Eliminatus said:

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BusterAg said:

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JayM said:

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Teslag said:

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Same reason he said Zelenskyy has a 4% approval rating. Love the guy, voted for him 3 times and would again if I could, but he sometimes says some really really stupid *****

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Yes, he is unhinged with little impulse control. He wants to give Ukraine back to Russia. He will be held in high esteem in Russian history books.

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This isn't going to happen.

I'm still waiting for all of those U.S. journalists to be liberated from internment camps.

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His rhetoric today alone would cast doubt on your assertion.

I don't know what the **** Trump is thinking right now. I used to scoff at him being labeled as "Putin's lil buddy" but damn me if he isn't looking like one at the moment. It's not over yet of course but the messaging direction so far is WILD. He is favoring Russian interests over anyone else right now in Europe. What. The. Actual. ****.

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You still listen to Trump's rhetoric?

For Trump, rhetoric is a specific negotiation tactic.

Have you learned nothing?

He is not favoring Russian interests, he is just not opposing them. He is favoring U.S. interests.

Wake me up when we start selling missiles to Russia.

Teslag said:

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aTmAg said:

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AtticusMatlock said:

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Biden wanted to evacuate the Ukrainian leadership and Z told him no. At that point the Biden admin was backed into a decision and decided to assist in the defense.

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He didn't have to assist. He could have just let them duke it out.

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He did. We didn't start sending large amounts of aid until after Ukraine held their own

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My point is that nothing public forced Biden to EVER support Ukraine. He could have let them fend for themselves the entire time. My theory is that Zelensky had all sorts of evidence of Biden corruption in Ukraine. And there is never a better time to use that card than when his nation was INVADED. So he used it. Suddenly Biden did a 180 and started his support.


I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of that Ukraine money went into democrat pockets though.

BusterAg said:

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Eliminatus said:

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BusterAg said:

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JayM said:

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Teslag said:

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Same reason he said Zelenskyy has a 4% approval rating. Love the guy, voted for him 3 times and would again if I could, but he sometimes says some really really stupid *****

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Yes, he is unhinged with little impulse control. He wants to give Ukraine back to Russia. He will be held in high esteem in Russian history books.

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This isn't going to happen.

I'm still waiting for all of those U.S. journalists to be liberated from internment camps.

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His rhetoric today alone would cast doubt on your assertion.

I don't know what the **** Trump is thinking right now. I used to scoff at him being labeled as "Putin's lil buddy" but damn me if he isn't looking like one at the moment. It's not over yet of course but the messaging direction so far is WILD. He is favoring Russian interests over anyone else right now in Europe. What. The. Actual. ****.

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You still listen to Trump's rhetoric?

For Trump, rhetoric is a specific negotiation tactic.

Have you learned nothing?

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Not of this magnitude. I am not whole heartedly believing right now it is a negotiation tactic. Not with his cabinet members and what he campaigned on and his own relations with Putin.

Would love to be proven wrong though!

If Z had that card, I'm pretty sure he used it well before the invasion to get promises of US financial support.

I think it's not that complicated. We didn't support Ukraine at first because we assumed, like everyone else, that Russia had a massive military advantage and would win very quickly. Giving aid would be pointless in a quick war.

When Ukraine completely pushed Russia back after months of fighting we decided it was then worth giving additional aid.

Doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

fightingfarmer09 said:

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Putin started the fighting.

I hate when Trump says stupid crap like this.

At the same time it can be true that Ukraine and Biden were doing things like adding missile defense and working to add Ukraine to NATO that clearly were meant to provoke Russia.

Russia is the kid that beat up his little brother because he was putting his finger in his face saying "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!"

I hope Trump is saying it for effect and not because he is planning to 100% side with Russia. Zelenskyy has shown his ass this week with his demands for money though. F that guy.

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Clearly provoke?

No. If those actions provoked putin, that's Putin problem.

