Aggiefan#1 said:

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I've never heard of that.

Is that typical Islamic belief system?

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Arab based Islamicists, yes. Muslim Brotherhood stuff. So anything (like a Constitution) from 1979 on is Arab based, not Persian. And that is a big difference.

Ozzy Osbourne said:

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Iran is Home of the 12th Imam. One might call them the 12 Imam Foundation.

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They do refer to themselves that way and are great about recognizing their donors.

There is a reason I have always felt Iran is the one country that could have nukes and use it preemptively as opposed to as a deterrent.

I wish a number of other countries didn't have them but I think their leadership wants to stay alive and think more rationally (including Kim Jong Un) so they are very unlikely to launch without provocation.

Kansas Kid said:

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There is a reason I have always felt Iran is the one country that could have nukes and use it preemptively as opposed to as a deterrent.

I wish a number of other countries didn't have them but I think their leadership wants to stay alive and think more rationally (including Kim Jong Un) so they are very unlikely to launch without provocation.

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Agree with the idea that violent regimes wishing to destroy other countries should not own or control nukes.

Iran would have been much more effective in acquiring one than making one from scratch, but I think that is about them not making one or two but making an arsenal that they would use to end the world.

For the other regimes, good and bad, and then the non-state actors... Iran has shown, consistent with the above, that making one is hard and acquiring one, no matter the cost or difficulty, may be the remaining option for those wanting their own big boom toy.

We need Superman.

I'm not sure who would have sold Iran a nuke. Even their historical allies with nukes like Russia don't really trust them. Back in the 1990s they might have been able to get a black market one after the USSR fell but even that would have been tough.

This entire conversation is great. About midway through, Aimen Dean gives a breakdown of the ideology behind the Ayatollah and his ilk. These people want to bring on the end times so their messiah, who fell in a well 1400 years ago, will return. They most certainly would have used a nuke.

mjschiller said:

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There are 12er's in our country now.

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We must deport all Seahawks fans now!

Common knowledge for anyone that knows about Iran.

Surprising how similar the "end of the world" beliefs are between Muslims and evangelical Christians. Both groups seem to be actively trying bring about the return of their savior to lead them through the end times.

TOUCHDOWN! said:

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Surprising how similar the "end of the world" beliefs are between Muslims and evangelical Christians. Both groups seem to be actively trying bring about the return of their savior to lead them through the end times.

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You do realize they are a splinter of abrahamic religions, right?

Wait until you find out the story of Noah is just a Jewish retelling of the Gilgamesh flood myth….

It's quite lengthy but I watched this video (and part 2) and it gave me much more background on how we got to where we are today. The extremists of both sunnis (Al Qaeda, ISIS, ISIL) and shias (Iran, Assad's Syria, hezbollah, houthis) are all insane and we have helped both sides at different points (taking Sadam down was helpful for Iran).

Religious extremists represent a danger to those around them and those who are a target of their damnation.

Radical Islam, Jim Jones, David Koresh, modern DNC all examples of religious extremism.

You could argue that Hitler had elevated himself and the nazi party to have the effect of religious extremism. And like with Jim Jones utilized addictive drugs to great effect.

SirBichenDots said:

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Common knowledge for anyone that knows about Iran.

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I know about Iran. Geography, historical culture, theocratic authoritarian rule. Persian and not Arab. I can tell you about their resource issues. Electrical infrastructure issues. Good bit about their navy, military, irgc and the basiq. Their entire history in detail up from Cyrus, Darius fighting the Magi, right on through Marathon, Alexander (damn Roxanna…a descendent of Alexander and Cyrus would have been doubly great) on through the most fascinating and last war of the classic era, through the caliphate.

I didn't know at their goofy religious beliefs today,

So no, I would not say it's common knowledge unless that's a point of interest for you. Knowing they were Islamic crazy was enough.

Iranian history and knowledge is not what goofy **** has happened in the last 45+ years. If the history of Iran were a day with today being midnight. The Iranian hostage crisis occurred around 11:45pm.

Persia has existed almost 1,000,000 days. It's been 17,000 days since these nutters showed up.

So clearly… the knowledge of Iran hinged on knowing that. I feel foolish.

If you happen to want to to understand the nature of Islam in the area, this course touched on it quite a bit throughout. Though Iran is technically not Central Asia, the mix of cultures that combined Islam and violent nomadic societies is reflected in today's radical Islam.

https://shop.thegreatcourses.com/crossroads-of-civilization-a-history-of-central-asia

TOUCHDOWN! said:

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Surprising how similar the "end of the world" beliefs are between Muslims and evangelical Christians. Both groups seem to be actively trying bring about the return of their savior to lead them through the end times.

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But only one is attempting to acquire the means to immolate half the world's population in order to do it.

aggiehawg said:

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Aggiefan#1 said:

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I've never heard of that.

Is that typical Islamic belief system?

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Arab based Islamicists, yes. Muslim Brotherhood stuff. So anything (like a Constitution) from 1979 on is Arab based, not Persian. And that is a big difference.

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What this thread is discussing is Twelver Shia Islam philosophy. The 12th Imam coming back as a messiah. This is not Muslim Botherhood/Syed Qtub theology, though they have similarities wrt the idea that Western influence has polluted the Islamic lands and it must be removed, and the idea of eventual world domination by Muslims which is a fairly broad belief across Islam. Also the Muslim Brotherhood is Sunni. Shia and Sunni believe a different direct descendant of Mohammed became the next Imam, and the schism that happened after Mohammed died is alive and well today.

mjschiller said:

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There are 12er's in our country now.

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NYC Mayor Mamdani is an adherent of Twelver theology.

