Europe finally getting slapped into reality?

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Over_ed
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6:39a, 11/29/25
AG
WSJ has an article this morning saying Europe has finally realized that they are falling irrevocably behind the US, China, and even Russia. I know, I chuckled too. Some points made in the article:

  • Trump and China resetting the rules of trade this summer with no EU input
  • Trump/US latest plan for Russian/Ukraine peace with no EU input
  • China's devastation of EU manufacturing topped of by China's EV dominance
  • Trump's imposition of a unilateral 15% tariff that the EU had to meekly accept
According to the article, the EU is "now" very serious about re-armament, forming cross-national economic consortiums, and achieving greater political consensus.

A couple of opinions:
1) Many in the EU may hate him, but if the EU survives and prospers it will be due to DJT conclusively showing their utter impotence. But the EU has been in a tailspin for decades, I personally doubt their ability to turn things around with their high social costs, fractious governing structure, and self-poisonous immigration rules.

2) This will probably be unpopular on this forum, but the EU's condition now also shows the real cost of that "National Divorce". A US divided into two parts makes each much weaker: probably each not half as strong but instead much less than that.

I personally think that is too high a cost, despite the appeal of moving away from the crazies.

WSJ - paywalled

First part of article here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/europe-fears-it-can-t-catch-up-in-great-power-competition/ar-AA1Rj6up
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Teslag
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7:35a, 11/29/25
AG
The EU is what America would be if we kept the articles of confederation
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ts5641
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8:06a, 11/29/25
Unfortunately it's too late for Europe. The once dominant continent in the world is now awash in leftism and being taken over by islam. No good culture can survive either one let alone both.
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Deputy Travis Junior
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9:17a, 11/29/25
I've posted this before, but 15-16 years ago coming out of the great financial crisis, both the USA and EU had GDPs of about $16 trillion. Today, the EU is sitting at ~$19T and the USA at ~$30T. This growth means that the per capita GDP of Mississippi (one of our poorest states) is above most countries in the EU. That should have the klaxons blasting at deafening levels, but instead the EU is doubling down and letting unelected bureaucrats pile on even more suffocating regulations.

I don't see how they matter going forward. They can't innovate because bureaucrats and politicians are over regulating everything, and even if they could innovate, they don't have the financial system to compete with our bottomless capital.
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dmart90
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In reply to ts5641 • 9:19a, 11/29/25
AG
ts5641 said:
Unfortunately it's too late for Europe. The once dominant continent in the world is no awash in leftism and being taken over by islam. No good culture can survive either one let alone both.

Europe has been socialist and left leaning FOREVER. Their undoing has been becoming apologetic about their history and colonialism and letting that impact their policies.
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titan
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In reply to ts5641 • 9:29a, 11/29/25
S
ts5641 said:
Unfortunately it's too late for Europe. The once dominant continent in the world is no awash in leftism and being taken over by islam. No good culture can survive either one let alone both.

True. In a real way they don't have to fear Russia. It might be a step up from they are headed. But the issue is Eastern Europe is in pretty good shape and lies between them and Russia. So its to Islam will likely fall unless go through a spasm of say --- very limited compassion and toxic empathy.
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halfastros81
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In reply to Over_ed • 9:30a, 11/29/25
AG
Totally agree with your points. National divorce in particular would be destructive and wouldn't solve anything as same forces would be in play within any new Republic that are trying to fracture the existing Republic. It would be another part of the designed victory for the freedom haters.
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samurai_science
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9:57a, 11/29/25
They can't rearm, look at the budgets of each country and if they say they are it's performative
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chiphijason
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In reply to Deputy Travis Junior • 9:59a, 11/29/25
AG
If you remove the capital and its heavily subsidized citizens from the per capita figures for almost every European country their gdp is about 75% of Mississippi.
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aezmvp
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In reply to dmart90 • 9:59a, 11/29/25
dmart90 said:
ts5641 said:
Unfortunately it's too late for Europe. The once dominant continent in the world is no awash in leftism and being taken over by islam. No good culture can survive either one let alone both.

