I'll bet they don't do it twice.

gigemtxag2025 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

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Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

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Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

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Did you or are you serving?

No one should really care as long as the pilots aren't wasting money on fuel and it is part of the standard training flights.

Small deviations are inevitable.

Crying over spilled milk

Any news story to bring down the current administration....

...but can we get a news story against the left, against Iran, anything pro-America?

...well, there you go.

Orwell was spot on again with the daily engagement of the simple minded who yell at a TV screen watching them in return.

gigemtxag2025 said:

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12th Man said:

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The pearl-clutching over this is ridiculous. Military aviators have done shiite like this since the dawn of aviation, and as long as you do it safely, no biggie; even if you stretch things a bit.

I made multiple passes in excess of 300 knots over my family at my lake house in Door County, I overflew my wife on her drive home after she'd driven out to see me on a cross-country, and I did lots of sight-seeing in my career. This thing's way, way overblown.

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No one is pearl-clutching over pilots doing pilot stuff. The issue is that the Army initiated an AR 15-6 administrative investigation, suspended the crews as is standard procedure, and then the Secretary of Defense personally killed that investigation and lifted the suspensions before it ran its course. That's not how any of your anecdotes were handled.

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There's the problem right there! We need permanent ban on all Assault Style Administrative Investigations!

12th Man said:

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The pearl-clutching over this is ridiculous. Military aviators have done shiite like this since the dawn of aviation, and as long as you do it safely, no biggie; even if you stretch things a bit.

I made multiple passes in excess of 300 knots over my family at my lake house in Door County, I overflew my wife on her drive home after she'd driven out to see me on a cross-country, and I did lots of sight-seeing in my career. This thing's way, way overblown.

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oh no!

not a military flyby

only been going on since planes could get off the ground!

Pizza said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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Pizza said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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Imagine being an Army aviator who got disciplined for an unauthorized deviation from a flight plan and then watching these crews get a personal pass from the Secretary of Defense because they buzzed a celebrity's pool. Great way to destroy unit discipline and good order. The regs exist for a reason. Even Trump said you shouldn't be playing games with military aircraft.

Same Secretary of Defense that stood at Quantico and preached about being competent and professional turned around and told every pilot in the Army that rules don't apply if the right people are watching. But hey, celebrity got a helicopter show at his pool, so guess we should be celebrating.

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Meh. You created a hypothetical because no examples were cited.

I decided to look up a few, and it usually involves jets over stadiums....
Very very different scenarios.

I'm cool with it, and I think most rational people are as well.

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The hypothetical illustrates the principle of the Secretary of Defense personally overriding the Army's own disciplinary process based on who's politically connected. Whether it's a flight deviation over a stadium or a pool doesn't change what happened procedurally, even if you're "cool with it." See my last comment.

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Still don't see an issue with it.

We have judges in this country violating law all the time, a former president who threw our border wide open for drug/human trafficking etc.

Society is being entertained to death...which is why "some people" focus on something incredibly silly like a flyover, while the foundations of established Society & World Order are shaking.

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That's exactly the point. However small it may seem, when the Secretary of Defense publicly bends the rules for the politically connected, it's not just one investigation, but a signal to the entire force about how the system actually works.

12th Man said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

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Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

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Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

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I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

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Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

gigemtxag2025 said:

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Teslag said:

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ApachePilot said:

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My only reservation would be FAA regs possibly broken. Other than that this stuff never bothers me. It's always a gamble when you do this stuff that the wrong person sees it. Lots of Karen's out there.

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As an Apache pilot, you feel this will destroy army aviation morale as that one poster claimed?

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I said discipline and good order, not morale, which are different things. Same guy who stood at Quantico speaking about standards, professionalism, and holding personnel accountable killed an investigation before it finished because the guy they buzzed is politically connected. Don't doubt you can be in great spirits and still be in a system where the rules are applied selectively.

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Spoken words from Frank Burns.

Couple of years ago at my son's HS baseball game, an Apache slowly over flew the field. It was buzzing around and purposely turned and slowly flew by at about 800'.

To keep it military related, "Lighten up Francis!"

And not disappointed in this happening at Kid Rock's place, but doing it at Rocky the Dog's place would have earned one heck of a meme string!!

It really is no big deal. I can only speak for Army Aviators but it is in our nature to to do stuff like this. When I was in flight school the primary trainer was the TH-55. A little recip powered trainer. There were guys linking up on cross-country solos doing approaches and landings on top of water towers in rural Alabama. We didn't even have our wings yet. When found out, they were told, "Don't do that again". I'll admit, the times were different.

