doubledog said:

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Dealers do provide mechanical service of your auto at a premium price. That is worth something.

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I think Carvana now sells Dodge vehicles online in Texas, based in Dallas. Very nice. Handle everything online, they deliver the vehicle, go to your local dealer for service and recalls.

Tesla is a Texas dealer in name only. You buy the car without any negotiations. You pick it up and one location per major city. You can't get ahold of the salesman that you made the deal with and he doesn't necessarily work in the area anyhow.

And yes we need to allow the dealership model to be decapitated. But it will mean we lose a ton of employment in that sector....which means margins/prices will drop as dealers can only compete on two things; price and availability.

doubledog said:

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Dealers do provide mechanical service of your auto at a premium price. That is worth something.

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They charge less per hour for warranty work than for non-warranty work. That is the deal they make to get exclusive rights to provide warranty work for the manufacturer. That is why mechanics would rather do non warranty work.

Some states have been trying to make it so dealers get the same pay for warranty work as non warranty work. If they do that, then the manufacturers need to start certifying independent repair shops to do warranty work, which would save consumers money.

Dealerships need to die imo.

YouBet said:

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I wonder if we were able to bypass dealers what that would look like. Seems like the manufacturers may not actually want that because it's one more thing they have to manage, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

I would assume many existing dealers would simply just convert over and it wouldn't look all that much different going there. You are still going to need many of them for maintenance and repairs. A lot of independent auto shops can't / won't touch newer vehicles in some cases. We have a local transmission shop and the guy won't touch anything newer than about 2015.

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I guess he plans on retiring soon. That's like setting a time on the life of your own business.

Jeeper79 said:

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YouBet said:

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I wonder if we were able to bypass dealers what that would look like. Seems like the manufacturers may not actually want that because it's one more thing they have to manage, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

I would assume many existing dealers would simply just convert over and it wouldn't look all that much different going there. You are still going to need many of them for maintenance and repairs. A lot of independent auto shops can't / won't touch newer vehicles in some cases. We have a local transmission shop and the guy won't touch anything newer than about 2015.

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I guess he plans on retiring soon. That's like setting a time on the life of your own business.

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Could be but I've seen other guys who simply don't want to mess with the sophistication of today's cars. So maybe it's more accurate to say it's a barrier of entry for independents to stay up to snuff on modern cars.

YouBet said:

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I wonder if we were able to bypass dealers what that would look like. Seems like the manufacturers may not actually want that because it's one more thing they have to manage, but maybe I'm wrong on that.

I would assume many existing dealers would simply just convert over and it wouldn't look all that much different going there. You are still going to need many of them for maintenance and repairs.

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Agree with this. I think it might not look much different.

Even if the manufacturer sells direct, a dealership buying 30+ vehicles a month is going to get a lower price than a consumer purchasing a single vehicle. So there will still be margin available for them, to maintain stock.

Distributors exist for a reason. Even if you can buy direct, I'd venture to guess it would still be easier to buy through a local dealership.

Often people want/need a vehicle right away, and doesn't want to wait weeks on end, for their purchase to arrive. And I like to test drive the vehicle before I buy. I've driven many cars I was interested in, but passed on after driving.

Not to mention the service/warranty aspect. No way manufacturers have the capacity to deal with that nationwide, direct with the consumer.

Two pages and not one good reason we should have to buy a vehicle from a dealership

BCSWguru said:

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Two pages and not one good reason we should have to buy a vehicle from a dealership

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Not about "have to" but there may be practical, logistical reasons that a direct model might not look much different.

One thing dealers do provide is a buffer and rope a dope for the manufacturers. The dealers can deny providing warranty service, essentially protecting the manufacturer if there are design issues, etc... They do that all the time.

Customer: "Hey my 10 speed transmission is slamming itself and making noises when it shifts. I think something is wrong"

Dealer: "That's the way they are designed to work! Take your vehicle and scat"

J.P. 03 said:

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Good. With all those pesky dealerships and their marketing gimmicks out of the way, maybe now we can finally agree on which of the 12 is actually truck month.

