One critical fact you have omitted from our nation's 'failures' regarding our building of much-needed Panamanian infrastructure is the insistence upon the "Green New Deal" BULL*****! I was tasked by a local TX/LA company (I'm licensed in both states, so I guess they went cheap & hired my dumbass instead of an attorney from each state) 2 or so years ago when China was getting real active in the region with their own building proposals. Instead of promising funding, cooperation, & results, our nation wanted assurances about electric this & that, minimum carbon output, etc, etc. There was an even a contractual clause requesting favoritism be paid to "under represented communities", which means the U.S. wanted homosexuals (primarily) to be over represented in the workforce. In Panama, homosexuals aren't glorified, so how in the hell would an employer know to hire them unless they showed up in drag? And the contract required BOTH Panama & the U.S. companies to adhere to these demands if they wanted funding. Meanwhile, China will pollute without remorse, all the while formenting hate towards 'colonizers' & the US; while I agree that the majority of Panamanian folks are great, there's a crap load of Communist sympathizers overtly working to undue Western influence. And make no mistake, if we wanted to, would could bring Panama to its knees begging for forgiveness; we've given them SO VERY MUCH, but they got greedy when China came poking around without the ridiculous "Green/ Queer" mandates, but make no mistake, we could literally upend their entire world so they better get in line & behave now that we have real leadership! Their "loyalty" will be rewarded, but their 'threats' (including extortion) will be met with overwhelming political & economic hostility.

Also, the U.S. Corporation I worked for backed out & apologized to Panama but said they can't implement the unicorn farts the Biden Administration wanted- LOL!

Lol no one in Latina America would care if we took the canal back ita ours anyway we literally made up Panama

Pumpkinhead said:

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The Panama Canal is central to Panama's cultural identity. The Panama Canal's revenues fund Panama's Social Security system. It is a prosperous and stable country that has become an economic hub of Central America. A large number of corporations have their region HQs here. Some parts of Panama City feels like a Latin America Miami. The Panamanians have done an excellent job operating the Panama Canal itself

The U.S. military already has close cooperation with the Panamanians. I know folks at the Embassy. Over the years when I go to my local gym, I have often run into U.S. special forces guys working out while in-country here. Oh, on the contrary, you know how many Chinese soldiers I have ever run into at the gym? Exactly zero.

Taking back the Canal is a non-negotiable topic to the Panamanians. Could the U.S. militarily do it? Sure. But then you break this country, you own it. It would wreck and destabilize the United State's best success story and closest ally in the region.

You wreck the country, then The local population becomes hostile. The U.S. would become a pariah in Latin America at a huge cost for very little gain over what they already have. You'd basically make China look like the 'good guys' and turn everyone in that direction for support.

Anybody who has actually recently visited Panama and knows this place would understand literally physically 'taking back' the Canal would be a very stupid adventure. That horse left the barn a long time ago. I can tell you that few here are worrying about U.S. troops ever actually showing up and asking for the keys to the Canal back.

That is just political grenade throwing and posturing. What this is really about is concerns RE China's Belt & Road initiative and a growing economic influence in the region. A bit about complaints with fees. And Panama will be more than willing to work with the U.S. in that regard if the U.S. opens the checkbook. The infrastructure projects are going to happen one way or another. Somebody has to get the contracts to run the ports. Build roads and bridges and train railways. 'Opening the check book' isn't insulting. It is doing business and the U.S. either steps up to the plate more in that regard or continues letting other interested parties (Chinese companies, cough, cough) fill that void.
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I'm with you until that last paragraph. The US built the canal and provides the protection for the canal. We deserve special treatment for that and if Panama acts like all we are is a piggy bank they can charge whatever they want whenever they want that's unacceptable. I do agree that no one wants military action involved and it would not be ideal for the US to take back the canal. That said Panama is forgetting who built it, who protects them, and that if it weren't for the US they would just be part of Columbia. They literally would not be a country at all had we not made it so. They can make lots of money on the canal and that's fine. They just need to treat the US as their most valued partner and not flirt with our enemies as though they are just selling to the highest bidder.

FWIW I have been wanting to go to Panama and do some Deep Sea Fishing, I've heard it's incredible. Lots of potential there and if they decide to be a partner with the US and be smart they can build a larger economy than simply relying on the canal. Poking the bear though and treating the US as though we need to bow to them and do whatever they want is how things go sideways.

