Philip J Fry said:

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NG is in the running for the navy NGAD

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Correct. And with Lockheed out of the picture on this proposal...

NG recently won the Tacamo project with the Navy (replacing the E-6B). Also, they are sustaining the E2-D. They appear to have a good relationship/experience with NAVAIR, so I like their chances on the Navy NGAD.

EX TEXASEX said:

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I know. I should been more clear with where I was going with that statement. Historically you ALWAYS hear about military programs being a financial diaster and riddled with incompetence ect. NG is doing an amazing job with the B-21 based on everything I have read and heard. I have never heard such praise EVER for a program. I really wish they would have bid. ( Why leave 47 billion on the table without even trying ? ) vs. the reality of Boeing being the winner.

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From my experience, the public releases from the prime as well as the customer tend to be rosier than what the teams engaged in the real "sausage-making" process actually are seeing. They still have a lot of work to do.

Probably will crash so much they will designate it for kamikaze use only.

Fighting the last (cold) war again.

Why not just economically tank china / russia / iran. Our policies keep them afloat so we can spend billions to defend against them.

More on the secret origins of the F-47 and why it is already so far along in development.

DARPA

Trump just said the F-47 is accompanied by a fleet of drones that fly with it.

General Jack D. Ripper said:

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If this has bombing capabilities, what are the odds it will be used on American citizens during its lifespan?

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About as much as any other attack aircraft in the current arsenal.

I am not certain why you are posing a question like that, but the DoD is not making a stealth aircraft to bomb its citizens!! Maybe those countries flooding the US with terrorists might be a little worried.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Trump just said the F-47 is accompanied by a fleet of drones that fly with it.

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See the "CCA" link posted earlier.

one safe place said:

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Probably will crash so much they will designate it for kamikaze use only.

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The F-47 Max. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Additional notes from CSAF on how the F-47 will be better than the F-22.

6th GEN

For those into design details, here's a look at the F-47's canards, which are typically not a feature of stealthy aircraft.

CANARDS

Philip J Fry said:

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NG is in the running for the navy NGAD

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Would be nice to have some Grumman Iron back on a carrier deck.

I'd have to think it's likely NG has the upper hand here. Coming up shortly. There could be quite a rivalry between the two programs.

Boeing, Northrop Grumman Await US Navy Next-Generation Fighter Contract This Week, Sources Sayhttps://t.co/SFBMnV6P5Q

— gCaptain (@gCaptain) March 25, 2025

"The U.S. Navy is expected to announce this week who will build its next-generation carrier-based stealth fighter - a program worth hundreds of billions over its lifetime and a key part of plans to confront China, people familiar with the decision said" ~ Via @Reuters 🔗👇 pic.twitter.com/8cELsYvwlS

— AirPower 2.0 (MIL_STD) (@AirPowerNEW1) March 25, 2025

F/A-18 E/F fleet is what 600+? Say 60% of them are replaced by F/A-XX that's 350-400 a/c factoring in Growler replacement. Where is Northrop Grumman going to build them? Not saying this is a deal breaker but a genuine question as NG hasn't done something this big in a while.

— AirPower 2.0 (MIL_STD) (@AirPowerNEW1) March 25, 2025

Note; all images are really just notional/guesses. The Navy is typically a bit less secretive about developmental aircraft though, imho.

nortex97 said:

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I'd have to think it's likely NG has the upper hand here. Coming up shortly. There could be quite a rivalry between the two programs.

Boeing, Northrop Grumman Await US Navy Next-Generation Fighter Contract This Week, Sources Sayhttps://t.co/SFBMnV6P5Q

— gCaptain (@gCaptain) March 25, 2025

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Those are bigger than aircraft carriers?!

Mr.Milkshake said:

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Anything human piloted is obsolete

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Mr.Milkshake said:

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Anything human piloted is obsolete

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Amazing. I didn't see Elon's lips move at all......

Navy version to be announced very soon.

F/A-XX

Maybe this "Roll-Out" is a smoke screen for what we are really doing/have done.

You gotta think those making these decisions with all the intel they have that this is meh and not good timing with all the monetary cuts.

I hope this is merely for show masking other technological superiority.


All that said, if this F47 comes out and is 6" x 6" dimension and the $60B buys 600 million of them and they have time bending technology then......

Grok, when was the last time an American "Next-Gen fighter came it under budget?

Determining the exact last time an American next-generation fighter was developed strictly "within budget" is challenging due to the complexity of defense projects, evolving requirements, and the lack of a clear, universal definition of "within budget." However, based on historical context and available data, the F-15 Eagle, first flown in 1972 and entering service in 1976, is often cited as one of the last U.S. fighter programs to perform well relative to its initial cost projections, delivering exceptional capability without the massive overruns seen in later programs.
The F-15's development began in the late 1960s, with McDonnell Douglas awarded the contract in 1969. The program's initial budget was approximately $1.2 billion for development (in then-year dollars), and while it faced some cost increases, it largely stayed within reasonable bounds for its time, avoiding the severe overruns that plagued subsequent next-generation fighters like the F-22 or F-35. Adjusted for inflation, the F-15's development cost would be roughly $8-10 billion in today's dollars, a figure considered modest compared to modern programs. Its success is underscored by its longevitystill in service todayand its combat record, all while meeting or exceeding performance expectations.
Later programs, such as the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II, saw significant budget escalations. The F-22, developed in the 1990s and entering service in 2005, had an initial development estimate of around $12-13 billion, but costs ballooned to over $26 billion (in then-year dollars) due to technological challenges, production cuts, and shifting requirements. The F-35 program, starting in the early 2000s, is an even more extreme case, with initial estimates of $40-50 billion for development spiraling to over $100 billion, alongside delays and performance issues.
The F-16 Falcon, introduced in 1978, is another contender, often praised for its cost-effectiveness as a lightweight fighter. Its development cost was around $700 million in the 1970s (about $3-4 billion today), and it stayed relatively close to projections, though it was designed as a simpler complement to the F-15 rather than a standalone "next-gen" leap. Still, its success and affordability make it notable.
No publicly available data definitively states a more recent next-generation fighter (e.g., fifth or sixth generation) was completed within its original budget. The Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program, currently underway, remains classified in many aspects, and its budget status is unclear as of March 21, 2025, though concerns about affordability have already prompted reviews.
Thus, the F-15 Eagle, completed in the 1970s, stands out as the last clear example of a U.S. next-generation fighter developed without significant budget overruns, balancing cost, schedule, and performance effectively.