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Ok I laughed out loud in real life with that one. Getting lots of weird looks as a result

Just throwing this out there.... Having a local dealer is nice if you need someone local to help you with issues.

A few posts up, someone suggested that you buy from the brand, and then if you have issues/recalls use the dealers? How does that work, the dealers wont survive if you go around them when you buy the car.

I have a tesla, and the biggest issue I have with the car is dealing with going to Tesla direct.

If you ever want to feel like you are nothing to a brand, buy a Tesla. Anytime you need help or have questions... you get to use the app to send a message and hope you get a reply back in a timely manner... When my battery took a crap on me and left me stranded at a charger, I had to submit a ticket for service and sort out getting a tow truck via the app.

I thing the value of the dealer is the customer support, give up the dealer and its you versus the brand, and the scale that these brands operate at, you are not worth their time.

Hoyt Ag said:

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Well I would hope it would take less time to buy a car than my last experience. Took 5 hours to get everything done.

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FWIW, I now get a letter of credit approved by my credit union before I go into dealership - it cuts the dealership out of all the loan process and I just say no to all the add ons they try to force. Has cut my time down to ~1 hour on the last few vehicle purchases

Valid. Especially when you've been spoiled using someone like Sewell.

AgDad121619 said:

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Hoyt Ag said:

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Well I would hope it would take less time to buy a car than my last experience. Took 5 hours to get everything done.

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FWIW, I now get a letter of credit approved by my credit union before I go into dealership - it cuts the dealership out of all the loan process and I just say no to all the add ons they try to force. Has cut my time down to ~1 hour on the last few vehicle purchases

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Paid cash for last car. It still took longer than it needed to.

Foamcows said:

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Just throwing this out there.... Having a local dealer is nice if you need someone local to help you with issues.

A few posts up, someone suggested that you buy from the brand, and then if you have issues/recalls use the dealers? How does that work, the dealers wont survive if you go around them when you buy the car.

I have a tesla, and the biggest issue I have with the car is dealing with going to Tesla direct.

If you ever want to feel like you are nothing to a brand, buy a Tesla. Anytime you need help or have questions... you get to use the app to send a message and hope you get a reply back in a timely manner... When my battery took a crap on me and left me stranded at a charger, I had to submit a ticket for service and sort out getting a tow truck via the app.

I thing the value of the dealer is the customer support, give up the dealer and its you versus the brand, and the scale that these brands operate at, you are not worth their time.

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The manufacturers would certify independent auto shops to service their vehicles under warranty. You would not be without help.

As far as your example, how does a dealer help if my car bonks out and I need a tow?! It's not like I call a phone number and I get some white glove treatment where they dispatch a tow truck, haul my vehicle to a dealer, give me a ride home, etc.. I have to take care of all that just like Tesla owners do.

Kansas Kid said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Over_ed said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Over_ed said:

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Claude! said:

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Other than protectionism for dealers, what's the justification today for not allowing manufacturers to sell directly to consumers?

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Dealers say that they protect consumers, lower costs, provide service, etc... :-)

But dealers can survive only because laws give consumers no alternative.

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Or government governs the way we live in too many ways, this, like forcing us law abiding citizens to buy auto insurance, is one of them.

But our politicians work for us, they say.

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I agree, but clarified a bit. If you have an accident nowadays, a whole lot of drivers don't have insurance.

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True, but that should be our decision to buy, not forced because private companies and their Lobbyists bought politicians to get this law created and passed.

There's plenty of uninsured Americans, illegals, etc, and I am glad I have insurance. No one should make it illegal for me to choose not to protect myself.

Rant over. Carry on.

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Liability insurance doesn't protect you, it protects who you hit. It's easy to be uninsured and simply not pay, in which case the other person is screwed. Either we require insurance, and vigorously enforce it, or we change asset protection and homesteading laws to allow for the seizure of personal property to satisfy a judgement.

