LOYAL AG said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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Resident of Panama here. That tweet is a bit misleading of what the Panama president said. He said they would not renew the Belt & Road initiative with China. Which is China's ambitious infrastructure investments that 120+ countries world wide are participating in. Basically Panama has said they will stop taking China's money if the U.S. invests in the infrastructure instead.

Panama is a very pro-US country. Many of the people in government here have studied at U.S. universities including the current president who went to Tulane for example. They will happily work with the U.S. as long as the U.S. is willing to open the checkbook. U.S. has been asleep here for a couple decades and Chinese money partly filled the void. Not personal. Just business.

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So you mean the US has lacked leadership over the past 35 years since the wall fell? I believe that. After HW the U.S. vanished from the world stage and nature abhors a vacuum. 20 of the 32 years since HW were Democrats who has no interest at all in foreign affairs never mind in furthering American interests abroad. For his part W was heavily distracted which makes sense.

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Its not much exaggeration to say Reagan was the last U.S. focused President before 45 rather than internationally (or worse `globalist') focused, subjecting us to overseas agendas and rules. Ironically the one exception might be not 43, but 42 Clinton. If you use border policy alone you can see the difference -- Clinton sounds like a right winger, and even in the midst of the 9/11 war Bush had to be slapped back from an amnesty tone, and opposed to profiling, etc. (Also the mosque at Ground Zero stuff).

Way Good Bull!
Congratulations DJT and Marco Rubio for showing us how it is done. Took less than two weeks for this and getting the hostages back from Venezuela.

BadMoonRisin said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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Resident of Panama here. That tweet is a bit misleading of what the Panama president said. He said they would not renew the Belt & Road initiative with China. Which is China's ambitious infrastructure investments that 120+ countries world wide are participating in. Basically Panama has said they will stop taking China's money if the U.S. invests in the infrastructure instead.

Panama is a very pro-US country. Many of the people in government here have studied at U.S. universities including the current president who went to Tulane for example. They will happily work with the U.S. as long as the U.S. is willing to open the checkbook. U.S. has been asleep here for a couple decades and Chinese money partly filled the void. Not personal. Just business.

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Panama got checked against the boards and fell in line, as they should.

They have zero leverage. They need to sit down and stfu, first and foremost.

US leadership is back again. China can go get ****ed.

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Panama is very small with no military but is still a sovereign country that has some leverage in that it would do no good for the U.S. to wreck/destablize what is a Latin American success story in Panama whose population is largely pro-U.S. and due to the Darien Gap and the Canal is strategically important.

A economically prosperous pro U.S. Panama running the Canal is good for Panama and good for the U.S.

Rubio repeated that while down here today.

What does need to happen however is the U.S. needs to get more active in replacing some Chinese money with U.S. money. That seems to be what this is largely about.

But I assure you…Panama isn't just going to walk away from cheap Chinese money for free. The U.S. is/will be carroting as well. That is the price of business.

Gaeilge said:

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So all of Trump's provocative talk about taking back the Panama Canal yielded the exact result he wanted.

The man knows how to play the game. He never wanted the canal back. He just wanted to put the screws to the Chinese. And he has!

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Yes!
The Libs were still polishing their talking points on how Trump was going to start WWIII over Panama when this news came in.

Winning winning too much winning.

So much winning that I demand it be made illegal.

Winning will be the death of me.

I've been reading Theodore Rex which covers Teddy's presidency. After listening to all it took to get the deal done over 100 years ago, it blows my mind that we were going to give it away.

Wonder how big of check Trump had to write$$$$$.

TX_COWDOC said:

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I've been reading Theodore Rex which covers Teddy's presidency. After listening to all it took to get the deal done over 100 years ago, it blows my mind that we were going to give it away.

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^ Totally agree.
However, some posters on F16 have posted that it was a deal at the time for Carter to give it away because it saved us all the money we were going to have to spend to repair/improve/upgrade the Canal.