Teslag said:

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Same reason he said Zelenskyy has a 4% approval rating. Love the guy, voted for him 3 times and would again if I could, but he sometimes says some really really stupid *****

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4% approval seems high.

johnnyblaze36 said:

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Teslag said:

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Same reason he said Zelenskyy has a 4% approval rating. Love the guy, voted for him 3 times and would again if I could, but he sometimes says some really really stupid *****

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4% approval seems high.

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Dumb. It's over 50% on recent polls. Good lord.

Were you surprised when Trump came out and supported reciprocal tariffs even though he had just threatened to INVADE CANADA!

You think the rhetoric about Russia was more extreme than INVADING CANADA?

aTmAg said:

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Teslag said:

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aTmAg said:

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AtticusMatlock said:

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Biden wanted to evacuate the Ukrainian leadership and Z told him no. At that point the Biden admin was backed into a decision and decided to assist in the defense.

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He didn't have to assist. He could have just let them duke it out.

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He did. We didn't start sending large amounts of aid until after Ukraine held their own

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My point is that nothing public forced Biden to EVER support Ukraine. He could have let them fend for themselves the entire time. My theory is that Zelensky had all sorts of evidence of Biden corruption in Ukraine. And there is never a better time to use that card than when his nation was INVADED. So he used it. Suddenly Biden did a 180 and started his support.


I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of that Ukraine money went into democrat pockets though.

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Probably that large block of money termed "missing" came back here. But that that rather than 1994 pledge prompted the stance not sure about. Interesting idea.

titan said:

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We have the same issue coming up with Taiwan.

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We should absolutely protect Taiwan until we can compete with TSMC here in the states. It is in our best interests. Not really the same as Ukraine.

Eliminatus said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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I think the reason that Zelensky got Biden to support him afterwards was because he secretly threatened to expose Biden's corruption.

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That would not surprise me in the slightest. Zelensky had access to receipts that would have provided leverage, not only with Biden but Obama, too. Remember Obama's hot mic statement to Medvedev about Putin being "flexible" until after Obama's reelection? Flexible about what, exactly?

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Possibly, but I think it far more likely when it became apparent that Ukraine was not going to fold quickly and so Biden could gain some quick political capital and goodwill across the world. Worked pretty well too, I might add.

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My point was more about Biden signaling that the scale of the Russian "incursion" into Ukraine was of import, given the history of past inaction by the US when Putin went into Georgia, then Crimea and Donbas.

But then Putin was going for broke trying to take all of Ukraine advancing on Kiev, instead of a more limited territorial land grab. Didn't help that Putin's justification for such a large scale invasion was muddied and sounded unconvincing.

aggiehawg said:

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Eliminatus said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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I think the reason that Zelensky got Biden to support him afterwards was because he secretly threatened to expose Biden's corruption.

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That would not surprise me in the slightest. Zelensky had access to receipts that would have provided leverage, not only with Biden but Obama, too. Remember Obama's hot mic statement to Medvedev about Putin being "flexible" until after Obama's reelection? Flexible about what, exactly?

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Possibly, but I think it far more likely when it became apparent that Ukraine was not going to fold quickly and so Biden could gain some quick political capital and goodwill across the world. Worked pretty well too, I might add.

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My point was more about Biden signaling that the scale of the Russian "incursion" into Ukraine was of import, given the history of past inaction by the US when Putin went into Georgia, then Crimea and Donbas.

But then Putin was going for broke trying to take all of Ukraine advancing on Kiev, instead of a more limited territorial land grab. Didn't help that Putin's justification for such a large scale invasion was muddied and sounded unconvincing.

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BusterAg said:

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titan said:

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We have the same issue coming up with Taiwan.

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We should absolutely protect Taiwan until we can compete with TSMC here in the states. It is in our best interests. Not really the same as Ukraine.

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Should we signal in advance then, that we will repel invasion -- so as to deter it? Make that choice the choice for larger war so its clear to them?

titan said:

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BusterAg said:

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titan said:

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We have the same issue coming up with Taiwan.