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You could change the laws but for most uninsured drivers, it doesn't matter because they have no assets. This is one place I agree with government requiring a purchase despite being a libertarian on economic matters for the reasons you raise.

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Yeah, that's the issue. Operating a 3000 pound vehicle at 70mph creates a lot of potential liability for ****ing it up, but plenty of people don't have the assets to cover putting someone else in the hospital and destroying their vehicle if they do. IMO, driving without insurance should be jail time if you're in a wreck and impoundment if you're caught during a traffic stop. Knowingly providing false or expired insurance should be a felony.

oldag00 said:

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Jeeper79 said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Over_ed said:

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Claude! said:

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Other than protectionism for dealers, what's the justification today for not allowing manufacturers to sell directly to consumers?

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Dealers say that they protect consumers, lower costs, provide service, etc... :-)

But dealers can survive only because laws give consumers no alternative.

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Or government governs the way we live in too many ways, this, like forcing us to buy auto insurance, is one of them.

But our politicians work for us, they say.

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Forcing us to buy insurance is protection for whoever we hit. Having been hit by an uninsured motorist before, I appreciate it.

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Does not compute.

Responsible people buy insurance. Irresponsible drivers, like the uninsured motorist that hit you, won't despite a law saying they must.

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Correct, in that laws dont prevent anything. They outline the punishment if you disobey said law.

Foamcows said:

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Just throwing this out there.... Having a local dealer is nice if you need someone local to help you with issues.

A few posts up, someone suggested that you buy from the brand, and then if you have issues/recalls use the dealers? How does that work, the dealers wont survive if you go around them when you buy the car.

I have a tesla, and the biggest issue I have with the car is dealing with going to Tesla direct.

If you ever want to feel like you are nothing to a brand, buy a Tesla. Anytime you need help or have questions... you get to use the app to send a message and hope you get a reply back in a timely manner... When my battery took a crap on me and left me stranded at a charger, I had to submit a ticket for service and sort out getting a tow truck via the app.

I thing the value of the dealer is the customer support, give up the dealer and its you versus the brand, and the scale that these brands operate at, you are not worth their time.

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Well said.

It's really dumb. Bought our last vehicle in cash from a high service dealership and still took 4 hours. We had the cashier's check in hand when we walked in for the agreed upon price as well. Didn't even have any haggling the day of.

No Spin Ag said:

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Over_ed said:

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Claude! said:

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Other than protectionism for dealers, what's the justification today for not allowing manufacturers to sell directly to consumers?

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Dealers say that they protect consumers, lower costs, provide service, etc... :-)

But dealers can survive only because laws give consumers no alternative.

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Or government governs the way we live in too many ways, this, like forcing us to buy auto insurance, is one of them.

But our politicians work for us, they say.

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it's the ultimate irony that in Texas you are required to have insurance and that insurance has to include uninsured driver insurance in case you are hit by a driver who was required to have insurance but doesn't.

Disagree. Dealers would survive because the service department is a much larger money maker than selling cars. If they were smart, they might like moving to a pure service model. Smaller real estate. Smaller staffs. Less overhead.

in an AI world with blockchain

most of the tasks could be done via the computer

imagine being able to save $2000 on every car you buy just by not having to pay the salesman cost

Was driving in to the airport early yesterday morning, listening to a.m. radio, and Randy Adams was on. I love his car show, however, I'm not sure exactly what I was listening to. It seemed to be a mix of his belief and love in Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior and cars. Randy was going off on car dealers and he owns a dealership. From auctions to repair services to trade-ins Randy was just ripping them as being unscrupulous.

Foamcows said:

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Just throwing this out there.... Having a local dealer is nice if you need someone local to help you with issues.

A few posts up, someone suggested that you buy from the brand, and then if you have issues/recalls use the dealers? How does that work, the dealers wont survive if you go around them when you buy the car.

I have a tesla, and the biggest issue I have with the car is dealing with going to Tesla direct.

If you ever want to feel like you are nothing to a brand, buy a Tesla. Anytime you need help or have questions... you get to use the app to send a message and hope you get a reply back in a timely manner... When my battery took a crap on me and left me stranded at a charger, I had to submit a ticket for service and sort out getting a tow truck via the app.