I do agree military action would have all kinds of negative consequences. On the other hand it would also show Panama and South and Central America who runs the Western Hemisphere and it is a far better idea to be good partners with us rather than to consort with our enemies and extort us for money.

Ask anybody in the U.S. state department who is involved with Latin America who the strongest ally of the U.S. is in Central or South America and they will say 'Panama'.

Roughly 1 in 100 people living here is an American ex-pat.

Is the money we pledge a loan or investment?

I've heard this same thing. That U.S. companies are sometimes not as equipped to play the game overseas as Chinese companies are. Handicapped by U.S. laws and regulations that the Chinese do not worry about.

Pumpkinhead said:

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Ask anybody in the U.S. state department who is involved with Latin America who the strongest ally of the U.S. is in Central or South America and they will say 'Panama'.

Roughly 1 in 100 people living here is an American ex-pat.

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Then they should act like it and quit acting like the cake is free. Just be a good partner. I am not saying that Panama doesn't like the US anymore than Canada doesn't like the US but that doesn't mean we should just send them endless money and not expect special treatment. The country doesn't exist without us. The canal doesn't exist without us. The protection of both don't exist without us. If the US wasn't involved Columbia or another country may have just decided to take it over and there would be nothing they could do about it.

It's about being partners. When the terms thrown around are "Panama is a sovereign state and expects to be treated as such" and "If the US doesn't send Panama a ton of money with minimal strings they can just sell out to China" that's how things go badly and the reminders of why they exist and are allowed to exist start getting mentioned.

It's really easy. Make sure that China and our enemies are nowhere near the entry points or can exude any type of control over the canal. Give US ships some level of preference in going through the canal as well, hell there aren't even that many US Flagged ships that use the canal so the revenue we are talking about is a rounding error. In exchange they get protection, favorable trade terms, and the world's largest economy and military with a vested interest in the success of their country. Seems like a pretty good deal for everyone.

As an aside, if there was ever a "Good cop, bad cop" play it is Trump and Rubio.

richardag said:

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Is the money we pledge a loan or investment?

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Per the U.S. state department, the United States apparently provides more foreign direct investment in Panama than any other country, for example with a total direct investment position of $3.8 billion in 2022. The energy and infrastructure, finance and insurance, and wholesale trade sectors lead U.S. direct investment in Panama, while the real estate and wholesale trade sectors lead Panamanian direct investment in the United States.

That said, as mentioned on this thread, the Chinese Belt & Road initiative started a bit over a decade ago got some traction in Panama. Two of the 5 port concessions on the Pacific and Atlantic sides of the canal are Chinese company contracts. A Chinese construction company is also currently building a new bridge over the Canal. There was a Cruise ship terminal finished a couple years back by a Chinese company. There is also plans for a train service connecting Panama and Costa Rica that I'm sure Chinese companies will be placing bids for.

By no means is this just Panama. It is going on all over Latin America and really the world. The same Hong Kong company with that Panama Canal Port concession runs 53 ports around the world, include ports in UK, Netherlands, Australia, Mexico, Brazil, etc. China has put a lot of emphasis on being a global infrastructure developer.

Panama is just one ant in a war between the U.S. and China economic elephants.

rocky the dog said:

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"Carry a big stick. Yuge they say..."

Ships traveling between U.S. coastal ports is about 70% of the ship traffic through the canal.

There is zero Chinese control over the ACP who operates the Canal. Every one of the approx. 8000 employees is required to be fluent in English. Currency of the country is the U.S. dollar.

Side note RE Texas A&M connection, President of Panama during the Obama administration was a Texas A&M graduate. Also, during the Bush administration, the Administrator of the Canal was a Texas A&M graduate. A&M is a very popular university for the Panamanian folks and there is a large Former Students association here.

Chinese money has crept into infrastructure in the areas around the Canal. China has nothing to do with the operation of the Canal itself.

Note that the 1977 treaty actually forbids Panama from having different rates based on country origin. No favoritism is allowed with regards to that by law. Panama's operation of the Canal is required to remain neutral and charge fees equally.

The one favoritism the U.S. does get is that U.S. military ships always get immediate priority (go to the front of the queue) if requested.