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We should absolutely protect Taiwan until we can compete with TSMC here in the states. It is in our best interests. Not really the same as Ukraine.

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Should we signal in advance then, that we will repel invasion -- so as to deter it? Make that choice the choice for larger war so its clear to them?

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Or we let them join an alliance they literally exists to protect people from Russian invasion

aTmAg said:

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Regarding the war itself, Ukraine is no demon at all. Not even close.

Um, they were the chief money laundering arm of the democratic party until about 29 days ago. The people might not be endlessly corrupt, but their government is.

Proclaiming a desire to join NATO is not a "threat". And that is not the reason they attacked. They attacked because they WANT Ukraine. It's that simple.

I don't know how you can say that with any authority. Like I said before, it was absolutely a consideration. Putin covets Kiev. Was it 100% the reason for the invasion? It is a pretty messy conflict. Trying to assign white and black hats doesn't really work.

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BusterAg said:

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aTmAg said:

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It is a pretty messy conflict. Trying to assign white and black hats doesn't really work.

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It isn't messy or assigning white and black hats to state that Putin ordered this invasion.

This is Trump's Neville Chamberlain moment, except that Chamberlain was acting in good faith.

Teslag said:

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titan said:

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BusterAg said:

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titan said:

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We have the same issue coming up with Taiwan.

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We should absolutely protect Taiwan until we can compete with TSMC here in the states. It is in our best interests. Not really the same as Ukraine.

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Should we signal in advance then, that we will repel invasion -- so as to deter it? Make that choice the choice for larger war so its clear to them?

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Or we let them join an alliance they literally exists to protect people from Russian invasion

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And then be prepared to go to war. Repeating --- we cannot tell another what their red line is. If they have given it, we either are prepared to forcibly suppress it, or look the fool if end up in a war because didn't listen. They may have already even enforced it --- if the "land grab" insistence is only part of the story as suspect. That's one take from our side. Its not the only one.

Trump is trying to play ART OF THE DEAL as he ALWAYS DOES

this puts more pressure on Zelensky to agree to terms, and gets Putin to make an actual effort to wind down the war.

didn't help Ukraine that Zelensky has been badmouthing Trump the last 48 hours!

aTmAg said:

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BusterAg said:

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aTmAg said:

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BusterAg said:

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aTmAg said:

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If Trump is saying that, then he is obviously wrong.


(Countries have every right to pursue and join whatever alliances they want. Nobody has the right to invade them because of it.)

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It's not the best use of USA resources to protect the rights of Ukraine, whatever they are.

The era of the USA asserting its empire over the entire world is coming to an end. We should not be trying to export our culture through force. We have enough problems right now to fix at home.

That is bad for a lot of people, both philosophically and financially, but that is the reality.

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This is a different argument. I could be persuaded by this, since we are up to our eyeballs in debt.


However, that is completely different than claiming that the war was UKRAINES fault. That is an asinine assertion. The person who commits violence first is the one at fault. Russian FREAKING INVADED a sovereign nation. Not for retaliation of any attack or anything.. just because they want it. Just like Hitler invading Poland or Japan invaded China. There is ZERO justification for that.

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I'm not assigning blame on Ukraine. I am saying that they chose open war over peace, and Russia started the invasion. They expanded the threat to join NATO. That spawned the invasion. They wouldn't have done that without assurances from Biden that we had their back. That promise should never have been given, and wouldn't have been given, if Ukraine wasn't the largest money laundering operation for corrupt US politicians.

Everyone is at fault here. Ukraine, Russia and the US government.

There are no angels here, only demons.

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Regarding the war itself, Ukraine is no demon at all. Not even close. Proclaiming a desire to join NATO is not a "threat". And that is not the reason they attacked. They attacked because they WANT Ukraine. It's that simple.


