YouBet said:

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Martin Cash said:

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techno-ag said:

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Martin Cash said:

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YouBet said:

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Property taxes are frozen at 65.

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Only 50% of it is.

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What are you talking about? Whatever your tax bill was the year you turned 65 is the amount it will stay until you sell or die. It can actually go down based on increased HS exemptions etc.

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Valuations aren't frozen though and continue to rise annually.

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So?

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It only applies to the school portion of your property tax bill which is typically about 50% of your total tax bill. And if you make improvements then your school portion resets to higher basis.

So, there are caveats.

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Did you even read my post? County and city taxes can also be frozen at 65. The commissioner and city council have the authority to do that. If they don't, a petition can force an election. If your county and city taxes aren't frozen, that's your fault. I turned 65 seven years ago. My taxes are actually less than they were then because of changes in exemptions etc..

Kenneth_2003 said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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Real estate taxes are frozen at 65. If their real estate taxes are their largest expense, they are not making much income and are probably already largely living off of entitlements.

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If you're 70, with a paid off house, what would be a bigger expense? Property taxes are likely the largest expense for most people in that situation with a fixed/retirement income. I know a few people this is a giant burden for.

That 'entitlement' jab is disassociated from reality.

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Ok... lets re-write this.
If you're 70, with a paid off house, what would be a bigger expense? Property taxes Police, fire, local roads, parks, flood control, and schools they do not have any kids enrolled in are likely the largest expense for most people in that situation with a fixed/retirement income.

Ummm... I'm 44 single and in that's pretty much my situation as well other than not retired. Why do they get a break?

What if grandma and grandpa never bought a property? Their rent isn't fixed. Property taxes are a pass thru on rentals so does their landlord not get to "price grandma out of her rental?"


Plus... Fixed income/retirement income grandma... Does their retirement income get taxed if we go income route? What about their new TV? Grandma is going to pay local taxes one way or another. Unless you just want to give grandma free fire and police service.

Don't want to charge grandma for schools? Fine. Don't charge me either.

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They're treated differently, because you can work...they cannot. For most, their income is fixed. And if they'll long since paid off their home, they should own it, without fear they cannot 'afford it' (with respect to taxes).

You mention all those other expenses taxes go to. But they likely paid school district taxes for DECADES longer than they had kids in them. So if we're going to be fair.....

But all that said, I'm not even suggesting giving them a break. I'm suggesting a slightly higher sales tax that we all pay, grandma and grandpa included, to account for those things you highlighted. This still shares the burden without the concern of losing their home.

AgGrad99 said:

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I didnt skip it...but you're getting off into tangents that aren't germane.

If your argument is, 'there are things I dont like about sales tax, so that can't be an alternative to a worse tax'...I dont know what to say. There are issues with the tax code, for every single tax in existence.

I'd rather improve, even if not perfect. I'd rather remove this burden, and own my home, with a slightly higher state/local sales tax (which already exists, and everyone pays).

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Another issue that Sales Tax, consumptions tax, or income tax cannot remedy. Since public bonds are set by individual taxing authorities you can very easily have wildly different tax districts over just a few blocks in urban areas.
Fire districts are different... Example I live in Harris County ESD 7 which is Spring fire department. Just a few blocks in two directions is Ponderosa Fire Department. Cross Kuykendahl and you're looking at Klein FD. IN other areas Spring borders Tomball or even The Woodlands.
Then there is the overlap in Schools. I live in Klein ISD but a full half of Spring FD's territory is Spring ISD.
Harris County ESD 11 provides ambulance service for much of unincorporated Harris County along Cypress Creek, crossing multiple Fire and School District boundaries
All of Harris County is covered by HC Sheriff, but Precinct Constables do a lot in their precinct's.
All of HC pays Flood Control
All of HC pays towards the Port Authority.
I'm not even sure how many Junior College systems are in Harris County, all with different taxation boundaries

How do you plan to break that out with sales or consumption taxes?
If you tax income will you tax the income where it is earned or where it resides?