Sounds like Carter: giving away biggest strategic/commercial shipping choke point in the Western Hemisphere and making it sound like a clever thing to do.

TAMUallen said:

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The winning is non stop and the lib tears will keep flowing.

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They are always disappointed when things work against their desire to destroy the United States.

TX_COWDOC said:

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I've been reading Theodore Rex which covers Teddy's presidency. After listening to all it took to get the deal done over 100 years ago, it blows my mind that we were going to give it away.

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So as someone who has lived in Panama 25+ years, Cliff Notes version:

French first tried to build it and failed because De Lesseps thought he could build it just like Suez.

U.S. built it 1903-1013. Incredible engineering achievement.

U.S. controlled Canal Zone right through middle of Panama and Panamanians not allowed to enter.

Over several decades Panananians more and more resented the U.S. dividing their country like a Berlin Wall. The U.S had a LOT of military bases and troops in Panama. Was costly and a growingly hostile local population more and more becoming a pain in the ass.

In 60's finally things got really violent and Panamanian university students jumped the wall. Several were killed by U.S. marines and some marines also killed.

That growing problem and expense, the U.S. wanting to get out of 'Imperial Rule' business…1977 treaty.

Nobody really wants to reset the clock to the 1960s again. Having a Canal surrounded by 4 million angry Panamanians and the U.S. thus having to station and pay for tens of thousands of troops here to protect it. No…not even the Trump administration if you read between the lines.

What was the deal?

Greenland already happened when Denmark raised their expenditures to defend it. Maybe more will come, but that's a win.

Goddammit I love this mother ****er!!!!!!

Pumpkinhead said:

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Resident of Panama here. That tweet is a bit misleading of what the Panama president said. He said they would not renew the Belt & Road initiative with China. Which is China's ambitious infrastructure investments that 120+ countries world wide are participating in. Basically Panama has said they will stop taking China's money if the U.S. invests in the infrastructure instead.

Panama is a very pro-US country. Many of the people in government here have studied at U.S. universities including the current president who went to Tulane for example. They will happily work with the U.S. as long as the U.S. is willing to open the checkbook. U.S. has been asleep here for a couple decades and Chinese money partly filled the void. Not personal. Just business.

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Good, we need to disrupt all BRI initiatives in the western hemisphere.

APHIS AG said:

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Greenland is next!!

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I prefer that. Over Canada but I think Canada is next

When does the agreement expire? Agreement needs termination by March 1, 2024.

infinity ag said:

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Winning winning too much winning.

So much winning that I demand it be made illegal.

Winning will be the death of me.

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It's good to be back on top.
















... as opposed to in front, face down

Fightin_Aggie said:

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APHIS AG said:

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Greenland is next!!

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I prefer that. Over Canada but I think Canada is next

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Making Canada a state would guarantee a republican never gets elected to the oval office ever again.

We just need to make them our b! #ch, and that'll do nicely.

Greenland, on the other hand, is a prize worth taking.

Thanks for the insight.

Excellent post. Going further to your point, that we don't want to "reset that clock" is illustrated by 1989. If ever there was a time where simply re-possessing it was feasible if we wanted, it was when Bush41 took down Noriega. Cold War was winding down so low risk. Pretexts for such have happened in far less chaotic conditions. This supports your view. We just didn't want it.

aTmAg said:

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APHIS AG said:

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Is there anything that Trump cannot do!!!!!

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Get an actual spending cut through congress? (Not a reduction in the projected rate of growth)

If he does this, then I'll become excited.

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Maybe by the end of week 3? And if you can't get excited with the pace of real action of POTUS, dude … that's insane.

Pumpkinhead said:

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TX_COWDOC said:

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I've been reading Theodore Rex which covers Teddy's presidency. After listening to all it took to get the deal done over 100 years ago, it blows my mind that we were going to give it away.

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So as someone who has lived in Panama 25+ years, Cliff Notes version:

French first tried to build it and failed because De Lesseps thought he could build it just like Suez.