Gigem314 said:

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rocky the dog said:

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"Carry a big stick. Yuge they say..."

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China owns two ports on either side of the canal they could scuttle the canal in minutes

HoustonAg9999 said:

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China owns two ports on either side of the canal they could scuttle the canal in minutes

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That would be an act of war. Xi isn't that stupid

So
Much
Winning

Gaeilge said:

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HoustonAg9999 said:

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China owns two ports on either side of the canal they could scuttle the canal in minutes

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That would be an act of war. Xi isn't that stupid

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I get the concern about growing economic influence due to the Chinese money flowing in, but there are a variety of ways that China could hit the Panama Canal if they wanted to start WW3. They wouldn't need a Chinese company running one of the ports. Just park a submarine nearby outside the Pacific entrance and shoot the missiles when Fearless Leader says let them fly.

So, to me the Canal being more easily militarily attacked are more politician posturing than something I can really buy into.

Now, if the Chinese run ports are being used to help illegal drug trade flowing up into the U.S., etc...well that is a different kind of U.S. national security problem that I can certainly understand.

But concerns about China physically shutting down the Canal, as I said, China doesn't need Chinese port companies to do that. They got plenty of military toys to play with.

Pumpkinhead said:

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Ships traveling between U.S. coastal ports is about 70% of the ship traffic through the canal.

There is zero Chinese control over the ACP who operates the Canal. Every one of the approx. 8000 employees is required to be fluent in English. Many have attended U.S. universities.

Chinese money has crept into infrastructure in the areas around the Canal. China has nothing to do with the operation of the Canal itself.

Note that the 1977 treaty actually forbids Panama from having different rates based on country origin. No favoritism is allowed with regards to that by law. Panama's operation of the Canal is required to remain neutral and charge fees equally.

The one favoritism the U.S. does get is that U.S. military ships always get immediate priority (go to the front of the queue) if requested.

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US coastal port shipping is not the same as US Flagged ships. A Liberian flagged ship owned by a Norwegian company that is going from Florida to California and has to stop off in between they can charge what they want. There are less than 100 Jones Act qualified ships and that's a bad thing for the US btw. It's about 1/3rd as many as when the Canal Treaty was signed. We need to have more US flag, US manned ships and not jeopardize our shipping industry. Anything that encourages that is a positive and it is a token for Panama to give them a discount or priority. Carter signed about the dumbest treaty imaginable btw so it sounds like that needs to be renegotiated. We don't need to keep doing stupid things because we have been doing stupid things for decades. BTW, having a strong US Maritime industry is good for Panama.

Call me skeptical on Chinese influence. They don't play fair and transparent and Panama isn't exactly a model of a country that is beyond corruption. CK Hutchison is Chinese and it manages 2 of the 5 ports, one on each side of the canal. I don't want to see any Chinese money or influence anywhere near the canal. The fact we have tolerated it is unacceptable.

There is definitely a lot of corruption in Panama, though actually not with the revenue generated by the Canal itself or how the Canal operates. The ACP operation itself is clean. I was involved in a bidding process many years ago to do work for the Canal and the process was very strict.

I got pretty good personal sources on that topic on both Panama and U.S. sides. But other areas in Panama, such as infrastructure projects the money flow can be pretty fishy. Panama is pretty nice place to live and IMO one of the best places to live in Latin America, but by no means is it perfect.

bonfarr said:

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John Kerry should be tried for Treason for stating the Monroe Doctrine was over.

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I am sure his coffers were lined with chinese money along with the Biden's, McConnell's and many other DC swamp rats. They had no problem with China making investments and creating strategic strongholds in these latin American countries

Ellis Wyatt said:

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Democrats are going to go ballistic.

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Just wait until sign is changed at the last lock heading east that says "Welcome to the Gulf of America"!

Pumpkinhead said:

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There is definitely a lot of corruption in Panama, though actually not with the revenue generated by the Canal itself or how the Canal operates. The ACP operation itself is clean. I was involved in a bidding process many years ago to do work for the Canal and the process was very strict.

I got pretty good personal sources on that topic on both Panama and U.S. sides. But other areas in Panama, such as infrastructure projects the money flow can be pretty fishy. Panama is pretty nice place to live and IMO one of the best places to live in Latin America, but by no means is it perfect.