As if they dont use recapturing for property taxes already?

Martin Cash said:

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YouBet said:

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Martin Cash said:

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techno-ag said:

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Martin Cash said:

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YouBet said:

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Quote:

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Property taxes are frozen at 65.

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Only 50% of it is.

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What are you talking about? Whatever your tax bill was the year you turned 65 is the amount it will stay until you sell or die. It can actually go down based on increased HS exemptions etc.

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Valuations aren't frozen though and continue to rise annually.

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So?

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It only applies to the school portion of your property tax bill which is typically about 50% of your total tax bill. And if you make improvements then your school portion resets to higher basis.

So, there are caveats.

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Did you even read my post? County and city taxes can also be frozen at 65. The commissioner and city council have the authority to do that. If they don't, a petition can force an election. If your county and city taxes aren't frozen, that's your fault. I turned 65 seven years ago. My taxes are actually less than they were then because of changes in exemptions etc..

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Yes, I read it and what you said is yet another caveat dependent on your fellow voters to make it happen. It's not universal.

So, what I wrote is state-wide and what you wrote is not. That's all.

YouBet said:

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Martin Cash said:

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YouBet said:

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Martin Cash said:

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techno-ag said:

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Martin Cash said:

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YouBet said:

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Quote:

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Property taxes are frozen at 65.

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Only 50% of it is.

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What are you talking about? Whatever your tax bill was the year you turned 65 is the amount it will stay until you sell or die. It can actually go down based on increased HS exemptions etc.

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Valuations aren't frozen though and continue to rise annually.

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So?

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It only applies to the school portion of your property tax bill which is typically about 50% of your total tax bill. And if you make improvements then your school portion resets to higher basis.

So, there are caveats.

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Did you even read my post? County and city taxes can also be frozen at 65. The commissioner and city council have the authority to do that. If they don't, a petition can force an election. If your county and city taxes aren't frozen, that's your fault. I turned 65 seven years ago. My taxes are actually less than they were then because of changes in exemptions etc..

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Yes, I read it and what you said is yet another caveat dependent on your fellow voters to make it happen. It's not universal.

So, what I wrote is state-wide and what you wrote is not. That's all.

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Any city or county would have no problem getting the signatures to put this on the ballot where it will pass by at least 75%. Quit being lazy,

Martin Cash said:

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YouBet said:

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Martin Cash said:

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YouBet said:

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Martin Cash said:

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techno-ag said:

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Martin Cash said:

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YouBet said:

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Quote:

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Property taxes are frozen at 65.

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Only 50% of it is.

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What are you talking about? Whatever your tax bill was the year you turned 65 is the amount it will stay until you sell or die. It can actually go down based on increased HS exemptions etc.

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Valuations aren't frozen though and continue to rise annually.

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So?

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It only applies to the school portion of your property tax bill which is typically about 50% of your total tax bill. And if you make improvements then your school portion resets to higher basis.

So, there are caveats.

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Did you even read my post? County and city taxes can also be frozen at 65. The commissioner and city council have the authority to do that. If they don't, a petition can force an election. If your county and city taxes aren't frozen, that's your fault. I turned 65 seven years ago. My taxes are actually less than they were then because of changes in exemptions etc..

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Yes, I read it and what you said is yet another caveat dependent on your fellow voters to make it happen. It's not universal.

So, what I wrote is state-wide and what you wrote is not. That's all.

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Any city or county would have no problem getting the signatures to put this on the ballot where it will pass by at least 75%. Quit being lazy,

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Sure. Still a caveat though. And I would expect your taxes to be less over 65. We have a local 7,500 exemption that gets applied to non-school line items.

This image shows the different taxing jurisdictions I'm currently responsible for everything from the county and school district to our local fire, EMS, and MUD (utility district).

If Texas ever decided to remove property taxes like what's being discussed in Florida, I'm curious how would we continue to pay for critical services like fire protection, EMS, and local infrastructure? These aren't optional; they keep communities safe and running. Would those taxes come from increasing the sales tax?

