Teslag said:

---

The problem for the pro Russia side as far as Zelenskyy stepping down is that he would probably be replaced by Gen Zaluzhny, who is just as anti Russia as anyone and beloved by Ukrainians. He's the only one that polls ahead of Zelenskyy.

---

Robert E. Lee knew when it was time to lay down the arms and sue for peace even though his troops would have followed him to hell and back.

Fighting is over, need someone to help Trump negotiate the best deal possible for what remains of Ukraine.

No one is happy about it, but Americans are fed up and don't want this continue . America decides when it's over, not Russia, not Europe, and certainly not Ukraine,

We should move on and start posting maps of what the new border will look like.

Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson, and Crimea are going to be a part of Russia.

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

We should move on and start posting maps of what the new border will look like.

Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson, and Crimea are going to be a part of Russia.

---

Somewhere between that and Medvedev's/this other one. If Trump/Musk turn off the spigot now the one on the right below might make more sense before it's over. I think Medvedev's is silly but the Russians will point to it as their starting point, imho.

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

All this and not a single finger pointed at Putin

nortex97 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

We should move on and start posting maps of what the new border will look like.

Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson, and Crimea are going to be a part of Russia.

---

Somewhere between that and Medvedev's/this other one. If Trump/Musk turn off the spigot now the one on the right below might make more sense before it's over. I think Medvedev's is silly but the Russians will point to it as their starting point, imho.

---

So now you have Russia annexing extremely anti-Russian areas well west of the Dnipro?

Keep telling us this isn't a land grab. Wow.

PA24 said:

---

Trump ran on ending the war in Ukraine.

He considered Zelensky a con man, claimed every time he came to town he dragged out billions. Everyone knew his stance. In fact, he claimed he would end it before January 20th.
I think a deal will be made before March 4th.
Zelensky is done, needs to resign, he doesn't have the US backing any longer. Just a matter of time before others join Trump.

Trump is our President and the majority of Americans want the war with Ukraine over.

---

A lot of Americans voted for Trump because they voted against Kamala. Don't conflate voting for Trump with supporting every policy position he has or as popular support for abandoning Ukraine. Taking election results as a mandate for an entire platform is what Democrats did with Obama, and they learned the hard way that wasn't a good idea when Trump was elected.

Europe probably isn't going to side with Trump. I could easily see them continuing to support Ukraine for 3 reasons:

1) It's in their long term best interest to have a pro-European Ukraine. It can mean more energy independence from Russia and an overall stronger Europe.

2) It's a **** you to Trump. If Trump is going to take an America First position regarding Europe, it makes a lot of sense for Europe to take a Europe First approach back. Trump campaigned on stopping the war, but if he can't because Europe decides to just do their own thing, it makes him look impotent. Pretty sure nothing would rustle his jimmies more than that.

3) Russia is Europe's direct problem. Trump may not care about what Russia is likely to do in the future regarding Europe, but Europe certainly does. Russia being drained militarily and economically is in Europe's best interest because it means regional stability and an inability for Russia to move on its neighbors. It also means instability within Russia, which means Putin and Russia's oligarchs and intelligence services will have to focus on their own internal politics instead of Europe's. Russia, especially under Putin, has long engaged in a strategy of sowing political discord in the US and Europe as a means of distraction and furthering its own influence, and it wouldn't shock me to see Europe want to turn the tables.

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

EOT. Post of the day!

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

I think you're looking at a near term future where Europe continues to sanction Russia and support Ukraine while the US ends sanctions and substantially increases financial ties with Russia to curry favor in order to attempt to isolate China.

Unfortunately, the success of that strategy hinges on Russia not flipping and shanking us in the ass. Not sure I feel great about the odds of that gamble but I guess we'll find out one way or another.

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

It also hinges on Russia providing us with exports worth a *****

rgag12 said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

---

How does a ceasefire allow those in occupied lands to hold free and fair Ukrainian government elections?

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

---

How does a ceasefire allow those in occupied lands to hold free and fair Ukrainian government elections?

---

80-90% of the occupied lands aren't going back to Ukraine anyway. No need to live in fantasy land.

Teslag said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

All this and not a single finger pointed at Putin

---

Read my second sentence...... I have repeatedly acknowledge that Putin is no hero and is a tyrant in his own regard.

I don't like the invasion AT ALL...... but I also understand what precipitated it and have carefully studied and read the desires of the Eastern 1/3 of the inhabitants of Ukraine...... they want to be Russian because there is zero confidence in the Kiev regime.

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

---

How does a ceasefire allow those in occupied lands to hold free and fair Ukrainian government elections?

---

80-90% of the occupied lands aren't going back to Ukraine anyway. No need to live in fantasy land.

---

I agree, but that needs to be formalized and boundaries drawn prior to elections in areas affected.