During '76 football season, a Cobra from Fort Hood buzzed Kyle, flying about the level of the upper deck light standards (Back when there were 2 decks). Would have gotten away with it but the March In Reviewing Officer was the CG of the 6th ACCB at Fort Hood and got his tail number. CPT got a nice (_,_) chewing on Monday. Some Aggie from the 7-17 Cav. It was a different Army back then. I was there and knew some guys in the ACCB who relayed the AAR to me. Was at the game, too. Thought it was pretty cool, really.

At least they didn't buzz the tower

?itemid=15723175

gigemtxag2025 said:

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12th Man said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

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It's Secretary of War

A couple of Sunday's ago an Apache flew about 30 feet above the surface of the lake in front of my house. Followed by another Apache a couple hundred feet up even closer to my house. I see T38s playing almost every day, but Apaches, that doesn't happen very often.

12th Man said:

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The pearl-clutching over this is ridiculous. Military aviators have done shiite like this since the dawn of aviation, and as long as you do it safely, no biggie; even if you stretch things a bit.

I made multiple passes in excess of 300 knots over my family at my lake house in Door County, I overflew my wife on her drive home after she'd driven out to see me on a cross-country, and I did lots of sight-seeing in my career. This thing's way, way overblown.

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Agreed, it is overblown, but the difference between your flyovers and the Kid Rock situation is yours were almost certainly not general public knowledge. If KR had kept his private helicopter show private those pilots likely would have received only a quiet slap on the wrist and only then if they'd had loose lips about it. Instead, KR did what celebrities do.

Hey, look at me!

Meaning the pilots were also looked at.

Ag00Ag said:

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I can personally attest to some military history of pilots doing unauthorized fly by's.

My dad was a Navy pilot. Flew A7's. For several years we lived in Orange Park, Florida…a town near Jacksonville, close to 1) NAS Jax, 2) Cecil field and 3) Mayport. I went to Lakeside middle school and as you might guess, due to the proximity to 3 Navy bases, there were several kids with dads that were Navy pilots. I can remember at least a dozen times when someone's dad made a low pass fly by and the kid knew there dad was going to do it. My dad did once.

I also recall a squadron party at my house and hearing a bunch of the guys in my dad's squadron joking about the times they did it and getting slapped on the wrist for it.


Edited to add that this would have been 1978-1980.

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Yep, me too, just a different generation. Mine was in the 60's. My dad was an Air Force pilot. He flew in and out of Vietnam for 4 years and would buzz our house on a military housing complex to let us know he was back.

Sq4fish83 said:

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PanzerAggie06 said:

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Sq4fish83 said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

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When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

Bottom line: if this happened under Biden, you wouldn't care. We see right through you.

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.

And if two Apaches hovered over Jane Fonda's pool when Biden was President in celebration of her being a great American and SEcDEF Austin let them off the hook….. well, we all know how you'd react.

We see right through you, indeed.

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Based on your posting history, you can't see at all.

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The great thing about gross hypocrisy is that even the likes of Helen Keller can pick up on it fairly quickly.

PanzerAggie06 said:

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Sq4fish83 said:

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PanzerAggie06 said:

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Sq4fish83 said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

Bottom line: if this happened under Biden, you wouldn't care. We see right through you.

---

.

And if two Apaches hovered over Jane Fonda's pool when Biden was President in celebration of her being a great American and SEcDEF Austin let them off the hook….. well, we all know how you'd react.

We see right through you, indeed.

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Based on your posting history, you can't see at all.

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The great thing about gross hypocrisy is that even the likes of Helen Keller can pick up on it fairly quickly.

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Where exactly is the hypocrisy? You made up a scenario that doesn't exist and projected your conclusion to said non-existent scenario.

How close are you to Austin? It may have been part of the flyover from MotoGP going home.

maverick2076 said:

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How close are you to Austin? It may have been part of the flyover from MotoGP going home.

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It was over Lake Cherokee, just south of Longview and KGGG. It's not uncommon to see them on the ramp at KGGG and occasionally flying, but I've never seen them flying low level like that. UH-60s fly in regularly, with occasional CH-47 and CH-53 flyovers.

Seems the level of outrage over this depends on one's political persuasion. Dems and Never Trumpers are upset. Everyone else is cool with it.

Rank has its privileges!

Price of gas just went up more near me - bad
HEB cut a lot of prices - good


Way more important to me than this **** ever will be.

techno-ag said:

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Seems the level of outrage over this depends on one's political persuasion. Dems and Never Trumpers are upset. Everyone else is cool with it.

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It's all about chicken littles crying anytime they can sling mud towards the Trump administration. These same people wouldn't GAF if there were a Democrat president in office. You can not be a leftist or a RINO without being a giant hypocrite. I really have ZERO respect for these people.

gigemtxag2025 said:

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12th Man said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

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Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.