jt16 said:

---

DrEvazanPhD said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Thats not what this means.

---

Explain then.

---

Just because they were left optional means they were inappropriate. The vast majority are most likely real payments, just not coded properly

---

Agreed with this. I do believe it shows how incompetent or lazy the workers are

There was a podcast last week that talked about how people would complain when payments were missed, but no one ever complained about money they didn't request. So employees at Fed Gov offices are inclined to approve things to avoid conflict and extra paperwork.

Jeeper79 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Thats not what this means.

---

Well, if it can't be traced, how do you know? Trust? I don't trust anyone that much, especially the government.
Carry on.

JB99 said:

---

DrEvazanPhD said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Thats not what this means.

---

Explain then.

---

I think he's saying it doesn't mean fraud was likely, however, proving fraud without traceability of payments would be damn hard to do.

---

Maybe why it was optional.

BusterAg said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

DrEvazanPhD said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Thats not what this means.

---

Explain then.

---

It means we have a flawed accounting system. One that should be fixed. But that's fundamentally different from outright fraud.

---

Musk says he estimates about 20% of the $4.7 trillion is fraud, about $1 trillion.

That is more than the 2025 projected deficit.

---

So the projected deficit can be nullified for this year sounds like.

Logos Stick said:

---

Here is what Elon thinks the ratio is on incompetence and fraud:

My rough estimate is that it’s ~80% lack of competence/caring and ~20% fraud.

But that’s still a lot of fraud! https://t.co/IE8NzutIxV

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) February 17, 2025

---

I don't share Elon's optimism

JB99 said:

---

DrEvazanPhD said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Thats not what this means.

---

Explain then.

---

I think he's saying it doesn't mean fraud was likely, however, proving fraud without traceability of payments would be damn hard to do.

---

Which is why we need to have laws that say that weak internal fraud controls in US agencies should be punishable by jailtime, whether you can prove fraud or not.

If every publicly traded company has to follow current laws, in place, that say the CEO and CFO will go to jail if internal fraud controls are weak, federal agency heads should be held under the same scrutiny.

People at the top start to give a damn about their job when negligence about fraud is a jail-time offense.

MagnumLoad said:

---

Logos Stick said:

---

Here is what Elon thinks the ratio is on incompetence and fraud:

My rough estimate is that it’s ~80% lack of competence/caring and ~20% fraud.

But that’s still a lot of fraud! https://t.co/IE8NzutIxV

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) February 17, 2025

---

I don't share Elon's optimism

---

It's 100% fraud

jt16 said:

---

DrEvazanPhD said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Thats not what this means.

---

Explain then.

---

Just because they were left optional means they were inappropriate. The vast majority are most likely real payments, just not coded properly

---

No way to know that.

DannyDuberstein said:

---

What is particularly infuriating is that they would put executives in jail for such an egregious lack of internal controls and fraud

---

We need to emulate North Korea where they put a bullet in the head of people who do this bad of a job.

tysker said:

---

Fraud requires intent.
In my world of AML and stock market manipulation, there is so many actors who don't appreciate their actions as manipulative or are willing participants so they can catch a deal, or pull one over on 'the man.'

The difference between being incompetent, a foolish follower, and a slimy POS can become very hard to distinguish

---

And I don't.

4 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Willing to bet that 4/5ths of our debt has been fraud and is sitting in the accounts of politicians, bureaucrats, and friendly corporations/NGOs.

It's damn near time to water the tree of liberty again.

---

We "sort of " did on Nov 5. A genuine Guy Fa wkes moment in history, but by the ballot as our system was designed to implement "revolutions." In fact, if the MSM doesn't back off its constant attempts to undermine the clear mandate and drop its defense of massive corruption and enabling the lawfare, they greatly risk the "tree of liberty" type after Trump if Trump is not allowed to do the needed reforms and clean up within the process. Trump winning by a mandate with some liberal support is actually the last throw of the public trying to do things "the correct way". It should prevail.