I thing the value of the dealer is the customer support, give up the dealer and its you versus the brand, and the scale that these brands operate at, you are not worth their time.

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My big concern with the current auto sales business model is increasing levels of consolidation of dealerships. I watched it happen with the ag industry. Market forces resulted in many family owned farm equipment dealers to close. Those dealerships were replaced with regional companies with outlets to serve the customers. This approach meant customer service went to crap because there were no community ties and no competition. Case in point, the John Deere dealers under the Tellus Equipment banner. John Deere makes good equipment. (Expensive), but I have heard a lot of complaints about poor service from Tellus. With regional control under one company, a farmer can't just drive to the next county to get better service.

As the car dealers continue to consolidate, I expect customer service to decline and dishonest, high-pressure, sales to continue.

Logos Stick said:

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Foamcows said:

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Just throwing this out there.... Having a local dealer is nice if you need someone local to help you with issues.

A few posts up, someone suggested that you buy from the brand, and then if you have issues/recalls use the dealers? How does that work, the dealers wont survive if you go around them when you buy the car.

I have a tesla, and the biggest issue I have with the car is dealing with going to Tesla direct.

If you ever want to feel like you are nothing to a brand, buy a Tesla. Anytime you need help or have questions... you get to use the app to send a message and hope you get a reply back in a timely manner... When my battery took a crap on me and left me stranded at a charger, I had to submit a ticket for service and sort out getting a tow truck via the app.

I thing the value of the dealer is the customer support, give up the dealer and its you versus the brand, and the scale that these brands operate at, you are not worth their time.

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The manufacturers would certify independent auto shops to service their vehicles under warranty. You would not be without help.

As far as your example, how does a dealer help if my car bonks out and I need a tow?! It's not like I call a phone number and I get some white glove treatment where they dispatch a tow truck, haul my vehicle to a dealer, give me a ride home, etc.. I have to take care of all that just like Tesla owners do.

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The thing is.... im not seeing that happen with Tesla.. they seem to want to create a monopoly, even to the point you cant buy parts and DIY if you wanted to.

I would love for this to happen, it would be great and solve my biggest pain point with Tesla, but I think Tesla is more interested in selling cars than servicing existing customers. I have run into people with some of the wildest stories while waiting on my car at the Tesla service center.

For reasons I cant understand, Tesla seems to have little/no interest in allowing outside shops access to their bubble. It might be a Tesla quirk.... does anyone know if Rivian (or any other direct to consumer) has authorized 3p service centers that arent owned by Rivian? It really would be a major deciding factor in what car i buy next.

Okay, instead of buying liability insurance, you deposit the full policy limit into a bank account/tax advantaged fund that grows tax free and you keep the gains? Then if you hit someone you pay them out of that account or top it up. Sounds better than paying thousands of dollars per year, forever, for potentially $60k in personal injury coverage.

Quote:

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The manufacturers would certify independent auto shops to service their vehicles under warranty. You would not be without help.

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Sounds good in theory, but speaking from the perspective of someone that repairs parts...that would be an absolute logistical nightmare for the vehicle manufacturers. As we all know, not all service providers are the same, and that's never more true, than with vehicle service providers.

Ever tried to get a repair done, with a 3rd party warranty? And all the parties are arguing about what needs to be done, or not done...while you wait 2 weeks without a car to get an answer? I imagine something similar.

Auto dealerships laws exist because of bond requirements, sales tax, and title laws. By requiring a licensed and bonded company to post a bond, gather the sales tax, and manage the title, you can also assure that MOST of the time these requirements will be followed. If they screw it up, the State pulls the bond.

The average new car cost exceeds 60k now. With sales tax at 6.75% the State wants a bond protecting THE STATE'S INTEREST. A car company on a new car is collecting about 4k per car, and the bond protects the State if they don't pay it. If some nationwide company sells direct the State isn't protected. Simple as that.