Europe has been socialist and left leaning FOREVER. Their undoing has been becoming apologetic about their history and colonialism and letting that impact their policies.
Most of Europe has been bifurcated between socialist rabble and elites. The elites have a repeated nasty habit of ignoring things until they become untenable through a mixture of sloth and averice. The mixture between those varies from country to country. The English side of this had a third group of lower middle/upper class and high end workers that translated to the US as well. That has been a fixture in Amglosphere politics since the barons forced the Magna Carta on King John.

The Germans had some mix of a similar strain in the burghers but they were too fractured for it to be an offsetting dynamic after unification.

I disagree with Islam, but it will take some serious, and probably pretty nasty, populist rage to drive Islam out but there will be a lot of blood for that to happen.
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zephyr88
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In reply to Teslag • 10:06a, 11/29/25
AG
Teslag said:
The EU is what America would be if we kept the articles of confederation

Listening... care to elaborate?
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zephyr88
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In reply to aezmvp • 10:07a, 11/29/25
AG
Quote:
I disagree with Islam, but it will take some serious, and probably pretty nasty, populist rage to drive Islam out but there will be a lot of blood for that to happen.

Holy wars exist for a reason. It might take another to clear the stench.
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Logos Stick
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In reply to Deputy Travis Junior • 10:18a, 11/29/25
They are also shrinking dramatically population wise. The highest TFR is France at 1.6. It goes down from there.
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Chevy.Art
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In reply to ts5641 • 12:23p, 11/29/25
ts5641 said:
Unfortunately it's too late for Europe. The once dominant continent in the world is no awash in leftism and being taken over by islam. No good culture can survive either one let alone both.

True and both need to be eradicated before they grow too large in the USA.
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LMCane
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In reply to Deputy Travis Junior • 12:53p, 11/29/25
just look at how ALL of the AI Artificial Intelligence economy

is dominated by the United States and some by China.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to zephyr88 • 1:54p, 11/29/25
AG
zephyr88 said:
Teslag said:
The EU is what America would be if we kept the articles of confederation

Listening... care to elaborate?


The way the EU operates is similar to the US did under the Articles of Confederation. Sovereign member states subject to a weak central government with a unified currency. Lots of competing agendas and "Me first" domestic policies of member states that work against the greater good (like dependence on Russian O&G, insistence on intake of "asylum seekers", etc).
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zephyr88
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 2:07p, 11/29/25
AG
ABATTBQ11 said:
zephyr88 said:
Teslag said:
The EU is what America would be if we kept the articles of confederation

Listening... care to elaborate?


The way the EU operates is similar to the US did under the Articles of Confederation. Sovereign member states subject to a weak central government with a unified currency. Lots of competing agendas and "Me first" domestic policies on member states that with against the greater good (like dependence on Russian O&G, insistence on intake of "asylum seekers", etc).

Thanks.... I get it now.
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AggieMD95
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In reply to ts5641 • 2:42p, 11/29/25
AG
ts5641 said:
Unfortunately it's too late for Europe. The once dominant continent in the world is now awash in leftism and being taken over by islam. No good culture can survive either one let alone both.


Yep they forgot the moral justification for their own existence; no immune system or limiting principles to stop leftism or Islamofascism
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bmks270
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2:58p, 11/29/25
AG
Their employment laws, environmental regulations, and tax systems stifle any entrepreneurial innovation.

Innovation is dead in Europe. They won't ever catch up if they don't change the above 3.
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BigRobSA
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In reply to bmks270 • 3:21p, 11/29/25
bmks270 said:
Their employment laws, environmental regulations, and taxa systems stifle any entrepreneurial innovation.

Innovation is dead in Europe. They won't ever catch up if they don't change the above 3.


Same as here. Those are the things that drove mfg away.
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infinity ag
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In reply to Over_ed • 3:52p, 11/29/25
Over_ed said:
WSJ has an article this morning saying Europe has finally realized that they are falling irrevocably behind the US, China, and even Russia. I know, I chuckled too. Some points made in the article:

  • Trump and China resetting the rules of trade this summer with no EU input
  • Trump/US latest plan for Russian/Ukraine peace with no EU input
  • China's devastation of EU manufacturing topped of by China's EV dominance
  • Trump's imposition of a unilateral 15% tariff that the EU had to meekly accept
According to the article, the EU is "now" very serious about re-armament, forming cross-national economic consortiums, and achieving greater political consensus.