And you are 100% wrong on Russia attacking "because Biden assurances that he had their back." Biden did the EXACT OPPOSITE. He said in an interview that he wouldn't care about a "minor incursion" and even pulled out all US troops 10 days prior to the invasion. THAT is what gave Putin the green light. I think the reason that Zelensky got Biden to support him afterwards was because he secretly threatened to expose Biden's corruption. If Biden had instead kept American troops there, then Putin would have likely never invaded. If Biden had F-22's on patrol, then he would have certainly never invaded.

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If that were truly the case, then why wait? The answer is that it doesn't make sense in any scenario, no matter how you try to look at it. If Zelensky had that kind of dirt on Biden, he'd either leverage it in 2021 for weapons and assistance, leverage it into pressuring Biden into taking a hard stance on support before an invasion, or pressure Biden into giving more lethal aid much sooner after Russia invaded. None of that happened, and the slow play really doesn't help him at all.

I'm sure certain posters will accuse him of wanting to slow play aid to stop elections and grift support, but such a theory would require some truly incredible assumptions. For one, Zelensky was a comedian until he ran for president in 2019. He's not exactly the typical well connected politico with his hands in the cookie jar. If he was intending on some kind of grift, he couldn't possibly have known a) whether there was any proof of Biden's previous corruption in Ukraine, b) that Biden would ever even run again, c) that Biden would actually win, or d) that Russia would eventually invade.

Let's assume he ran and then just came into this situation, which I'm sure is going to be the counterargument. Why not leverage the information earlier for weapons and aid? He could've grifted just as easily and without the whole threat from Russia thing. I'm sure the counterargument for that is be intended on a never ending war to keep him in power, but now you're getting into the assumption that he knew Russia would invade and that Ukraine would be able to fight them off, which absolutely no one thought was going to happen.

So, again, no matter how you slice it, the idea that Zelensky was somehow leveraging information against Biden makes absolutely no logical sense.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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I think the reason that Zelensky got Biden to support him afterwards was because he secretly threatened to expose Biden's corruption.

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That would not surprise me in the slightest. Zelensky had access to receipts that would have provided leverage, not only with Biden but Obama, too. Remember Obama's hot mic statement to Medvedev about Putin being "flexible" until after Obama's reelection? Flexible about what, exactly?

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100% of this is Trump is rightly pissed that Ukraine led to his first impeachment!

why didn't Zelensky ever defend Trump and say "I never felt I was being threatened or given a quid pro quo"

and absolutely Zelensky was involved or his cabinet in payouts to the Bidens.

100% that is playing a role in Trump's attitude today!

I will say, as much respect I have for Zelenskyy, it was completely stupid of him to try and criticize Trump in public

Quote:

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Why do you think Trump is saying Ukraine started the war?

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OP, focus more on what Trump does rather than on everything he says.

Question: the divide here seems to center on this.

Do you believe peace with Russia would follow if Ukraine joins NATO?

I Do Not.

So feel it needs to be kept well back from the negotiating table, and when it comes up at all it should be used as a *threat* club, not claimed it is harmless.

That is the key issue -- what one thinks will follow if you pull Ukraine into NATO. If conflict with Russia as believe, then would prefer to get ready for it. But it sure seems avoidable. Certainly has no ideological or cultural necessity or basis.

Teslag said:

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as much respect I have for Zelensky

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Quote:

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Do you believe peace with Russia would follow if Ukraine joins NATO?

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Of course. Russia wouldn't risk an article 5 trigger over Ukraine. Bullies only attack those they think are weak.

Teslag said:

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johnnyblaze36 said:

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Teslag said:

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Same reason he said Zelenskyy has a 4% approval rating. Love the guy, voted for him 3 times and would again if I could, but he sometimes says some really really stupid *****

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4% approval seems high.

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Dumb. It's over 50% on recent polls. Good lord.

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Proving there are a ton of very stupid people in this world that don't mind being robbed blind.

Kinda makes you wonder how much money Zelensky has stuffed in foreign bank accounts.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Do you believe peace with Russia would follow if Ukraine joins NATO?

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Of course. Russia wouldn't risk an article 5 trigger over Ukraine. Bullies only attack those they think are weak.