That said, I do think there's room for reform, especially for seniors. Homeowners over 65 who have already paid off their homes shouldn't be taxed out of them. If the state offered a full exemption from school district taxes for seniors, it would go a long way toward helping them stay in their homes without the burden of rising property taxes.

Red Pear Felipe said:

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This image shows the different taxing jurisdictions I'm currently responsible for everything from the county and school district to our local fire, EMS, and MUD (utility district).

If Texas ever decided to remove property taxes like what's being discussed in Florida, I'm curious how would we continue to pay for critical services like fire protection, EMS, and local infrastructure? These aren't optional; they keep communities safe and running. Would those taxes come from increasing the sales tax?

That said, I do think there's room for reform, especially for seniors. Homeowners over 65 who have already paid off their homes shouldn't be taxed out of them. If the state offered a full exemption from school district taxes for seniors, it would go a long way toward helping them stay in their homes without the burden of rising property taxes.

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Just be clear, Florida is not discussing total elimination of property taxes. Just some mitigation on homeowners' primary residences.

Florida had some very interesting property tax reform back in 1992 called "Save Our Homes (SOH)." It limits increases in assessed value to 3% of the previous year's value, or the CPI increase (whichever is lower). What's really neat is that you can also transfer the SOH benefit to a new homestead property if you move.

Let's say I bought a house in Ocala in May of 1995 for $90k (which my parents did when we moved there from Longview, but let's say it's me). County property appraisers tend to set assessed value at around 90% of the market value when a home is first purchased. So for the 1995 tax year (payments are due in November), the assessed value would be $81k. The homestead exemption at the time was $25k, so the taxable value is $56k. Let's assume a millage rate of 6.177 (that's the current millage rate in Ocala; I have no idea what it was back then), the full property tax bill would be $345.91 in 1995 ($735.34 in today's dollars).

The average inflation rate over the past 30 years was 2.55%, so that is pretty much going to reflect the increase in the assessed value of the home. Today, that home would probably sell for about $450k, but if I were still in it, their assessed value would be $172,407. Take $25k off for homestead exemption (current homestead exemptions in Florida are $50k for all non-school taxes, and $25k for school taxes, but I'm just going to stick with a single number) and your taxable value is $147,407 with a total tax bill of $892. Seniors over the age of 62 can qualify for an additional $50k in homestead exemption as well.

Now let's say that I sold that home for $450k this year to a family moving from out of state. The new owners would have an assessed value of probably $405k, and with a homestead exemption their tax bill would be $2,501.69.

The cool thing for me is the portability of the SOH benefit. If I went and bought a new homestead property for $600k, I get to transfer up to $500 of SOH benefit to the new property. In the home I sold in the original example, I had $232,593 in benefit (market value of $405k; assessed value of $172,407). My new home gets a market value of around $540k (sales price - 10%). Subtract my SOH benefit, and I end up with an assessed value of $307,407, and a taxable value of $332,407. That saves me over $1000 a year in property taxes.

Tom Fox said:

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ExPeterKeating said:

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I will support any politician who gets behind this. The property taxes on my house are CRAZY!

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How much is crazy? Lots of people say this but I've yet to see it reach even a fraction of high income taxes.

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Anything more than zero.

TRX said:

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Tom Fox said:

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ExPeterKeating said:

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I will support any politician who gets behind this. The property taxes on my house are CRAZY!

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How much is crazy? Lots of people say this but I've yet to see it reach even a fraction of high income taxes.

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Anything more than zero.

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Same goes for my income taxes then. We all pay the same rate or it's zero.

Tom Fox said:

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Real estate taxes are frozen at 65. If their real estate taxes are their largest expense, they are not making much income and are probably already largely living off of entitlements.

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I'm 50 and will pay $28,000 in property tax next year. That's almost double where we started on our current properties in 2011 and 2017. What will that number be in 15 years? Yay, frozen at $50K a year?