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

---

How does a ceasefire allow those in occupied lands to hold free and fair Ukrainian government elections?

---

80-90% of the occupied lands aren't going back to Ukraine anyway. No need to live in fantasy land.

---

I agree, but that needs to be formalized and boundaries drawn prior to elections in areas affected.

---

Easy hurdle to clear in ceasefire agreements

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

Teslag said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

All this and not a single finger pointed at Putin

---

Read my second sentence...... I have repeatedly acknowledge that Putin is no hero and is a tyrant in his own regard.

I don't like the invasion AT ALL...... but I also understand what precipitated it and have carefully studied and read the desires of the Eastern 1/3 of the inhabitants of Ukraine...... they want to be Russian because there is zero confidence in the Kiev regime.

---

It is far less than the eastern 1/3 of Ukraine. Not even close.

I will never understand why we as Americans are supposed to care more about Ukraine than the vast majority of European countries do. I especially don't understand why we should be spending so much in comparison.

It is not our battle. If Europe and other allies want us to pitch in a proportional amount to what they are paying then I don't see a problem with that.but that is clearly not what has been happening the last several years with us being their piggy bank.

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

---

How does a ceasefire allow those in occupied lands to hold free and fair Ukrainian government elections?

---

80-90% of the occupied lands aren't going back to Ukraine anyway. No need to live in fantasy land.

---

I agree, but that needs to be formalized and boundaries drawn prior to elections in areas affected.

---

Easy hurdle to clear in ceasefire agreements

---

Agreed as well, but many on the pro-Russia side say Zelenskyy should hold elections prior to a deal. So here we are….

Teslag said:

---

It also hinges on Russia providing us with exports worth a *****

---

I don't think we GAF. Russia knows that our China strategy hinges on them. And we know they know. We have to kiss their ass, not the other way around. Once we go down this road the administration isn't doubling back and they know it. We're doing Russia a solid today and hoping they reciprocate down the line.

After we tell NATO and the euros to get bent we have to stay valuable to them or they hang us out to dry with China and we're left with our ass out in the wind. If we decide to do this then we have no choice but to be all in.

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

The people in the Eastern areas were not able to vote because of conflict that was ongoing before the official Russian invasion.

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

---

How does a ceasefire allow those in occupied lands to hold free and fair Ukrainian government elections?

---

80-90% of the occupied lands aren't going back to Ukraine anyway. No need to live in fantasy land.

---

I agree, but that needs to be formalized and boundaries drawn prior to elections in areas affected.

---

Easy hurdle to clear in ceasefire agreements

---

Agreed as well, but many on the pro-Russia side say Zelenskyy should hold elections prior to a deal. So here we are….

---

Criticism of Zelensky does not mean support of Russia. I am anti-corruption and anti-war. And in Ukraine and Russia - they go hand in hand.

Teslag said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

Teslag said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

All this and not a single finger pointed at Putin

---

Read my second sentence...... I have repeatedly acknowledge that Putin is no hero and is a tyrant in his own regard.

I don't like the invasion AT ALL...... but I also understand what precipitated it and have carefully studied and read the desires of the Eastern 1/3 of the inhabitants of Ukraine...... they want to be Russian because there is zero confidence in the Kiev regime.

---

It is far less than the eastern 1/3 of Ukraine. Not even close.

---

If you want to nitpick an exact portion of Ukraine's geographic pie.... by all means..... do so........1/4 work for you?

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

---

How does a ceasefire allow those in occupied lands to hold free and fair Ukrainian government elections?

---

80-90% of the occupied lands aren't going back to Ukraine anyway. No need to live in fantasy land.

---

I agree, but that needs to be formalized and boundaries drawn prior to elections in areas affected.

---

Easy hurdle to clear in ceasefire agreements

---

Agreed as well, but many on the pro-Russia side say Zelenskyy should hold elections prior to a deal. So here we are….

---

I think Russia and America are pushing Ukraine to agree to a ceasefire, an election, then a treaty. More than likely an election will not take place in the occupied areas, but that's just a guess. That is a reality that Ukraine will have to realize in order to do the ceasefire. The treaty will then just formalize the realities.

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheEternalOptimist said:

---

I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

---

Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

---

How does a ceasefire allow those in occupied lands to hold free and fair Ukrainian government elections?

---

80-90% of the occupied lands aren't going back to Ukraine anyway. No need to live in fantasy land.

---

I agree, but that needs to be formalized and boundaries drawn prior to elections in areas affected.

---

Easy hurdle to clear in ceasefire agreements

---

Agreed as well, but many on the pro-Russia side say Zelenskyy should hold elections prior to a deal. So here we are….

---

Criticism of Zelensky does not mean support of Russia. I am anti-corruption and anti-war. And in Ukraine and Russia - they go hand in hand.