So none of this is a protection scheme for dealership owners. Just like most laws they are based on something. State of Texas doesn't want a bunch of people gathering THEIR money without some assurance that they will get THEIR money. Hence... the dealership model.


Tesla is the first company that even wanted to sell directly. Most car makers don't want to be title processing companies, they want it simplified.

Jason C. said:

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Okay, instead of buying liability insurance, you deposit the full policy limit into a bank account/tax advantaged fund that grows tax free and you keep the gains? Then if you hit someone you pay them out of that account or top it up. Sounds better than paying thousands of dollars per year, forever, for potentially $60k in personal injury coverage.

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Many companies and some individuals self-insure. The law allows you to do that. It isn't an "insurance" requirement. It is a "financial responsibility" requirement. The easiest way for most people to fulfill it is to buy an insurance policy.

Did y'all not understand this part of Driver's Ed?

I think a big part of the dealer network has to do with balance sheet management for the manufacturer, right? They have vehicles coming off the line and have to push them downstream, and the unwinding a supply chain for finished goods inventory that has been built into the foundation of the business could be a huge challenge to unwind...

Could be off base there, but what do you do with all of the inventory if you no longer have dealer lots contractually obliged to receive them?

Kansas Kid said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Over_ed said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Over_ed said:

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Claude! said:

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Other than protectionism for dealers, what's the justification today for not allowing manufacturers to sell directly to consumers?

---

Dealers say that they protect consumers, lower costs, provide service, etc... :-)

But dealers can survive only because laws give consumers no alternative.

---

Or government governs the way we live in too many ways, this, like forcing us law abiding citizens to buy auto insurance, is one of them.

But our politicians work for us, they say.

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I agree, but clarified a bit. If you have an accident nowadays, a whole lot of drivers don't have insurance.

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True, but that should be our decision to buy, not forced because private companies and their Lobbyists bought politicians to get this law created and passed.

There's plenty of uninsured Americans, illegals, etc, and I am glad I have insurance. No one should make it illegal for me to choose not to protect myself.

Rant over. Carry on.

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Liability insurance doesn't protect you, it protects who you hit. It's easy to be uninsured and simply not pay, in which case the other person is screwed. Either we require insurance, and vigorously enforce it, or we change asset protection and homesteading laws to allow for the seizure of personal property to satisfy a judgement.

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You could change the laws but for most uninsured drivers, it doesn't matter because they have no assets. This is one place I agree with government requiring a purchase despite being a libertarian on economic matters for the reasons you raise.

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True for way too many. I'd also support garnishment of wages and any other payment for those unable to pay what they owe for damages to the property of others when they had no insurance. Have a database of who owes what, check prior to making payment, deduct whatever percentage or amount is allowable by law. Keep taking some percentage of their earnings until they get it paid in full.

exactly. the manufacturers like the dealer model, too.

It's much much much easier from them to deal with 100s of dealerships rather than a million consumer customers. They have huge leverage over the dealers and make money by floor-planning inventory.

That said, if a manufacturer wanted a different structure - like Tesla - they should be allowed to do it.

knoxtom said:

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The average new car cost exceeds 60k now.

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I thought this was a crazy number, so I looked it up.

Found this online, from Consumer Affairs (from October 2025):

Quote:

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In 2019, the average cost of a new car was a little over $36,000...Average new-vehicle manufacturer's suggested retail prices also hit an all-time high last month [10/2025], reaching $52,183

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Good gosh almighty.

A 45% increase in cost, in 6 years. That is astronomical.

Granted, those numbers come from MSRP, and not final sales price...but holy smokes. I feel for the young people trying to afford life these days.

All dealerships are basically Two Halves: Variable Operations (Sales, F&I, etc aka "the front end") and Fixed Operations (Service, Parts, aka "the back end").

The defenses so far seem to be surrounding aspects of fixed operations, particularly Service. We could live in a world where we cut out the front and just have the back.

The only reason we don't live in that world already is due to laws protecting the wallets of dealership families and preserving the critical role of "my first job in sales"