Immoral tax is immoral and needs to go away.

FIDO*98* said:

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Tom Fox said:

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Real estate taxes are frozen at 65. If their real estate taxes are their largest expense, they are not making much income and are probably already largely living off of entitlements.

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I'm 50 and will pay $28,000 in property tax next year. That's almost double where we started on our current properties in 2011 and 2017. What will that number be in 15 years? Yay, frozen at $50K a year?

Immoral tax is immoral and needs to go away.

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How much is your house valued at to have a $28k property tax bill? It would have to be > $2 million. Think what you would pay in state income taxes. It would be a shlt load more than $28k. I would crawl across broken glass to pay 5 times that in fed income taxes.

2.3-2.4 and we owe 300K that will be paid off in 5 years. If I then retired at age 55 my income tax would go away. Property taxes would continue to grow for 10 more years.

FIDO*98* said:

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2.3-2.4 and we owe 300K that will be paid off in 5 years. If I then retired at age 55 my income tax would go away. Property taxes would continue to grow for 10 more years.

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So shift the tax structure that advantages you at this point in your life. No way that your investment income taxes at the state level that replace the property tax will not be close to your current property tax bill.

On top of that, whatever replaces property taxes will certainly screw high earners even more.

I'm cool with the status quo.

Tom Fox said:

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FIDO*98* said:

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2.3-2.4 and we owe 300K that will be paid off in 5 years. If I then retired at age 55 my income tax would go away. Property taxes would continue to grow for 10 more years.

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So shift the tax structure that advantages you at this point in your life. No way that your investment income taxes at the state level that replace the property tax will not be close to your current property tax bill.

On top of that, whatever replaces property taxes will certainly screw high earners even more.

I'm cool with the status quo.

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I shouldn't have to rent property that I own from the state/county. Status quo sucks.

How will we fund schools? That's my only concern.

txags92 said:

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Tom Fox said:

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FIDO*98* said:

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2.3-2.4 and we owe 300K that will be paid off in 5 years. If I then retired at age 55 my income tax would go away. Property taxes would continue to grow for 10 more years.

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So shift the tax structure that advantages you at this point in your life. No way that your investment income taxes at the state level that replace the property tax will not be close to your current property tax bill.

On top of that, whatever replaces property taxes will certainly screw high earners even more.

I'm cool with the status quo.

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I shouldn't have to rent property that I own from the state/county. Status quo sucks.

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I shouldn't have to pay almost 40% of my income in taxes when the majority of Americans pay very little in taxes by comparison and 2/3 of that tax revenue pays for their individual family needs through entitlements.

The status quo does suck but if property taxes are changed it will certainly be replaced with either a consumption or income tax that will further increase my total tax burden. And this doesn't even take into account the idiotic Texas Franchise taxes that my small business already pays for being successful.

As one poster always shares. The federal budget necessitates each citizen pay $13.5k annually. So my family of 4 should be on the hook for $54k a year in taxes and yet I pay almost 5 times that covering 20 other Americans not pulling their weight.

The status quo certainly does suck but I will oppose anything that further shifts an additional percentage of the tax burden further upon me until everyone is paying the same rate on all of our taxes.

t - cam said:

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How will we fund schools? That's my only concern.

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No one has solved that yet which is why status quo will remain and we will continue to whine about it.

The good news is if it works in Florida, Abbott will copy DeSantis again.

And for all the *****ing we do about property taxes (me included), we still have one of the lowest overall tax burdens of any state.

YouBet said:

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And for all the *****ing we do about property taxes (me included), we still have one of the lowest overall tax burdens of any state.

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Exactly! This is what I don't get. It is a virtual certainty that if we replace it with something, it it will increase the tax burden on producers.

I have become a tax pragmatist. I want my total taxes below 20%.

I'm just tired of paying property taxes to entities that don't provide any services to my property.

