen's pocketbooks.

Got a lot of people here saying they are more than happy to pay. Consuming as activism at it's finest. Hope it makes you believe you are making a difference in the world. If Trump goes all the way with his promises on this policy point, you are going to feel it, big time.

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That's why he's floated eliminating income tax. If he succeeds, it's a conservatives wet dream come true. Taxes paid on consumption gets all classes participating.

BigRobSA said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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To what degree? Have you factored in that the selling partner may have to lower their price before tariffs to remain competitive? Besides, if the Democrats did their jobs as sworn, we wouldn't be in this predicament that forces us to leverage our trade partners. Elections have consequences.

---

No idea on the degree. If this stupid **** actually happens, we'll have to hope other, actually smart, actions taken help mitigate this dumbassery with economic upturns. I imagine those will become effective much slower with how badof a situation we're in, now.

His fiscal ****tardism during COVID started the inflationary spiral that Biden said "Hold my ice cream cone!" and turned to eleventy.

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See above.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Dreigh said:

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richardag said:

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The blanket statements insisting tariffs are a tax on the American citizens isn't totally true. Hense, after all of President Trump's tariffs the inflation rate at the end of his term was a paltry 1.7%(re: and note the Democratic Party leadership kept the tariffs, where's the MSM outrage)

---

It's a blanket statement for blanket tariffs. It's one thing to enforce tariffs on a single nation, even one from which we have imported as much as China. Tariffs across the board for imports from all nations is going to be highly inflationary, and it is going to hurt a lot of US citizen's pocketbooks.

Got a lot of people here saying they are more than happy to pay. Consuming as activism at it's finest. Hope it makes you believe you are making a difference in the world. If Trump goes all the way with his promises on this policy point, you are going to feel it, big time.

---

That's why he's floated eliminating income tax. If he succeeds, it's a conservatives wet dream come true. Taxes paid on consumption gets all classes participating.

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If you eliminate income tax, how does the govt pay for infra and services?

Amped up Consumption (sales ) tax. Won't ever happen tho . Will be considered too regressive and claimed to hurt the poor much worse than the more well off. That's jmo of course .

Consumption tax.

Now imagine the 50% in this country who don't pay anything, actually paying in. Huge boost.

The people that think tariffs raise prices are the same people dumbfounded by the concept that lower tax rates increase tax revenue.

It's incredible how hard it is for some to grasp the concept of behavioral change.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Dreigh said:

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richardag said:

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The blanket statements insisting tariffs are a tax on the American citizens isn't totally true. Hense, after all of President Trump's tariffs the inflation rate at the end of his term was a paltry 1.7%(re: and note the Democratic Party leadership kept the tariffs, where's the MSM outrage)

---

It's a blanket statement for blanket tariffs. It's one thing to enforce tariffs on a single nation, even one from which we have imported as much as China. Tariffs across the board for imports from all nations is going to be highly inflationary, and it is going to hurt a lot of US citizen's pocketbooks.

Got a lot of people here saying they are more than happy to pay. Consuming as activism at it's finest. Hope it makes you believe you are making a difference in the world. If Trump goes all the way with his promises on this policy point, you are going to feel it, big time.

---

That's why he's floated eliminating income tax. If he succeeds, it's a conservatives wet dream come true. Taxes paid on consumption gets all classes participating.

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Wait until you are paying 30% federal sales taxes on all of your purchases.

fredfredunderscorefred said:

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A plank of the Democratic Party is raising taxes on corporations. Yet they'll somehow find outrage about strategic targeted threats of tariffs because it'll be "a tax on consumers".

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Agree.

It's amazing how the MSM is absolutely sure that corporations will pass on tariffs to consumers, but that those same corporations will never pass on increased corporate taxes. I actually think they understand that increased corporate taxes are a shadow tax on individuals …..but that they just can't stop themselves from being leftist propaganda pieces.

infinity ag said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Dreigh said:

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richardag said:

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The blanket statements insisting tariffs are a tax on the American citizens isn't totally true. Hense, after all of President Trump's tariffs the inflation rate at the end of his term was a paltry 1.7%(re: and note the Democratic Party leadership kept the tariffs, where's the MSM outrage)

---

It's a blanket statement for blanket tariffs. It's one thing to enforce tariffs on a single nation, even one from which we have imported as much as China. Tariffs across the board for imports from all nations is going to be highly inflationary, and it is going to hurt a lot of US citizen's pocketbooks.

Got a lot of people here saying they are more than happy to pay. Consuming as activism at it's finest. Hope it makes you believe you are making a difference in the world. If Trump goes all the way with his promises on this policy point, you are going to feel it, big time.

---

That's why he's floated eliminating income tax. If he succeeds, it's a conservatives wet dream come true. Taxes paid on consumption gets all classes participating.

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If you eliminate income tax, how does the govt pay for infra and services?

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Tariffs

Bayou City said:

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Mxico > US. Sorry but true .

