AtomicActuator said:

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It's also a quite simple concept to understand that groups without power are less able to impact society at large than groups with power.

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Not in the US. They have stolen billions and billions of our dollars and are aided by "insiders" on our payroll who are taking their cut. The "groups without power" have their voices amplified far beyond what the majority does.

We need to deport millions and take our country back from the radicals who vote democrat.

Tu quoque. We both agree that what Clinton said was awful and out of bounds good faith arguments and free speech principles and someone like that should be nowhere near the halls of power. I'm just applying that same principle to Trump.

Both Clintons were/are free market "New Democrats". They do not see eye to eye with the current direction of the party embodied by Mamdani.

Malibu said:

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I disagree entirely with the notion that Government has zero business being involved in various social issue, particularly around health and children's issues, while absolutely agreeing that the structure of the help matters and we're doing it wrong. Either way, debating the line of 'radical liberal mind virus' vs. different values of how to allocate scarce resources (USG budget) is useful.

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Federal government has zero business being involved with those issues. Should be left to state and local. And on a limited basis.

The founding fathers resorted to violence for their ideas. Do you consider those ideas to "suck"?

You aren't going to get 100% of the population to agree on anything, even whether the sky is blue or water is wet. What blows my mind is how we keep retreading ideas that don't work. Socialism and communism don't work. Government run housing doesn't work. Promoting based on anything other than your best estimate of merit doesn't work.

Unfortunately, to answer the OP, physical force and lead may be the only answer that mentally challenged radicals understand

Malibu said:

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Tu quoque. We both agree that what Clinton said was awful and out of bounds good faith arguments and free speech principles and someone like that should be nowhere near the halls of power. I'm just applying that same principle to Trump.

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Trump publicly stated that he wants reeducation camps or deprogramming for Democrats? Oh wait, the lgbtq's were going to be shipped off to camps by Trump in 2017. Right?


Only in the liberal fantasy world of lies and gaslighting.

MaxPower said:

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You aren't going to get 100% of the population to agree on anything, even whether the sky is blue or water is wet. What blows my mind is how we keep retreading ideas that don't work. Socialism and communism don't work. Government run housing doesn't work. Promoting based on anything other than your best estimate of merit doesn't work.

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Speaking of fantasy world and gaslighting, that's not what I said, although I can see how you took it that way. I'm referring to Trump's rhetoric against the left, or anyone that opposes him. Would you like a list of particularly out of bounds quotes or can we both take as given that Trump isn't exactly a paragon of virtuous and magnanimous speech against his enemies.

94DCAg said:

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How do we stop the MAGA virus?

• Destroying our society, peace, rule of law and global standing to get what they want.
• Thinking everything is binary (my way/mine versus the others which have no redeeming value) missing the big picture and consequential damages.
• Thug mentality- might makes right, when history shows thugs and their nation states eventually go down in flames.
• Wilingness to other-ise, vast segments of the population. Crimes, violence, etc inflicted upon others is encouraged or ok. "They had it coming."
• Rules for thee and not for me. No compromise.
• Support of the oligarchy because they think they are oligarchy rather than a pawn.
• Sin is ok to establish a Christian Nation State. And only certain kinds of Christians--those pesky Pope Leo type Christians don't count.

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Craziness...you know how you could better describe the vast majority of all of us?



Of course, when your party has shifted so freaking far left and just extreme in general...it seems that we have changed, by comparison.

On that note...here's another one. Again, I do not expect even the most reasonable liberal to agree, because we acknowledge completely different realities at this point.

Logos Stick said:

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The founding fathers resorted to violence for their ideas. Do you consider those ideas to "suck"?

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That quite debatable. No one agrees on who fired first at Lexington, but 8 militia were killed and only one British wounded. And if you go back further, you have the Boston Massacre, which was clearly escalated by the British.

But more importantly, they weren't using violence to change minds, but to win a struggle against what was clearly already an outside adversary. Apples and Oranges, and a bad faith argument imho.

They have massive brain washing factories in full production mode going full throttle every day and have for a long long time, and we wonder why they have captured so many minds and why they have become so radical. Americans are thoroughly brainwashed. It is effective.

This machine will win unless we shut it off, but people have been slow, painfully slow, in understanding what the radical leftist's are up to and understanding how well their techniques have been working.

Stop public education now. Don't hesitate. Don't think "well that seems harsh and radical". It's probably too late, frankly, but if there is any hope of killing the virus long term it starts with that. Stop all government loan programs too. That's just for starters. The radical left controls the minds of our young people. We do nothing.

Slicer97 said:

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Malibu said:

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I disagree entirely with the notion that Government has zero business being involved in various social issue, particularly around health and children's issues, while absolutely agreeing that the structure of the help matters and we're doing it wrong. Either way, debating the line of 'radical liberal mind virus' vs. different values of how to allocate scarce resources (USG budget) is useful.

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Federal government has zero business being involved with those issues. Should be left to state and local. And on a limited basis.