No, the deficit will grow because Trump wants tax cuts for his billionaire cabinet members and inauguration committee friends. Those tax cuts will increase the deficit by eleventy-trillion and the only thing left to do will be to cut granny's healthcare, make students starve at school, and to sell off our national park land.

I learned this by following Bernie Sanders and Pocahontas on twitter. Then I ignore people's like Lafler and Kudlow and their hard data showing the Trump cuts INCREASED ax revenues. We must trust Bernie and the squaw and their friends at the CBO.

In all seriousness, I thought the deficit is closer to 2 trillion, but I also think DOGE is ahead of schedule so there is potential to get the ship righted, certainly before the midterms.

Jeeper79 said:

---

DrEvazanPhD said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Thats not what this means.

---

Explain then.

---

It means we have a flawed accounting system. One that should be fixed. But that's fundamentally different from outright fraud.

---

Although outright fraud often, if not always, uses such a method.

flown-the-coop said:

---

If the requirement for the classification was changed at some point, that would be interesting and may indicate a higher level fraud.

I would also imagine procedure required the information be inputted even if the system did not require it. That would also indicate gross incompetence or outright fraud.

It would not surprise me that at some point and in the interest of pushing money out, they may have decided to make the tag optional, and then procedure went awry.

At some point, the gross incompetence is fraudulent in itself.

Finally, congressional oversight bears much responsibility here, on both sides of the aisle. What is the point of all their committees and hearings if not to ask about the money they authorized being spent?

If a congress critter did not follow-up on how the dollars of the budgets they passed being spent, they should have to resign immediately and be barred from public office.

---

Departments and agencies in the bureaucracy have consistently refused to provide requested documents and information to congressional oversight committees. Gee, I wonder why?

All starts to come together don't it. In particular why the congress critters only speak about getting the information but never actually use their powers to get it.

Nothing but an endless game of grift to them. Until
Trump. And Trump needed an assist by Elon to overcome the headwinds and start peeling back the bullkaka.

MagnumLoad said:

---

flown-the-coop said:

---

If the requirement for the classification was changed at some point, that would be interesting and may indicate a higher level fraud.

I would also imagine procedure required the information be inputted even if the system did not require it. That would also indicate gross incompetence or outright fraud.

It would not surprise me that at some point and in the interest of pushing money out, they may have decided to make the tag optional, and then procedure went awry.

At some point, the gross incompetence is fraudulent in itself.

Finally, congressional oversight bears much responsibility here, on both sides of the aisle. What is the point of all their committees and hearings if not to ask about the money they authorized being spent?

If a congress critter did not follow-up on how the dollars of the budgets they passed being spent, they should have to resign immediately and be barred from public office.

---

Departments and agencies in the bureaucracy have consistently refused to provide requested documents and information to congressional oversight committees. Gee, I wonder why?

---

Wonder why that was tolerated. Should have resulted in firing of the top five every time. You might start getting compliance then. Or Congress could simply abolish said office. But the first probably would do it.

Rockdoc said:

---

Wait, are you saying there is no fraud?

---

No. There's almost certainly some.

Ol_Ag_02 said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Thats not what this means.

---

So you're just going to go with "it's gross negligence and incompetence" as opposed to fraud every single time. I mean, what's the end goal of yours? If you're just trying to prove to us that government employees are mostly incapable of exhibiting basic job skills and intelligence, then we already know that. No one here needs convincing.

---

But but but it was just millions of fat fingered entries. Not Fraud!!

SMH.

Ag87H2O said:

---

It's infuriating that something so basic as coding a check is seen as groundbreaking for the federal government.

No private citizen or business would get away with it without getting hammered by the IRS. Hell, you couldn't even get a CPA that would sign off on a return.

Bureaucrats need to do prison time over this one. It was a purposeful policy to cover WFA.

---

Can't remember the number off the top of my head, but wasn't the obamacare website tens of millions of dollars to set up and still didn't work correctly for months.
The government, by it's very nature, will never be efficient without complete overhauling.