U.S. built it 1903-1013. Incredible engineering achievement.

U.S. controlled Canal Zone right through middle of Panama and Panamanians not allowed to enter.

Over several decades Panananians more and more resented the U.S. dividing their country like a Berlin Wall. The U.S had a LOT of military bases and troops in Panama. Was costly and a growingly hostile local population more and more becoming a pain in the ass.

In 60's finally things got really violent and Panamanian university students jumped the wall. Several were killed by U.S. marines and some marines also killed.

That growing problem and expense, the U.S. wanting to get out of 'Imperial Rule' business…1977 treaty.

Nobody really wants to reset the clock to the 1960s again. Having a Canal surrounded by 4 million angry Panamanians and the U.S. thus having to station and pay for tens of thousands of troops here to protect it. No…not even the Trump administration if you read between the lines.

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Actually if we put troops back on the Canal that completely shuts off virtually all illegal immigration flowing from South of that point. It also allows the US to charge for the usage of the Canal that likely more than pays for those troops. Oh, and we have control over the most strategic point in the Western Hemisphere.

Do we need to do it? No, but there are very real benefits if we do so long as we don't mind being a bully. Best solution is Panama cooperates with us and everyone wins no doubt but acting like the US is just any other country in this is how we got in this pickle. The argument that the US just needs to write bigger checks than China doesn't fly and it's frankly insulting. Panama needs to act like a good partner or else we need to remind them we can make them into a territory any time we want because we aren't giving up true control anymore than the UK is giving up Gibraltar.

annie88 said:

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TxAg8908 said:

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Liberals everywhere acting like this is a bad thing

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I think even some of them are actually shocked at how quickly things are getting done after the last four years. The other ones are just fuming. It's also showing how completely incompetent they are … and insane.

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It proves that Joe Biden is a brain dead ****** and that the people who ran the government hate America and want her to fail.

TexasAggie73 said:

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Wonder how big of check Trump had to write$$$$$.

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Beats the **** out of writing huge checks to Ukraine so the Bidens could make off with billions and then get pardoned. Meanwhile, America got nothing but pilfered.

Pumpkinhead said:

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TX_COWDOC said:

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I've been reading Theodore Rex which covers Teddy's presidency. After listening to all it took to get the deal done over 100 years ago, it blows my mind that we were going to give it away.

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So as someone who has lived in Panama 25+ years, Cliff Notes version:

French first tried to build it and failed because De Lesseps thought he could build it just like Suez.

U.S. built it 1903-1013. Incredible engineering achievement.

U.S. controlled Canal Zone right through middle of Panama and Panamanians not allowed to enter.

Over several decades Panananians more and more resented the U.S. dividing their country like a Berlin Wall. The U.S had a LOT of military bases and troops in Panama. Was costly and a growingly hostile local population more and more becoming a pain in the ass.

In 60's finally things got really violent and Panamanian university students jumped the wall. Several were killed by U.S. marines and some marines also killed.

That growing problem and expense, the U.S. wanting to get out of 'Imperial Rule' business…1977 treaty.

Nobody really wants to reset the clock to the 1960s again. Having a Canal surrounded by 4 million angry Panamanians and the U.S. thus having to station and pay for tens of thousands of troops here to protect it. No…not even the Trump administration if you read between the lines.

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Don't forget the part between the French and 1903 where the US basically helped Panama become a country instead of just being part of Colombia.

The Panama Canal is central to Panama's cultural identity. The Panama Canal's revenues fund Panama's Social Security system. It is a prosperous and stable country that has become an economic hub of Central America. A large number of corporations have their region HQs here. Some parts of Panama City feels like a Latin America Miami. The Panamanians have done an excellent job operating the Panama Canal itself

The U.S. military already has close cooperation with the Panamanians. I know folks at the Embassy. Over the years when I go to my local gym, I have often run into U.S. special forces guys working out while in-country here. Oh, on the contrary, you know how many Chinese soldiers I have ever run into at the gym? Exactly zero.