Gigem314 said:

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Mr.Milkshake said:

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Anything human piloted is obsolete

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I guess we got the plot of Top Gun 3 now.

Maverick flys the new F-47 and the accompanying fleet drones are hacked by China's quantum AI.

Mav successfully dogfights 5 of the 6 hacked drones and is forced to kamikaze drone #6 to save America.

Roll credits.

Also under-rated historically are both the F-5 (and related trainer), and the classic hornets (themselves a derivative of the YF-17). The F-104 is ancient of course but was also developed/built on the cheap as was the A-4 (yet essentially only for export as to the former).

While not a fighter, the fabled A-10 was also developed/procured on schedule largely by Republic/Fairchild etc. I think. The F-117 was developed and produced for vastly lower sums than many other programs (re-using a lot of components internally from the F/A-18 fwiw). The AV-8B harrier II also deserves honorable mention, imho.

F/A-XX announcement supposedly coming this week. Should be interesting if Boeing gets this. Couple that with them working with the DOJ to withdraw their guilty plea in the 737 Max stuff.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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Gigem314 said:

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Mr.Milkshake said:

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Anything human piloted is obsolete

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I guess we got the plot of Top Gun 3 now.

Maverick flys the new F-47 and the accompanying fleet drones are hacked by China's quantum AI.

Mav successfully dogfights 5 of the 6 hacked drones and is forced to kamikaze drone #6 to save America.

Roll credits.

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You forgot buzzing the tower.

And Jennifer Conley goes back to being a single mom and loses all of Mav's SGLI money to an online romance catfishing scam.

No word yet today. Some thoughts:

Quote:

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X-35 first flight: 2000
F-35A first flight: 2006
F-35A operational: 2016
Total time: 16 years

YF-22 first flight: 1990
F-22 first flight: 1997
F-22 operational: 2005
Total time: 15 years

F-117 Have blue demonstrator first flight: 1977
F-117 first flight: 1981
F-117 operational 1983
Total time: 6 years.

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Boeing's #NGAD demonstrator went from contract award to first flight in < 2 yrs. Much like #B21 👇, I expect EMD #F47 & #FAXX a/c to be highly prod representative vs being 'prototypes'. Setting aside any protests, we could go from contract award to F-47/F/A-XX rollout in < 3 yrs. https://t.co/18MBGb4kgG

— AirPower 2.0 (MIL_STD) (@AirPowerNEW1) March 26, 2025

While USAF paused NGAD back in July 2024, it kept both LM & Boeing funded through the review period. Similarly, the USAF continued to fund the two NGAP OEM's during this period and awarded $3 Bn+ contract to each in January for #NGAP prototyping phase. https://t.co/uy5pdiwBjJ

— AirPower 2.0 (MIL_STD) (@AirPowerNEW1) March 26, 2025

Boeing pushes back.

"We've been flying a prototype for quite some time," Steve Parker, Boeing's interim defense unit CEO, said in a Tuesday briefing with reporters here at the Avalon air show when asked why taxpayers should believe the company can perform. "And we won the program. So that is a maturity stamp that I'll give you right then and there."

CONTRACT

the plan is to economically tank Iran by limiting their oil exports

IIRC the F-117A also came under budget.

TheRealJacob said:

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Haven't seen much about Boeing Planes being flown by AI yet. They should have minimal pilot interaction if any, though.

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Isnt that the point of drones?

So this was very disappointing. Indeed - looks like I'm out.

Was on design teams for:

B-1B
B-2
C-17
F-16C/D
F-22
C-130J
F-35A/B/C

And several unmentionables.....

Was hoping for a few years of initial design on our NGAD concept. We had a great plane.

I mean if Boeing comes up with something as ugly as the X-32 prototype you could be back in. That's the real reason the lost the contract for the JSF..

real reason was we had a flying STOVL prototype and they didn't.

and their prototype was nicknamed the "Monica" - for obvious reasons.

I don't think Lockheed's fights over their IP ownership for software/logistics stuff for the F-35 has helped them with the DoD.

74OA said:

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Boeing pushes back.

"We've been flying a prototype for quite some time," Steve Parker, Boeing's interim defense unit CEO, said in a Tuesday briefing with reporters here at the Avalon air show when asked why taxpayers should believe the company can perform. "And we won the program. So that is a maturity stamp that I'll give you right then and there."

CONTRACT

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That's a hilarious quote. I did 40 years in the business and the design/prototype phase is called the honeymoon for good reason.

Maturity stamp because they won a bid. LOL.

fc2112 said:

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So this was very disappointing. Indeed - looks like I'm out.

Was on design teams for:

B-1B
B-2
C-17
F-16C/D
F-22
C-130J
F-35A/B/C

And several unmentionables.....

Was hoping for a few years of initial design on our NGAD concept. We had a great plane.

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Do you know anything about the Boeing one? I am totally out of the loop.

How did the two compare?