I can at least be sold on a city tax that maintains the roads I take to get to my property and the fire and police protection for my property.
But then on top of that I pay a full rate of property taxes to the county, that doesn't put any of that money back into the city limits where my property is, and an outrageous school rate that provides no direct service to my property.

I'd be happy if we found a way to eliminate property taxes altogether. But at the very least, if I'm going to pay a tax on my property, it should be used to help service my property.

Texas median home values would get quite the bump. I would think the mortgage industry would lobby hard to get property tax removed. Does that make home ownership even more out of reach for a significant portion of the population?

High income earning is the worst form of wealth accumulation, but there is still a modicum of controllability there. Property tax is the worst form of tax accumulation. You can be against progressive income tax and property tax at the same time, they aren't mutually exclusive.

You could get the idiocy like we have in my small town of 9k people where both our school rates and municipal rates are rising at the same time. The latter of which is partially due to the absolute Taj Mahal City Hall that we've built that is about 10x overkill for what we need, is way over budget, and behind schedule.

It's absolutely ridiculous what they built and then had the gall to raise our taxes again to cover the bill. It's a 3 building campus that looks like something you would see in a city of 1M or more. I would wager that it's nicer than most existing City Hall's in the USA.

Rossticus said:

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I think he means exempting the full value of homesteads from property tax.

But to his previous point, no. Texas politicians don't have the balls for that.

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Im all for this, but where does the money come from if not property taxes?

Jeeper79 said:

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Rossticus said:

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I think he means exempting the full value of homesteads from property tax.

But to his previous point, no. Texas politicians don't have the balls for that.

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Im all for this, but where does the money come from if not property taxes?

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No one knows. [/YouBet's Broken Record response]

ExPeterKeating said:

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I will support any politician who gets behind this. The property taxes on my house are CRAZY!

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Up until recently, property taxes were about 15% of my take home pay. We've now gone dual income so they're ONLY 10%.

Tom Fox said:

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ExPeterKeating said:

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I will support any politician who gets behind this. The property taxes on my house are CRAZY!

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How much is crazy? Lots of people say this but I've yet to see it reach even a fraction of high income taxes.

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The difference would be that when you retire, you would not owe income tax. But as the current system stands, you better plan on paying out the nose for property taxes until you die.

There is never actual savings. No doubt a new burden would replace the current one. If politicians want to eliminate property taxes you can be damn sure they have other ideas for how to get your money.

YouBet said:

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You could get the idiocy like we have in my small town of 9k people where both our school rates and municipal rates are rising at the same time. The latter of which is partially due to the absolute Taj Mahal City Hall that we've built that is about 10x overkill for what we need, is way over budget, and behind schedule.

It's absolutely ridiculous what they built and then had the gall to raise our taxes again to cover the bill. It's a 3 building campus that looks like something you would see in a city of 1M or more. I would wager that it's nicer than most existing City Hall's in the USA.

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Sounds like a terrible idea, but surely it was voted on, wasn't it?

If I could vote my city hall down into a double wide, I'd do it.

this would definitely make a difference if I am going to rent or buy a home in Florida in next few years..

if I have to still pay high taxes and hurricane insurance every year, there is no point in owning and risking and having to pay for HVAC and repairs and upkeep as you will still be paying out thousands of dollars every year.

might as well as rent and have no worries.

but if the home taxes go away, that would likely change the equation.

Property taxes should be just that….taxes on the LAND

Property taxes should not take into account what I PAID (and paid taxes on) to build/put on said property (house, sheds, pools, etc).

jeremy said:

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Tom Fox said:

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ExPeterKeating said:

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I will support any politician who gets behind this. The property taxes on my house are CRAZY!

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How much is crazy? Lots of people say this but I've yet to see it reach even a fraction of high income taxes.

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The difference would be that when you retire, you would not owe income tax. But as the current system stands, you better plan on paying out the nose for property taxes until you die.

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I'd be all for eliminating prop taxes for those that have met retirement age. I'd actually be ok with my tax burden increasing some to fund it if it was possible.