Taking back the Canal is a non-negotiable topic to the Panamanians. Could the U.S. militarily do it? Sure. But then you break this country, you own it. It would wreck and destabilize the United State's best success story and closest ally in the region.

You wreck the country, then The local population becomes hostile. The U.S. would become a pariah in Latin America at a huge cost for very little gain over what they already have. You'd basically make China look like the 'good guys' and turn everyone in that direction for support.

Anybody who has actually recently visited Panama and knows this place would understand literally physically 'taking back' the Canal would be a very stupid adventure. That horse left the barn a long time ago. I can tell you that few here are worrying about U.S. troops ever actually showing up and asking for the keys to the Canal back.

That is just political grenade throwing and posturing. What this is really about is concerns RE China's Belt & Road initiative and a growing economic influence in the region. A bit about complaints with fees. And Panama will be more than willing to work with the U.S. in that regard if the U.S. opens the checkbook. The infrastructure projects are going to happen one way or another. Somebody has to get the contracts to run the ports. Build roads and bridges and train railways. 'Opening the check book' isn't insulting. It is doing business and the U.S. either steps up to the plate more in that regard or continues letting other interested parties (Chinese companies, cough, cough) fill that void.
.

Ag with kids said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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TX_COWDOC said:

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I've been reading Theodore Rex which covers Teddy's presidency. After listening to all it took to get the deal done over 100 years ago, it blows my mind that we were going to give it away.

---

So as someone who has lived in Panama 25+ years, Cliff Notes version:

French first tried to build it and failed because De Lesseps thought he could build it just like Suez.

U.S. built it 1903-1013. Incredible engineering achievement.

U.S. controlled Canal Zone right through middle of Panama and Panamanians not allowed to enter.

Over several decades Panananians more and more resented the U.S. dividing their country like a Berlin Wall. The U.S had a LOT of military bases and troops in Panama. Was costly and a growingly hostile local population more and more becoming a pain in the ass.

In 60's finally things got really violent and Panamanian university students jumped the wall. Several were killed by U.S. marines and some marines also killed.

That growing problem and expense, the U.S. wanting to get out of 'Imperial Rule' business…1977 treaty.

Nobody really wants to reset the clock to the 1960s again. Having a Canal surrounded by 4 million angry Panamanians and the U.S. thus having to station and pay for tens of thousands of troops here to protect it. No…not even the Trump administration if you read between the lines.

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Don't forget the part between the French and 1903 where the US basically helped Panama become a country instead of just being part of Colombia.

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Correct. Colombia was driving a hard bargain at the negotiating table and Panamanians were willing to give the U.S. anything they wanted (like a huge strip of land right through the middle of their country) in exchange for U.S. helping them get independence. And all good for awhile. Panama Canal was built and successful, but then over the subsequent decades the issues with Panamanians gradually grew per my previous post.

Pumpkinhead said:

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Resident of Panama here. That tweet is a bit misleading of what the Panama president said. He said they would not renew the Belt & Road initiative with China. Which is China's ambitious infrastructure investments that 120+ countries world wide are participating in. Basically Panama has said they will stop taking China's money if the U.S. invests in the infrastructure instead.

Panama is a very pro-US country. Many of the people in government here have studied at U.S. universities including the current president who went to Tulane for example. They will happily work with the U.S. as long as the U.S. is willing to open the checkbook. U.S. has been asleep here for a couple decades and Chinese money partly filled the void. Not personal. Just business.

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Well said and I agree.
Spitballing here...