Hoyt Ag said:

---

Ol_Ag_02 said:

---

Jeeper79 said:

---

Tailgate88 said:

---

I knew it was bad. But holy crap. 4.7 TRILLION dollars of likely fraud.

SMH

---

Thats not what this means.

---

So you're just going to go with "it's gross negligence and incompetence" as opposed to fraud every single time. I mean, what's the end goal of yours? If you're just trying to prove to us that government employees are mostly incapable of exhibiting basic job skills and intelligence, then we already know that. No one here needs convincing.

---

But but but it was just millions of fat fingered entries. Not Fraud!!

SMH.

---

Time will tell. Not that it matters. Everyone claiming it's all fraud will just move the goalposts when it's found that it's only some fraud. Which of course is still bad, but it's not what some here are claiming.

These poor government workers were just trying to ensure that none of those payments got classified as legal expenses (even if they were paying lawyers), thereby resulting in the poor government workers receiving 34 felonies.

ts5641 said:

---

Ag87H2O said:

---

It's infuriating that something so basic as coding a check is seen as groundbreaking for the federal government.

No private citizen or business would get away with it without getting hammered by the IRS. Hell, you couldn't even get a CPA that would sign off on a return.

Bureaucrats need to do prison time over this one. It was a purposeful policy to cover WFA.

---

Can't remember the number off the top of my head, but wasn't the obamacare website tens of millions of dollars to set up and still didn't work correctly for months.
The government, by it's very nature, will never be efficient without complete overhauling.

---

Try $2 BILLION.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-24/obamacare-website-costs-exceed-2-billion-study-finds

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/obamacare-website-costs-balloon-2-204300250.html

Private companies have to be efficient because their shareholders will take their money somewhere else. They're heavily scrutinized. They make quarterly reports that get dissected and they'll be punished if they don't continually improve upon the last report. More revenue. More efficiency. More controls. More investment.

When the government spends money like that, who's ever going behind to make sure it's being spent well? The people spending the money are already on to spending it on something else, and the public has less clarity on how their tax dollars are being used.

The system is set up for failure. How can we expect career government employees to be beholden to elected officials and still be concerned about doing a good job?

We need recourse similar to private business when this sort of thing happens. Fixing the mistakes is t good enough. We need to foster an environment where these mistakes aren't allowed to happen.

I believe there is a lot of fraud involved with leaving the "for" field blank. However, there is also a laziness factor. I had plenty of bookkeeping clients who left that field blank for recurring payments for telephone and utility bills. It was just assumed I would understand. Some of this may be similar thinking.

Jeeper79 said:

---

Private companies have to be efficient because their shareholders will take their money somewhere else. They're heavily scrutinized. They make quarterly reports that get dissected and they'll be punished if they don't continually improve upon the last report. More revenue. More efficiency. More controls. More investment.

---

Here is the thing. There is much less accounting fraud today than there was in the 1990's. You know why?

Because SARBOX was pretty effective. The CEO, CFO, and auditor of a company can go to jail, not because there was fraud in their company, but only because they failed to enact the correct "internal controls" to prevent fraud. They have to attest that their accounting environment is up to industry standards to prevent fraud when they sign every quarterly report.

We need this accountability in the federal government. Agency heads should go to jail just for things like SSN databases with 200 year old records. Or treasury department payment systems with important accounting fields blank.

Thanks to SARBOX, if Facebook did something like this, just having a terrible database related to payments Zuckerberg would be in handcuffs.

If we bring personal responsibility to DC through threat of go-to-jail at gunpoint, a lot of this waste would go away, because you are just one lost election away from prison time when the next head guy of your administration decides to try and put you in jail.

It enables outright fraud and that's precisely why it wasn't fixed.

halfastros81 said:

---

It enables outright fraud and that's precisely why it wasn't fixed.

---

Time will tell. That's all I can say.

Quote:

---

It is operating at Muskermensch speed.

---

Quality typing

4.7 T

What happens when our 2026 annual expenditure is 900B? We wake up in 2027 and what?