---

You guys don't get to come on here and call people "warmongers", "Uke fanbois", etc and then get upset when you get called names as well. Especially when you quite literally echo Russian talking points and justify their unprovoked invasion.

IDaggie06 said:

---

I will never understand why we as Americans are supposed to care more about Ukraine than the vast majority of European countries do. I especially don't understand why we should be spending so much in comparison.

It is not our battle. If Europe and other allies want us to pitch in a proportional amount to what they are paying then I don't see a problem with that.but that is clearly not what has been happening the last several years with us being their piggy bank.

---

Sure it's not our boots on the ground battle, but being top dog in the world means when our alliances are threatened (and they are) we can't just sit back and watch.

The money that we have spent (on ourselves mostly) is such a small, minuscule price (of a nearly trillion dollar budget we already set aside for defense) to keep one of our biggest adversaries from land grabbing and increasing in strength - all the while seeing how our old weapons absolutely expose their military.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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Teslag said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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Teslag said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

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All this and not a single finger pointed at Putin

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Read my second sentence...... I have repeatedly acknowledge that Putin is no hero and is a tyrant in his own regard.

I don't like the invasion AT ALL...... but I also understand what precipitated it and have carefully studied and read the desires of the Eastern 1/3 of the inhabitants of Ukraine...... they want to be Russian because there is zero confidence in the Kiev regime.

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It is far less than the eastern 1/3 of Ukraine. Not even close.

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If you want to nitpick an exact portion of Ukraine's geographic pie.... by all means..... do so........1/4 work for you?

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Maybe 1/8, if that. You don't even have complete Russian ethnicity in Russia's claimed annexed lands.

Rossticus said:

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Teslag said:

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It also hinges on Russia providing us with exports worth a *****

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I don't think we GAF. Russia knows that our China strategy hinges on them. And we know they know. We have to kiss their ass, not the other way around. Once we go down this road the administration isn't doubling back and they know it. We're doing Russia a solid today and hoping they reciprocate down the line.

After we tell NATO and the euros to get bent we have to stay valuable to them or they hang us out to dry with China and we're left with our ass out in the wind. If we decide to do this then we have no choice but to be all in.

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Wait, so now we are scared the Russians will sell us out to China? I thought Russia could not even mount the weakest of offenses against the Ukes, which is why we had to send them billions after billions.

Now we are going to pretend we need to cozy up to Russia or we will be China's *****? China, the great country that has never successfully invaded a foreign land and whose might and bravado is made out of rice cakes and bat vomit?

We can tell the whole world to get bent and no one is going to **** with us unless we give them permission.

Problem is Biden gave them permission for 4 years. Trump is just letting them know we are no longer their doormat to scrape their globalist commie boots on, whether they be Chicoms, Ruscoms, or Euro trach socialists.

America first. That is the strategy. We need no one else to accomplish that.

Teslag said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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Teslag said:

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rgag12 said:

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Teslag said:

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rgag12 said:

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Teslag said:

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rgag12 said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

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How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

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Ok, then put into effect a ceasefire and hold another election.

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How does a ceasefire allow those in occupied lands to hold free and fair Ukrainian government elections?

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80-90% of the occupied lands aren't going back to Ukraine anyway. No need to live in fantasy land.

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I agree, but that needs to be formalized and boundaries drawn prior to elections in areas affected.

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Easy hurdle to clear in ceasefire agreements

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Agreed as well, but many on the pro-Russia side say Zelenskyy should hold elections prior to a deal. So here we are….

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Criticism of Zelensky does not mean support of Russia. I am anti-corruption and anti-war. And in Ukraine and Russia - they go hand in hand.

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You guys don't get to come on here and call people "warmongers", "Uke fanbois", etc and then get upset when you get called names as well. Especially when you quite literally echo Russian talking points and justify their unprovoked invasion.

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I make independent analysis of the situation taking all information into account. Yep - Russia spouts off loads of propaganda. And so does Ukraine. Any amount of criticism directed at the Kiev regime that is even slightly in agreement with Moscow's claims automatically makes all my points 'Russian Propaganda' ?

Do you know the region well at all? Do you have family and friends families divided by this conflict and/or caught up in the middle of it on both sides like I do?

Sift through the nonsense and follow the historical timeline from just before the 2014 "Euromaiden" (which was a coup) to today. Have you ever acknowledged the Kiev government and their Azov mercenaries war crimes against majority ethnic Russian civilians in the East that were ongoing long before Russia invaded?