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Lol. Most ridiculous post of all time on this board.

eric76 said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Dreigh said:

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richardag said:

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The blanket statements insisting tariffs are a tax on the American citizens isn't totally true. Hense, after all of President Trump's tariffs the inflation rate at the end of his term was a paltry 1.7%(re: and note the Democratic Party leadership kept the tariffs, where's the MSM outrage)

---

It's a blanket statement for blanket tariffs. It's one thing to enforce tariffs on a single nation, even one from which we have imported as much as China. Tariffs across the board for imports from all nations is going to be highly inflationary, and it is going to hurt a lot of US citizen's pocketbooks.

Got a lot of people here saying they are more than happy to pay. Consuming as activism at it's finest. Hope it makes you believe you are making a difference in the world. If Trump goes all the way with his promises on this policy point, you are going to feel it, big time.

---

That's why he's floated eliminating income tax. If he succeeds, it's a conservatives wet dream come true. Taxes paid on consumption gets all classes participating.

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Wait until you are paying 30% federal sales taxes on all of your purchases.

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Wait until you pay 30% on your income..

Jack Boyette said:

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The people that think tariffs raise prices are the same people dumbfounded by the concept that lower tax rates increase tax revenue.

It's incredible how hard it is for some to grasp the concept of behavioral change.

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Explain it to me like I'm 10, please. I understand the latter. I don't understand how a higher tax does not lead to a higher price. Same concept as higher corporate taxes getting passed along to consumers in the price of a good. Behavioral changes can lead to spending in other closely priced items, so inflation may not be the full tariff amount, but to argue that there is not inflation necessarily means that currently the overall market is inexplicably misallocated.

does trump have the authority to allocate money from tariffs? say border security? or does that lie exclusively with congress?

Wait until you're paying both, because the govt never truly gets rid of a tax....

Jack Boyette said:

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The people that think tariffs raise prices are the same people dumbfounded by the concept that lower tax rates increase tax revenue.

It's incredible how hard it is for some to grasp the concept of behavioral change.

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How does a tax on a good not raise prices?

Please explain it then.

Conservatives know tariffs raise prices

Conservatives know lower tax rates increase tax revenue.


Trumps tarrifs are a negotiating tool. They aren't a long term sound economic policy

richardag said:

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Dreigh said:

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richardag said:

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The blanket statements insisting tariffs are a tax on the American citizens isn't totally true. Hense, after all of President Trump's tariffs the inflation rate at the end of his term was a paltry 1.7%(re: and note the Democratic Party leadership kept the tariffs, where's the MSM outrage)

---

It's a blanket statement for blanket tariffs. It's one thing to enforce tariffs on a single nation, even one from which we have imported as much as China. Tariffs across the board for imports from all nations is going to be highly inflationary, and it is going to hurt a lot of US citizen's pocketbooks.

Got a lot of people here saying they are more than happy to pay. Consuming as activism at its finest. Hope it makes you believe you are making a difference in the world. If Trump goes all the way with his promises on this policy point, you are going to feel it, big time.

---

Understood. Blanket tariffs on 3 countries. I believe there are upwards of 180 countries. China manufacturing is moving to Southeast Asia & India. Point being it is an international problem and isn't the simple issue that it is being made out to be. Then there is that annoying fact that even after all those tariffs President Trump initiated inflation was 1.7% @ the end of his term.

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those three countries happen to be the top 3 we import goods from, over 40% of our imports come from them. trump never implemented blanket tariffs in his first term on the scale he's proposing now.

No Spin Ag said:

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infinity ag said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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infinity ag said:

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Well done.

AMERICA!!

Now let's abolish H1B program that is mercilessly raped and sodomized by corporations to get cheap slave labor.

---

Do something that will cost companies money and cheap labor?!

Do you Capitalist, bro?

---

I will give you some time to think deeply about what you just said.

(we are all capitalist, but we are nationalist first. Selling out to China, India and Mexico in the name of capitalism is why we are here today in this situation where everyone is taking advantage of us)

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So, country before profits at the expense of other countries taking advantage of us. I can so respect that.

Are you thinking that it would be best if we went back to pre-NAFTA ways?

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Yes.Nafta, ruined my Papa as it did most small sized cattle ranchers in Texas. When i say small I'm talking around 300 head.

Funky Winkerbean said:

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Consumption tax.

Now imagine the 50% in this country who don't pay anything, actually paying in. Huge boost.

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But don't we have consumption/sales tax even now? Between about 5% to 10% in most states. What happens to that, does that go up to maybe 20% to make up?

Ag_of_08 said:

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Jack Boyette said:

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The people that think tariffs raise prices are the same people dumbfounded by the concept that lower tax rates increase tax revenue.

It's incredible how hard it is for some to grasp the concept of behavioral change.

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How does a tax on a good not raise prices?

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We have to pay taxes, why shouldn't they?

I think the tax code needs to be fixed, it is still too complex and full of loopholes for the super wealthy.
Also, we need to ear-mark x % to pay off the debt. I don't know what that percentage is but we cannot let it grow forever.
$35T already.

infinity ag said:

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Funky Winkerbean said:

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Consumption tax.

Now imagine the 50% in this country who don't pay anything, actually paying in. Huge boost.

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But don't we have consumption/sales tax even now? Between about 5% to 10% in most states. What happens to that, does that go up to maybe 20% to make up?

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Yes.

The beauty of it is, if you choose to cut back and focus on saving money you can. All DIY saving is now tax free.