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I think the greater point is Panama would be wise not to poke the bear. The US isn't looking for much but the reality is they expect to be treated as the special partners that they are.

The expectation is that most Latin American countries have a degree of corruption. I don't know that Panama is particularly better or worse than others. They do have a guaranteed revenue source and a lot of countries and companies that have a vested interest in that canal though even if it isn't direct operations. I don't think the US even cares that much so long as they aren't stealing our money. It's all about US self interest and reminding Panama that they would be wise to tread carefully. Even the slightest perception that the canal is threatened justifies a very strong response from the US. The thing is that the last few decades we have kind of let Panama do whatever they want and Trump is making it clear that's over.

Fortunately it sounds like the meeting with Rubio went well and we are on the path to making sure everyone is content. Both sides get to win if we are smart and I think that will happen here.

This is getting stupid. I can't even keep up with all the winning. How am I supposed to even know what is going on without reading 24x7.

JUST IN: The Hong Kong company that owns ports on the Panama Canal is suddenly selling its stake to an American group of investors.

This is a result of intense pressure from President Trump on the Panamanians to remove the influence of the CCP.

— George (@BehizyTweets) March 4, 2025

will25u said:

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JUST IN: The Hong Kong company that owns ports on the Panama Canal is suddenly selling its stake to an American group of investors.

This is a result of intense pressure from President Trump on the Panamanians to remove the influence of the CCP.

— George (@BehizyTweets) March 4, 2025

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Suck it, China!

will25u said:

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JUST IN: The Hong Kong company that owns ports on the Panama Canal is suddenly selling its stake to an American group of investors.

This is a result of intense pressure from President Trump on the Panamanians to remove the influence of the CCP.

— George (@BehizyTweets) March 4, 2025

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Thanks for the update, good to see these bumped when progress is made

Lets us know Trump is really 100% getting it done, not just some quick photo op win after inauguration.

Wonder what is up in Greenland

will25u said:

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JUST IN: The Hong Kong company that owns ports on the Panama Canal is suddenly selling its stake to an American group of investors.

This is a result of intense pressure from President Trump on the Panamanians to remove the influence of the CCP.

— George (@BehizyTweets) March 4, 2025

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Blackrock

Ulysses90 said:

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First feather in Marco's cap as SecState. Teddy Roosevelt is smiling because Donald Trump understood the assignment on carrying a BIG stick.

🚨BREAKING: Panama's President has ended the country's Panama Canal deal with China, immediately following a meeting with U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

Are we tired of winning yet?
pic.twitter.com/sOQJZJJc5E

— Benny Johnson (@bennyjohnson) February 2, 2025

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All I see are wins.

And big phat dem tears!

Keep the winning up. Dems crying.

Or not...

“Hong Kong tycoon Li Ka-shing’s CK Hutchison Holdings will not go ahead with the expected signing of a deal next week to sell its two strategic Panama Canal ports, the Post has learned, with Beijing saying it will launch an antitrust probe into the sale.”https://t.co/FPNLhs3SGQ

— Jerry Dunleavy IV 🇺🇸 (@JerryDunleavy) March 28, 2025

This could be a flashpoint for escalation soon.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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Democrats are going to go ballistic.

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And they won't even be able to explain why because this is just about hating Trump no matter what he does.

Ol Pete sent a squadron of Marine F-18s to Panama. Love to see China attempt that type of force projection.
U.S. Marine Corps F/A-18C/D Hornet fighters arrive in Panama to begin new training exercises with SENAN

Back and forth back and forth.

🇵🇦🇺🇸🇨🇳 | URGENT

Panama breaks with China and aligns itself with the US: Mulino abandons the Silk Road, resumes military exercises with Washington, and joins forces with Hegseth to secure the Canal, curb migration, and contain the communist advance in the region. pic.twitter.com/CTWgT46JBv

— BowTiedMara (@BowTiedMara) April 9, 2025

🚨SEC. HEGSETH: "We'll be signing...a joint declaration with the minister of canal affairs on the security & operation of the Panama Canal, which is a framework for U.S. warships & auxiliary ships to sail first & free through the Panama Canal." pic.twitter.com/yuwfF0auQg

— Breaking911 (@Breaking911) April 9, 2025