Same reason he said Zelenskyy has a 4% approval rating. Love the guy, voted for him 3 times and would again if I could, but he sometimes says some really really stupid *****

Zelenski was pushing for Ukraine to join NATO and Biden administration was hinting they would go along with it.

rgvag11 said:

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US President Donald Trump has blamed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. He made the comments after a US and Russian delegation met for talks to end the war pic.twitter.com/YborVl2Vtx

— TRT World (@trtworld) February 19, 2025

I always thought Russia was the aggressor.

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I have been beating this drum for years now.

Ukraine, and the US, are not victims here. They got what they wanted and Putin was forced to respond.

If he didn't he would not be in charge today.

CrackerJackAg said:

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rgvag11 said:

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US President Donald Trump has blamed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. He made the comments after a US and Russian delegation met for talks to end the war pic.twitter.com/YborVl2Vtx

— TRT World (@trtworld) February 19, 2025

I always thought Russia was the aggressor.

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I have been beating this drum for years now.

Ukraine, and the US, are not victims here. They got what they wanted and Putin was forced to respond.

If he didn't he would not be in charge today.

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May we have some specific details as to how Putin was "forced" into being the aggressor?

ETA: Are you saying this is what Trump believes too?

Because Ukraine/USA did start the war….very similar playbook to the USA's role in the Vietnam war

Putin was forced to invade a sovereign nation because they might have joined a defensive alliance?

If Trump is saying that, then he is obviously wrong.


(Countries have every right to pursue and join whatever alliances they want. Nobody has the right to invade them because of it.)

Putin started the fighting.

I hate when Trump says stupid crap like this.

At the same time it can be true that Ukraine and Biden were doing things like adding missile defense and working to add Ukraine to NATO that clearly were meant to provoke Russia.

Russia is the kid that beat up his little brother because he was putting his finger in his face saying "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!"

I hope Trump is saying it for effect and not because he is planning to 100% side with Russia. Zelenskyy has shown his ass this week with his demands for money though. F that guy.

Putin wanted a puppet quasi-dictatorship in Ukraine similar to what he has in Belarus. He was well on his way to achieving that goal until 2014 when the US and west sponsored an overthrow of Ukraine's Russian-installed leader.

Russia responded by invading the eastern part of Ukraine and taking over Crimea. They gradually built up their forces and full-scale invaded in 2022.

Trump, just like a few posters on this board and also Tucker Carlson, seems to have been convinced think the world would be better off if Ukraine went the way of Belarus and just turned into a vassal state of Russia under Moscow's complete control. The Soviet Union getting back together. What could go wrong.

TheBonifaceOption said:

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rgvag11 said:

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I always thought Russia was the aggressor.

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You are wrong.

Imagine if you had an American-majority living in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, they wanted to be independent from Canada. Things devolve, and Canada decides to outlaw pro-NS/NB media so these provinces are unable to have journalism and press and they are forced to listen to Canadian-majority media. They are becoming marginalized politically without a voice or ability to engage in messaging. War breaks out.

The world learns that Canada has been torturing, raping, and targeting civilians. The world forces a cease-fire. A cease-fire which Canada breaks, with the tenuous claim that Nova Scotia broke it first.

You are sitting in America, seeing your American brothers brutalized, marginalized, and being beaten. People have fled to your town asking you and your government for help.

At what point does the big brother step in and engage the bully?

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Would we also launch cruise missiles into Ottawa, and then try to level residential areas in Toronto and Montreal to purposely punish their civilians and force them into capitulation? Would we then annex several Canadian provinces and make them the 51st through 53rd states? Even those that are still culturally Canadian?

TheBonifaceOption said:

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rgvag11 said:

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I always thought Russia was the aggressor.

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You are wrong.

Imagine if you had an American-majority living in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, they wanted to be independent from Canada. Things devolve, and Canada decides to outlaw pro-NS/NB media so these provinces are unable to have journalism and press and they are forced to listen to Canadian-majority media. They are becoming marginalized politically without a voice or ability to engage in messaging. War breaks out.

The world learns that Canada has been torturing, raping, and targeting civilians. The world forces a cease-fire. A cease-fire which Canada breaks, with the tenuous claim that Nova Scotia broke it first.

You are sitting in America, seeing your American brothers brutalized, marginalized, and being beaten. People have fled to your town asking you and your government for help.

At what point does the big brother step in and engage the bully?

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They could turn on an AM radio are receive Russian state-controlled news.


Big brother does not step in. He coaches from the sidelines. You don't invade another sovereign nation.

Quote:

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You don't invade another sovereign nation.

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Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness to type this sentence

He's posturing to get them to agree to a peace deal imo. It doesn't make it any less cringy but there is a method to his madness.

There's an art to mediation...sometimes it's getting people to swallow some things they'd rather not and telling others things they'd like to hear in order to make them amenable to a deal.

I think that's what's going on here

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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You don't invade another sovereign nation.

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Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness to type this sentence

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Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness, or an inability to learn from past mistakes, to not type that sentence.

rgvag11 said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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You don't invade another sovereign nation.

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Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness to type this sentence

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Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness, or an inability to learn from past mistakes, to not type that sentence.

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One of us thinks maps never change. The other understands history

CrackerJackAg said:

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rgvag11 said:

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US President Donald Trump has blamed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. He made the comments after a US and Russian delegation met for talks to end the war pic.twitter.com/YborVl2Vtx

— TRT World (@trtworld) February 19, 2025

I always thought Russia was the aggressor.

---

I have been beating this drum for years now.

Ukraine, and the US, are not victims here. They got what they wanted and Putin was forced to respond.

If he didn't he would not be in charge today.