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"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I think it's right there in the opening paragraph that our government was explicit that it does have business being involved with those issues. The scope and effectiveness are well within the reasonable debate, but whether or not the Federal government should be involved I think was plainly stated in the Constitution.

94DCAg said:

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1981 Monte Carlo said:

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Of course, when your party has shifted so freaking far left and just extreme in general...it seems that we have changed, by comparison.

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10 years ago I was a straight-party voting Republican. From my perspective, the is the Right that has gone so far extreme that they are pulling us down. The Dems have policy tensions that need adjusted. But the GOP is currently a threat to America. I'm not down with all Dem policy, but will be voting for them until the GOP can rid itself of the lying, cheating, and violations of our founding principles. We are all in danger if Trumpism continues. Vance is no better.

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wow

Tired memes aren't evidence

And the federal government can best promote the general welfare of its citizenry by staying the f*** out of the way.

Scope should be limited and effectiveness is not a word generally associated with government programs.

94DCAg said:

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1981 Monte Carlo said:

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Of course, when your party has shifted so freaking far left and just extreme in general...it seems that we have changed, by comparison.

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10 years ago I was a straight-party voting Republican. From my perspective, the is the Right that has gone so far extreme that they are pulling us down. The Dems have policy tensions that need adjusted. But the GOP is currently a threat to America. I'm not down with all Dem policy, but will be voting for them until the GOP can rid itself of the lying, cheating, and violations of our founding principles. We are all in danger if Trumpism continues. Vance is no better.

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94DCAg said:

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1981 Monte Carlo said:

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Of course, when your party has shifted so freaking far left and just extreme in general...it seems that we have changed, by comparison.

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10 years ago I was a straight-party voting Republican. From my perspective, the is the Right that has gone so far extreme that they are pulling us down. The Dems have policy tensions that need adjusted. But the GOP is currently a threat to America. I'm not down with all Dem policy, but will be voting for them until the GOP can rid itself of the lying, cheating, and violations of our founding principles. We are all in danger if Trumpism continues. Vance is no better.

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Lol. Sure bud. You went from a card carrying Republican to a full blown Marxist in 10 years because of Trump.

I don't think the lib virus and divide between left and right can be cured, its too far gone.....the increase and speed in media access and narrative control only fuels the fire....I dont see any reconciliation down the road, and only some form of political or violent conflict going to one side of the other.... there is no democratic discourse in differing opinions or views anymore.....

Malibu said:

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Speaking of fantasy world and gaslighting, that's not what I said, although I can see how you took it that way. I'm referring to Trump's rhetoric against the left, or anyone that opposes him. Would you like a list of particularly out of bounds quotes or can we both take as given that Trump isn't exactly a paragon of virtuous and magnanimous speech against his enemies.

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Here we go again. You never mentioned Trump's rhetoric.

The left is outraged that Trump turned the table, will not turn the other cheek and grovel.

I get it because the resulting anger is on full display only because the milquetoast country club Republican whipping boys and girls are gone.

bobbranco said:

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Malibu said:

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Tu quoque. We both agree that what Clinton said was awful and out of bounds good faith arguments and free speech principles and someone like that should be nowhere near the halls of power. I'm just applying that same principle to Trump.

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Trump publicly stated that he wants reeducation camps or deprogramming for Democrats? Oh wait, the lgbtq's were going to be shipped off to camps by Trump in 2017. Right?


Only in the liberal fantasy world of lies and gaslighting.

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Can't even have an honest, good faith discussion with the most reasonable people on the left. Truly sad and disturbing. Even someone like malibu will be like "sure the vast majority of my political party wanted you and your family's lives ruined over refusal of an ineffective vaccine that you didn't need, but you've gotta be bigger than us and let that go! It's not right to be mad or frustrated about that! What's the big deal anyways?!".

94DCAg said:

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1981 Monte Carlo said:

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Of course, when your party has shifted so freaking far left and just extreme in general...it seems that we have changed, by comparison.

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10 years ago I was a straight-party voting Republican. From my perspective, the is the Right that has gone so far extreme that they are pulling us down. The Dems have policy tensions that need adjusted. But the GOP is currently a threat to America. I'm not down with all Dem policy, but will be voting for them until the GOP can rid itself of the lying, cheating, and violations of our founding principles. We are all in danger if Trumpism continues. Vance is no better.

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I don't even know where to begin.

94DCAg said:

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rid itself of the lying, cheating, and violations of our founding principles

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Describes the Democrats.

Rapier108 said:

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Answering that question honestly would likely mean a perma.

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How about this?

The answer to the OP's question is best captured in the title of one of Metallica's record albums.

bobbranco said:

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94DCAg said:

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rid itself of the lying, cheating, and violations of our founding principles

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Describes the Democrats.