The EU/NATO wanted a conflict. From the get go. They underestimated just how far Russia was willing to go. The reality of the Russian victory in this war is starting to become apparent. Years and years of western media claiming 'Russia is losing' is about to officially be revealed for all to see as a charade that was meant to keep the arms and $$$ flowing into Ukraine. It was also meant, secondarily, to prop up covering for corrupt Americans on the take (like Biden, Chalupa, Nuland, etc etc)

It's not about the Russian army. It's Russian resources, and their navy to a lesser extent should we end up fighting China on their doorstep. Not to mention that China is already establishing a significant economic foothold in South America (to include naval ports) that will take quite a bit of maneuvering to negate.

Now, if we can manage to become independent of our need for Taiwan to exist in sufficiently short order, then one huge element of the equation is no longer of concern and I'd overall agree with your statement. And from what I've seen Trump is making progress on that front.

ReturnOfTheAg said:

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IDaggie06 said:

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I will never understand why we as Americans are supposed to care more about Ukraine than the vast majority of European countries do. I especially don't understand why we should be spending so much in comparison.

It is not our battle. If Europe and other allies want us to pitch in a proportional amount to what they are paying then I don't see a problem with that.but that is clearly not what has been happening the last several years with us being their piggy bank.

---

Sure it's not our boots on the ground battle, but being top dog in the world means when our alliances are threatened (and they are) we can't just sit back and watch.

The money that we have spent (on ourselves mostly) is such a small, minuscule price (of a nearly trillion dollar budget we already set aside for defense) to keep one of our biggest adversaries from land grabbing and increasing in strength - all the while seeing how our old weapons absolutely expose their military.

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So lets deliberately expend human capital so we can see how good our old weapons work.

This is soul less exploitation on another level......

TheEternalOptimist said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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TheEternalOptimist said:

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I have been right about Ukraine/Russia for years in here.....

.Zelensky is no less a tyrant than Putin. He doesn't hold elections and is unpopular with the people.

We (the West) broke Ukraine in 2014. We are now at least a half million deaths so far in this war - perhaps far more depending on what estimates you want to believe.

All for what? To keep people in Eastern Ukraine who DO NOT WANT TO BE IN UKRAINE ANYMORE....... because the last time they had a legit election..... their President was overthrown by an Obama/Merkel coup.

This whole thing has been shameful. And that is before the whole Biden corruption layer is even discussed.

Victoria Nuland, Alexandra Chalupa, and Hunter Biden should all be in jail for their part in all this.

Look up Alexandra Chalupa in particular -- the DNC's Ukrainian handler and fixer.... involved in the middle of every controversy involving Ukraine, America, and Russia there.

---

How was the 2019 election not legitimate? You know, the one where 74% of the country voted for a guy that pushed out the guy you're saying the West supposedly installed with a coup?

You can't in good faith call Zelensky a tyrant for not having elections you wouldn't recognize as legitimate anyway.

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The people in the Eastern areas were not able to vote because of conflict that was ongoing before the official Russian invasion.

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Wait... So the 2019 election wasn't legitimate because the people in areas occupied by Russian backed separatists couldn't vote, but Zelensky is a tyrant for not having elections in which people in Russian occupied areas can't vote? Holy hypocrisy, Batman!

An election where not everyone can vote because of a Russian occupation isn't legitimate, but Ukraine must hold elections where not everyone can vote because of a Russian occupation to maintain legitimacy. Well, which one is it? Can you guys make up your minds and pick a coherent and consistent position?

flown-the-coop said:

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Rossticus said:

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Teslag said:

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It also hinges on Russia providing us with exports worth a *****

---

I don't think we GAF. Russia knows that our China strategy hinges on them. And we know they know. We have to kiss their ass, not the other way around. Once we go down this road the administration isn't doubling back and they know it. We're doing Russia a solid today and hoping they reciprocate down the line.

After we tell NATO and the euros to get bent we have to stay valuable to them or they hang us out to dry with China and we're left with our ass out in the wind. If we decide to do this then we have no choice but to be all in.

---

Wait, so now we are scared the Russians will sell us out to China? I thought Russia could not even mount the weakest of offenses against the Ukes, which is why we had to send them billions after billions.

Now we are going to pretend we need to cozy up to Russia or we will be China's *****? China, the great country that has never successfully invaded a foreign land and whose might and bravado is made out of rice cakes and bat vomit?

We can tell the whole world to get bent and no one is going to **** with us unless we give them permission.

Problem is Biden gave them permission for 4 years. Trump is just letting them know we are no longer their doormat to scrape their globalist commie boots on, whether they be Chicoms, Ruscoms, or Euro trach socialists.

America first. That is the strategy. We need no one else to accomplish that.

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Russia and China are bound to come into conflict in coming decades.

BRICS will not hold.

The only reason China and Russia 'get along' is because they have a common adversary in the US.

Both countries are facing short term and long term demographic collapse. It wont be long until they start conflicting again over territory on their own border or even influence in the former Soviet states and Mongolia.