---

Its a little more gray than that, but it is correct to say nothing constructive was ever going to come from our meddling in the internal politics of a nation on Russia's border where they were in an uneasy co-existence. We should have guaranteed them against invasion (as basically assured in the 90's) instead of insinuating it would be permitted without consequence (done twice maybe more than that), than bankrolling a proxy war. Then frustrating efforts to resolve it.

Also, talks of "defensive alliance" are very disingenuous when a govt and media constantly calls a country there enemy. Saying it is defensive means nothing if you are also taking the pose as an enemy. So that argument has always seemed kind of obtuse. It also ignores the cardinal rule that any sensible military regards capability, not the words and statements, as to what to look at.

TheBonifaceOption said:

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rgvag11 said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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You don't invade another sovereign nation.

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Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness to type this sentence

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Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness, or an inability to learn from past mistakes, to not type that sentence.

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One of us thinks maps never change. The other understands history

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One of us cares about global peace and the other supports the aggressors.

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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You don't invade another sovereign nation.

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Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness to type this sentence

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We weren't justified in Iraq in 2003. We were in 1991. Iraq had invaded a sovereign Kuwait and we liberated Kuwait with a coaliton and left. In 2003 we invaded Afghanistan after they facilitated the slaughter of thousands of Americans in 9/11.

If Ukrainians had orchestrated thousands of deaths in a Moscow attack I'd be all for Russia invading. They didn't. And at no time did we ever try to make Afghanistan or Iraq the 51st state. Russia is trying to annex Ukraine.

Exactly. This would be like us invading Canada to annex the areas rich in natural resources and then installing a puppet leader to manage the rest.

We could claim ahead of time that most Canadians really wanted to be Americans.

We totally did a poll. Trust us.

Our military operation should only last 3 days. When it doesn't and ends up going horribly, blame everyone else and pay Tucker Carlson to blame Canada for their own invasion.

The uke-rus war is a money theft & death joint venture

Nothing more nothing less

rgvag11 said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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rgvag11 said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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You don't invade another sovereign nation.

---

Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness to type this sentence

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Imagine someone in America having the lack of awareness, or an inability to learn from past mistakes, to not type that sentence.

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One of us thinks maps never change. The other understands history

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One of us cares about global peace and the other supports the aggressors.

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What an idiotic strawman. Your concern should be moderately better than that.

Exactly. That's why that example is BS. Russia could have easily moved into the far east Russian areas of Ukraine and secured them quickly and then held them. They didn't. They rolled north from Belarus in an effort to take Kiev (an area that is overwhelmingly anti Russian) pand all of Ukraine but got punched in the mouth and pushed back to where they are now. Russia then fell on this "but muh ethnic Russians" bit once their original plan blew up in their faces.

Teslag said:

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Exactly. That's why that example is BS. Russia could have easily moved into the far east Russian areas of Ukraine and secured them quickly and then held them. They didn't. They rolled north from Belarus in an effort to take Kiev (an area that is overwhelmingly anti Russian) pand all of Ukraine but got punched in the mouth and pushed back to where they are now. Russia then fell on this "but muh ethnic Russians" bit once their original plan blew up in their faces.

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Very good point.

The 'saving ethnic Russians' narrative is bs. Putin wanted all of Ukraine.

From what I've read, going back to Gorbachov the Russian's have been drawing the NATO line in the sand at Ukraine. When the US forced regime change in Ukraine from anti-NATO to pro NATO and Biden pushed for them to join this is what prompted the Russian response.

Everyone knew that talking about adding Ukraine to NATO would create a Russian response. Always, always, always follow the money.

ned911 said:

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From what I've read, going back to Gorbachov the Russian's have been drawing the NATO line in the sand at Ukraine. When the US forced regime change in Ukraine from anti-NATO to pro NATO and Biden pushed for them to join this is what prompted the Russian response.

Everyone knew that talking about adding Ukraine to NATO would create a Russian response. Always, always, always follow the money.

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Another Russian fiction.

ETA: Might as well say the US started the war.

This is where the true followers of the Russian disinformation campaign will show themselves.

It's pretty easy to see how they did it too. They just latched it onto the leftist messaging during the height of the mudslinging. So many right to far right just saw Uke = leftist and rebounded hard by forfeiting common sense and critical thought.

The damn thing is, is how f'ing easy it was. They did take some leftist messaging but then inflated it/lied to egregious proportions and sculpted out what is probably one of the most perfect psyop campaigns ever waged. How many of the same posters crying about Zelesnky posted videos of Soviet infiltration and media control tactics from the 60's onward? And yet refuse to believe that it was happening to them? I gave up countering the lies years ago. Screaming into the void doesn't cover it. I saw the futility when a poster threw out some dumb propaganda lies, I proved them wrong USING THE VERY SOURCES THEY POSTED, they ditched the thread that they were very active on up to the point, then were on another not even a day later posting the exact same lie. Some people here aren't interested in truth. They are interested in narratives that support their world. Nothing else needs to exist. Was everything that happened during the Biden campaign kosher? Of course not. It also was not as bad as most of the naysayers think it was and trust me, I have several rants against it myself over the years. Under a Trump admin, an effective and efficient aid package should have continued that would have enhanced our capabilities, strengthened our existing ties in Ukraine, propelled ourselves back onto the world stage as a trusted ally (which is pure dog**** as of now) and IMO, would have actually shaped ourselves up in a better spot against the coming war with China.

Putin did not invade to save abused ethno-Russians or destroy Nazis or biolabs. That is LIV thinking. Euromaidan doesn't happen and sustain till 2022 without popular support from the people.

I am also pretty certain this is where the first true wedges of the Elon/ left split began. I do think Russia was the main driver behind the initial media blitz against Elon on the global stage and it was devastatingly effective IMO. And cheap. It's also where I actually gotta give the Russians credit. Because if I were them, I would have done the same thing. Strategically brilliant victory.