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Exacty, their entire political party and power structure crumbles without lies and gaslighting. Completely crumbles. Deception is a cornerstone/pillar of the modern warped democratic faith. Let's be honest, it's basically a weird religion at this point.

bobbranco said:

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Malibu said:

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Speaking of fantasy world and gaslighting, that's not what I said, although I can see how you took it that way. I'm referring to Trump's rhetoric against the left, or anyone that opposes him. Would you like a list of particularly out of bounds quotes or can we both take as given that Trump isn't exactly a paragon of virtuous and magnanimous speech against his enemies.

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Here we go again. You never mentioned Trump's rhetoric.

The left is outraged that Trump turned the table, will not turn the other cheek and grovel.

I get it because the resulting anger is on full display only because the milquetoast country club Republican whipping boys and girls are gone.

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If you want examples, I'm happy to provide a list of Trump's rhetoric that I think is out of bounds. My point is about standards, not sides. If "cling to guns and religion" or "cult deprogramming" is beyond the pale of polite political debate, then cheering when Trump returns fire means the standard has shifted from principle to tribal permission. You may think hardball rhetoric is justified. That's a coherent position. But it's different from claiming there are boundaries, just ones that only apply to the other side.

Malibu said:

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bobbranco said:

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Malibu said:

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Speaking of fantasy world and gaslighting, that's not what I said, although I can see how you took it that way. I'm referring to Trump's rhetoric against the left, or anyone that opposes him. Would you like a list of particularly out of bounds quotes or can we both take as given that Trump isn't exactly a paragon of virtuous and magnanimous speech against his enemies.

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Here we go again. You never mentioned Trump's rhetoric.

The left is outraged that Trump turned the table, will not turn the other cheek and grovel.

I get it because the resulting anger is on full display only because the milquetoast country club Republican whipping boys and girls are gone.

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If you want examples, I'm happy to provide a list of Trump's rhetoric that I think is out of bounds. My point is about standards, not sides. If "cling to guns and religion" or "cult deprogramming" is beyond the pale of polite political debate, then cheering when Trump returns fire means the standard has shifted from principle to tribal permission. You may think hardball rhetoric is justified. That's a coherent position. But it's different from claiming there are boundaries, just ones that only apply to the other side.

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You want Republicans to stay within bounds and be the punching bag. I get it.

1981 Monte Carlo said:

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bobbranco said:

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Malibu said:

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Tu quoque. We both agree that what Clinton said was awful and out of bounds good faith arguments and free speech principles and someone like that should be nowhere near the halls of power. I'm just applying that same principle to Trump.

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Trump publicly stated that he wants reeducation camps or deprogramming for Democrats? Oh wait, the lgbtq's were going to be shipped off to camps by Trump in 2017. Right?


Only in the liberal fantasy world of lies and gaslighting.

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Can't even have an honest, good faith discussion with the most reasonable people on the left. Truly sad and disturbing. Even someone like malibu will be like "sure the vast majority of my political party wanted you and your family's lives ruined over refusal of an ineffective vaccine that you didn't need, but you've gotta be bigger than us and let that go! It's not right to be mad or frustrated about that! What's the big deal anyways?!".

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Framing your prior posts: I'm an outlier and most people on the left disagree with me. Fair?

Every large political coalition contains authoritarians, bad actors, and people willing to justify excesses when their side has power. That was true of the left during COVID, and I see it as true of the right in this moment now. My position isn't "be bigger and forget what happened." It's: apply the same standards consistently.

94DCAg said:

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1981 Monte Carlo said:

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Of course, when your party has shifted so freaking far left and just extreme in general...it seems that we have changed, by comparison.

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10 years ago I was a straight-party voting Republican. From my perspective, the is the Right that has gone so far extreme that they are pulling us down. The Dems have policy tensions that need adjusted. But the GOP is currently a threat to America. I'm not down with all Dem policy, but will be voting for them until the GOP can rid itself of the lying, cheating, and violations of our founding principles. We are all in danger if Trumpism continues. Vance is no better.

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94DCAg said:

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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

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Do you have a problem with the trans people holding me, a white, Christian male, responsible for their problems?

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Peacefully co-existing and having basic rights to be part of society is not putting their problems on you.


I know kids who have transitioned. Two kids that grew up as friends of my kids. I don't understand transitioning, but I love both kids (who are now in their mid 20s). Their parents didn't wish the transition on their kids and their families. All parents have done what's best to keep their kids alive. There is only so much you can do once a kid is 18.

This current political right-wing induced environment has all parties fearful of their lives and avoiding Red parts of the country---and seriously considering leaving the USA. Real, actual fear that life, liberty, and the ability to live could cease. Inability to travel to red areas is already a defacto limitation of their rights.

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Who exactly is fearful for their lives and why? What do they think is actually going to happen? Can you be more specific than life, liberty, and ability to live?

What do you mean inability to travel to red areas? Who is avoiding red areas and why?

If such were the case, how is it then that the red county I am in is the fastest growing in ultra liberal California and it is being populated by liberals who have told us they wanted a safer environment? It seems they are more fearful of the blue counties they migrated from.