• After the fall of the Berlin Wall and ultimately the USSR it did leave a power vacuum in the world. Russia was licking it's wounds and America was likely caught catching our breath or resting on laurels at worst.
• GHWB dealt with Iraq v. Kuwait for a year or so but (as I recall -- I was 10 in 1991) not a whole lot else.
• Clinton was a foreign policy weakling, and had the US cut and run at the first sign of trouble. Plus the US was riding the Dot.com boom so everyone at home was fat and happy with a soaring stock market and ridiculously easy money coming from the banks.
• GWB likely was distracted by all of the events following 9/11

Meanwhile China was not only buying our debt but (I'm presuming, lying in wait and planning and scheming

Quick Wiki search shows China began their Belt and Road Initiate in 2013... Wait. 2013? One year before Hunter joined the board with Burisma? It was December of 2013 that Hunter tagged along with Joe to China...

https://nypost.com/article/hunter-biden-china-timeline-business-ties/

Quote:

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December 2013

When Chinese president Xi Jinping alarmed the rest of Asia with an aggressive expansion of his military claims over the East China Sea, Vice President Biden was dispatched to Beijing to try to de-escalate tensions. The second son tagged along on Air Force Two. While a somber and subdued Joe Biden held a marathon five-hour meeting with Xi, Hunter got together with Jonathan Li in what handlers at the time described as a social visit. The son even arranged for a handshake between Li and his father at the hotel of the American delegation troubling some of the vice president's advisors, according to the New Yorker. Ten days later, the Chinese business license for Bohai Harvest the company that Hunter Biden and Devon Archer had been trying to launch for more than a year was approved.

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The media will be spinning this as something bad. It's what they do. It doesn't matter how many negotiations Trump wins or how many campaign promises he fulfills, he's the devil in their eyes.

This sums it up:

Doesn't matter. Media will still complain that trump isn't being nice to other countries and it'll hurt us in the end. Bet on it.

Kenneth_2003 said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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Resident of Panama here. That tweet is a bit misleading of what the Panama president said. He said they would not renew the Belt & Road initiative with China. Which is China's ambitious infrastructure investments that 120+ countries world wide are participating in. Basically Panama has said they will stop taking China's money if the U.S. invests in the infrastructure instead.

Panama is a very pro-US country. Many of the people in government here have studied at U.S. universities including the current president who went to Tulane for example. They will happily work with the U.S. as long as the U.S. is willing to open the checkbook. U.S. has been asleep here for a couple decades and Chinese money partly filled the void. Not personal. Just business.

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Well said and I agree.
Spitballing here...

• After the fall of the Berlin Wall and ultimately the USSR it did leave a power vacuum in the world. Russia was licking it's wounds and America was likely caught catching our breath or resting on laurels at worst.
• GHWB dealt with Iraq v. Kuwait for a year or so but (as I recall -- I was 10 in 1991) not a whole lot else.
• Clinton was a foreign policy weakling, and had the US cut and run at the first sign of trouble. Plus the US was riding the Dot.com boom so everyone at home was fat and happy with a soaring stock market and ridiculously easy money coming from the banks.
• GWB likely was distracted by all of the events following 9/11

Meanwhile China was not only buying our debt but (I'm presuming, lying in wait and planning and scheming

Quick Wiki search shows China began their Belt and Road Initiate in 2013... Wait. 2013? One year before Hunter joined the board with Burisma? It was December of 2013 that Hunter tagged along with Joe to China...

https://nypost.com/article/hunter-biden-china-timeline-business-ties/

Quote:

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December 2013

When Chinese president Xi Jinping alarmed the rest of Asia with an aggressive expansion of his military claims over the East China Sea, Vice President Biden was dispatched to Beijing to try to de-escalate tensions. The second son tagged along on Air Force Two. While a somber and subdued Joe Biden held a marathon five-hour meeting with Xi, Hunter got together with Jonathan Li in what handlers at the time described as a social visit. The son even arranged for a handshake between Li and his father at the hotel of the American delegation troubling some of the vice president's advisors, according to the New Yorker. Ten days later, the Chinese business license for Bohai Harvest the company that Hunter Biden and Devon Archer had been trying to launch for more than a year was approved.

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That was the period of the "Peace Dividend" where the military was drawn down from it peak. Reagan's last defense budget was the same amount as Clinton's - so figure after 12 years it was static so the military somewhat atrophied.