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Okay. So there is the divide.

I think Russia sees the 21st rhetoric in defiance of their stand down in 1991 as an existential threat and lack of any desire for a true reset. Various outreach moments by them have been rebuffed by Cheney types and also war profiteers. (The two are not the same). From gleeful pronouncements of our neocons about Russian bodies to Zeihan's demographic predictions. Finally the "degenerate agenda" of the DC-MSM complex as well as the peculiar coddling of Islam has even given a sense of existential struggle to some of the Orthodox Church from Russia to Serbia. Between all these, I think Russia feels truly at risk. And that does not lead to peace if further trod upon.

did we discuss the fact that Zelensky went to battleground state of Pennsylvania a few weeks before the election and basically it was a campaign rally for the democrats?

maybe Trump remembers!!

Abuse of taxpayer funds': Zelensky Pennsylvania trip seen as boost to Democrats

Washington, September 24, 2024

By Ramsey Touchberry and Rachel Schilke

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky's visit to a Pennsylvania factory making ammunition in its fight against Russia has prompted Republican lawmakers to cry foul and accusing him of campaigning for Democrats in a key state.

Zelensky visited the factory to thank American munitions workers as part of a broader U.S. trip that will include Washington, D.C., later in the week. Some Republicans, however, told the Washington Examiner they saw a more sinister motive to stump for Democrats in the crucial swing state just weeks before the elections.

"When it comes to Pennsylvania, President Trump is going to win the state," House Republican Conference Chairwoman Elise Stefanik (R-NY) said. "I think it's an abuse of taxpayer funds and trying to support Democrat candidates and using military aircraft to do so."

johnnyblaze36 said:

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Teslag said:

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johnnyblaze36 said:

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Teslag said:

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Same reason he said Zelenskyy has a 4% approval rating. Love the guy, voted for him 3 times and would again if I could, but he sometimes says some really really stupid *****

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4% approval seems high.

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Dumb. It's over 50% on recent polls. Good lord.

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Proving there are a ton of very stupid people in this world that don't mind being robbed blind.

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It's a poll of Ukrainians. Their perspective may be different than yours.

Aggie Apotheosis said:

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Trump is Putin's stooge. It's so disheartening. There was so much in Trump's Truth message that is demonstrably false.

I remember when Republicans hated Russian dictators.

Ronald Reagan is spinning in his grave.

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Talking point is out. This is probably the 10th leftist/Ukraine cheerleader I have seen invoking Ronald Reagan, who the left hates with every ounce of their being.

LMCane said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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I think the reason that Zelensky got Biden to support him afterwards was because he secretly threatened to expose Biden's corruption.

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That would not surprise me in the slightest. Zelensky had access to receipts that would have provided leverage, not only with Biden but Obama, too. Remember Obama's hot mic statement to Medvedev about Putin being "flexible" until after Obama's reelection? Flexible about what, exactly?

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100% of this is Trump is rightly pissed that Ukraine led to his first impeachment!

why didn't Zelensky ever defend Trump and say "I never felt I was being threatened or given a quid pro quo"

and absolutely Zelensky was involved or his cabinet in payouts to the Bidens.

100% that is playing a role in Trump's attitude today!

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The first thing Trump did after Zelensky was elected, before even calling him, was block a large military aid package. Why do him a favor and get drug into American politics for a guy who doesn't give a **** about him and has a policy of making the most one sided deals he can? When you push people around to get what you want, it shouldn't come as a shock when they don't feel ingratiated to you and aren't going to do you a favor once you need something from them. You shouldn't be asking, "Why didn't he?" but, based on Trump's policies regarding other nations, "Why would he?" You don't slap someone in the face and then get upset they won't come do you a favor.

And everything Biden did in Ukraine predated Zelensky getting into politics by several years. There's no way he'd possibly be involved at all, and thinking he would've been just shows ignorance. Even if someone in his cabinet was involved, he ran as a reformer. Exposing them and cutting them loose would actually be a benefit.