A couple of opinions:
1) Many in the EU may hate him, but if the EU survives and prospers it will be due to DJT conclusively showing their utter impotence. But the EU has been in a tailspin for decades, I personally doubt their ability to turn things around with their high social costs, fractious governing structure, and self-poisonous immigration rules.

2) This will probably be unpopular on this forum, but the EU's condition now also shows the real cost of that "National Divorce". A US divided into two parts makes each much weaker: probably each not half as strong but instead much less than that.

I personally think that is too high a cost, despite the appeal of moving away from the crazies.

WSJ - paywalled

First part of article here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/europe-fears-it-can-t-catch-up-in-great-power-competition/ar-AA1Rj6up


If you want to read the article, click here

https://archive.ph/I4lsN
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APHIS AG
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7:51p, 11/29/25
So, what Reagan did to the Soviet Union, Trump is doing to the EU.
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Over_ed
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In reply to infinity ag • 9:02p, 11/29/25
AG
infinity ag said:
Over_ed said:
WSJ has an article this morning saying Europe has finally realized that they are falling irrevocably behind the US, China, and even Russia. I know, I chuckled too. Some points made in the article:

    ...
WSJ - paywalled

First part of article here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/europe-fears-it-can-t-catch-up-in-great-power-competition/ar-AA1Rj6up


If you want to read the article, click here

https://archive.ph/I4lsN

Thanks, tied up in coding hell today. Stupid project for my wife, but she is worth every nitro tablet I take. j/k not one of my meds. :-)
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nortex97
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In reply to APHIS AG • 4:54a, 12/27/25
AG
APHIS AG said:
So, what Reagan did to the Soviet Union, Trump is doing to the EU.

Brussels Signal makes the point/analogy explicitly; "The EU could be gone in 4 years."
Quote:
In 1988, if you had told anyone that the Soviet Union would cease to exist just four years later, you would have been dismissed as a crank. The institutions looked solid, the bureaucracy entrenched, and the power absolute. Yet by 1992, it was history.

Today, European politicians in Brussels, Berlin, and Paris suffer from the same dangerous optimism. They believe they are so safely ensconced in their institutional frameworks that public anger can never truly throw them out of the saddle. But looking at the trajectory of the European Union, I believe we are closer to a revolutionary moment than the elites dare to imagine.

Quote:
Young German men are asking a very logical question: "You want us to pay high taxes to support a migration policy that imports young men from Syria who live on welfare, and then you want to conscript us to fight a Russian tank in Eastern Europe?"

The social contract is broken. The Green Partyonce the pacifistsare now the loudest militarists, while the only people with actual military experience seem to be in the AfD. It is a total inversion of reality.
People feel this disconnect. They feel it when they visit a Christmas market and see armed military guards next to the mulled wine stand. We are told crime stats are fine, but the anxiety is real. A society where mundane activities require military protection is not a healthy society. This is why voters in Austria, the Netherlands, and increasingly Germany are looking toward Hungary and asking why the Hungarians don't have these problems.

If these grievances are not addressed, the system will break. A revolution doesn't always mean pitchforks in the streets; it can happen at the ballot box. But if the establishment tries to ban parties, censor speech with "democracy shields," and prevent political change, they only make the eventual eruption more violent.
The Soviet Union thought it was eternal in 1988. The French monarchy thought it was secure in 1788. The EU thinks it is safe today. They are wrong.

From that author's keyboard to God's ear, hopefully.
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Aggie Spirit
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7:23a, 12/27/25
AG
"The continent's leaders have long worried they will be left behind as the U.S., China and Russia vie for economic, technological and military dominance."

Doesn't matter if they "worried." Europe has been stuck in the ditch since the GFC. NATO has over relied on the US and the continent has focused on radical left policies that thwarted growth. They can turn things around, but they've already been left far behind.
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halfastros81
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8:20a, 12/27/25
AG
We've provided them with military welfare for 81 + years not that we didn't benefit from it and for the most part they have totally blown the windfall . The mistake made was not making them do their part. Meanwhile "our " leftists have adopted their policies and have been leading us down the exact same path. Such a strange world.
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nortex97
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In reply to Aggie Spirit • 8:57a, 12/27/25
AG
Europe is run by people who hate both us, and their own people.