VarkAg77 said:

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TOUCHDOWN! said:

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Surprising how similar the "end of the world" beliefs are between Muslims and evangelical Christians. Both groups seem to be actively trying bring about the return of their savior to lead them through the end times.

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But only one is attempting to acquire the means to immolate half the world's population in order to do it.

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Well…technically. The Christian Dispensationalist just use Isreal to do it but the goal is the same.

They aren't quite as insane as Irans regime but it's not a crazy conclusion without merit to come to.

The Mormons are the Christian Dispensationalists of Christianity.

No, that's close but not quite it.

Christian Dispensationalists are the Afghan Goat herders of Christianity. Just ignorant.

Yeah… that's the best analogy.

NE PA Ag said:

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mjschiller said:

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There are 12er's in our country now.

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NYC Mayor Mamdani is an adherent of Twelver theology.

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Ok, that's just not true. At least there is no public account of it being true.

CrackerJackAg said:

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NE PA Ag said:

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mjschiller said:

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There are 12er's in our country now.

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NYC Mayor Mamdani is an adherent of Twelver theology.

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Ok, that's just not true. At least there is no public account of it being true.

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How about a tweet directly from the man:

Got mad love for my Ismaili’s but I’m actually Ithna-Asheri 😊

— Zohran Kwame Mamdani (@ZohranKMamdani) November 26, 2019

Ithna-Asheri is Twelver Shi'ism

I have been telling you this for YEARS now on this forum!!

Decay said:

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My experience with Islam comes from Dune

Edit to add: it seems pretty spot on about worshipping false Gods

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Mahdi was indeed the name the inhabitants gave to the protagonist of Dune. Mahdi = the one that will lead us to paradise.

Kansas Kid said:

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There is a reason I have always felt Iran is the one country that could have nukes and use it preemptively as opposed to as a deterrent.

I wish a number of other countries didn't have them but I think their leadership wants to stay alive and think more rationally (including Kim Jong Un) so they are very unlikely to launch without provocation.

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Bingo. At least the Un's seem to understand mutuallly assured destruction. They want to rule the world, not destroy it. While this generalization sets aside a mountain of nuance, this is how I (very recently) explained the haves and have-nots to my curious pre-teen.

CrackerJackAg said:

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VarkAg77 said:

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TOUCHDOWN! said:

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Surprising how similar the "end of the world" beliefs are between Muslims and evangelical Christians. Both groups seem to be actively trying bring about the return of their savior to lead them through the end times.

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But only one is attempting to acquire the means to immolate half the world's population in order to do it.

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Well…technically. The Christian Dispensationalist just use Isreal to do it but the goal is the same.

They aren't quite as insane as Irans regime but it's not a crazy conclusion without merit to come to.

The Mormons are the Christian Dispensationalists of Christianity.

No, that's close but not quite it.

Christian Dispensationalists are the Afghan Goat herders of Christianity. Just ignorant.

Yeah… that's the best analogy.

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There's a huge difference in "reading the tea leaves" to fit what's happening today into your theology/prophecy (Christian Dispensationalists) and quite another to actively work toward it (Iran's mullahs). I'm not saying there aren't fringe Christian movements that are trying to do this, but that is not the same as the political leadership of an entire country doing it.

Before you comment on it, supporting Israel because you believe in the prophecy that the second coming of Jesus is tied to Israel's existence (and that God will bless those that support Israel), is completely different than the actions of the Mullahs in Iran.

NE PA Ag said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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VarkAg77 said:

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TOUCHDOWN! said:

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Surprising how similar the "end of the world" beliefs are between Muslims and evangelical Christians. Both groups seem to be actively trying bring about the return of their savior to lead them through the end times.

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But only one is attempting to acquire the means to immolate half the world's population in order to do it.

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Well…technically. The Christian Dispensationalist just use Isreal to do it but the goal is the same.

They aren't quite as insane as Irans regime but it's not a crazy conclusion without merit to come to.

The Mormons are the Christian Dispensationalists of Christianity.

No, that's close but not quite it.

Christian Dispensationalists are the Afghan Goat herders of Christianity. Just ignorant.

Yeah… that's the best analogy.

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There's a huge difference in "reading the tea leaves" to fit what's happening today into your theology/prophecy (Christian Dispensationalists) and quite another to actively work toward it (Iran's mullahs). I'm not saying there aren't fringe Christian movements that are trying to do this, but that is not the same as the political leadership of an entire country doing it.

Before you comment on it, supporting Israel because you believe in the prophecy that the second coming of Jesus is tied to Israel's existence (and that God will bless those that support Israel), is completely different than the actions of the Mullahs in Iran.

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There are a lot of self-described Christians that can't be bothered to open their Bible and read the scriptures they claim to believe. Those who read the scriptures are not in any way under the misperception that they can "bring about" judgment day.

Quote:

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Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

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My favorite answer in business school was "you are assuming rationality". People are not rational actors which is why there is a field of study focused on behavior economics. People make up institutions. Assuming anyone, especially nation states, are rational actors is a false assumption. Never assume rationality.

Thanks to all those who have contributed to the thread. I've learned quite a bit reading through it.

Burdizzo said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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Is Mahdi like a Persian Madea?

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I wonder if the 12th Imam stands during the jihad

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And uncovers.

Biz Ag said:

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Burdizzo said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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Is Mahdi like a Persian Madea?

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I wonder if the 12th Imam stands during the jihad

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And uncovers.

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Only the menfolk uncover

Biz Ag said:

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Burdizzo said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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Is Mahdi like a Persian Madea?

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I wonder if the 12th Imam stands during the jihad

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And uncovers.

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I thought uncover nazis were finally dead

Quote:

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Only the menfolk uncover

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Well played.