Ending our Nato membership is something that should rightfully happen in 2026.

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Pooh-ah95_ESL
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8:58a, 12/27/25
AG
The EU was a terrible idea from the beginning and logically seems doomed to fail, but bad ideas and market distortions can exist much longer than seems logical. Timing is always the big question. About as much wealth has been syphoned away on this grand European experiment in one-world government and it is time for the bag of bones to collapse. The longer it lingers, the lighter the corpse becomes.
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TexasAggie81
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 11:26a, 12/27/25
ABATTBQ11 said:
zephyr88 said:
Teslag said:
The EU is what America would be if we kept the articles of confederation

Listening... care to elaborate?


The way the EU operates is similar to the US did under the Articles of Confederation. Sovereign member states subject to a weak central government with a unified currency. Lots of competing agendas and "Me first" domestic policies of member states that work against the greater good (like dependence on Russian O&G, insistence on intake of "asylum seekers", etc).

The "sovereign member states" are not as sovereign as most people think. I live in Spain, and as many of you have rightly determined, the countries have ceded a substantial amount of autonomy to the EU. The EU Parliament isn't even elected. The delegates are chosen, and many of them are chosen to rubber stamp crazy ass policies dictated by the powers (above them) that be. Some of the policies the EU pushes are not only asinine but also betray the member nations. Now, many countries (Denmark, Poland, Hungary, and others) are either finding ways to bypass these crazy policies and over-intrusive laws or overt refusing to obey the nutcases in Brussels. I'm loving what I see. Weirdly, these people refuse to admit that the monster they have created and empowered is an abject failure.
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Jarrin Jay
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11:32a, 12/27/25
AG
The first and most important step for Europe and in particular Western Europe states to recover and prosper is the dissolution of the EU.

As long as the EU exists no country truly has sovereignty and a national identity.

UK was smart to BREXIT.
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JW
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11:53a, 12/27/25
AG
Just 1 or 2 more dominoes to go
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aggiehawg
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12:16p, 12/27/25
AG
Hmm.

Quote:
"According to a Gallup study published on Monday, confidence in French institutions has plummeted this year, while the desire to leave France has only grown. Euronews spoke with several French expatriates and prospective expats about their experiences."
The Euronews report interviews French citizens and expats criticizing the 'lack of opportunities for entrepreneurs', the 'monstrous tax burden' and the 'very bad atmosphere overall'.
Needless to say, Euronews does not connect the dots, and not a word is said about unchecked mass migration.


LINK
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aggie93
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In reply to Teslag • 4:36p, 12/27/25
AG
Teslag said:
The EU is what America would be if we kept the articles of confederation

Wut? The Articles of Confederation would have created essentially a country filled with states that operate like their own countries and only get together on some very basic issues like defense. It was incredibly weak. The EU has immense power that basically overrides most governments.

Had we stayed with the Articles then the US would essentially become multiple countries that would have varying levels of success. It's impossible to know though because we would have had a lot more wars most likely and far more European influence.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan
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Texas12&0
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4:58p, 12/27/25
It will be interesting what the Muslims do with Western Europe. Will they utilize their new resources and with ties to the Middle East both regions could prosper. Civilized Muslims will want to of that prosperity. And with that comes the building of a war machine. Years from now I could see the US, Russia and maybe even China ganging up to kick that ass. They would be seen as the next Hitler regime, but this time Jews and Christians exterminated. Seems to me radical Muslims have been a large portion of the immigration to Europe. China may stay neutral, but Russia doesn't want that crazy war machine next to them.
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Texas12&0
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In reply to aggiehawg • 5:01p, 12/27/25
aggiehawg said:
Hmm.

Quote:
"According to a Gallup study published on Monday, confidence in French institutions has plummeted this year, while the desire to leave France has only grown. Euronews spoke with several French expatriates and prospective expats about their experiences."
The Euronews report interviews French citizens and expats criticizing the 'lack of opportunities for entrepreneurs', the 'monstrous tax burden' and the 'very bad atmosphere overall'.
Needless to say, Euronews does not connect the dots, and not a word is said about unchecked mass migration.


LINK

Welp, that answered on of my questions. They'll f it up.
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