AggiePops said:

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12th Man said:

---

The pearl-clutching over this is ridiculous. Military aviators have done shiite like this since the dawn of aviation, and as long as you do it safely, no biggie; even if you stretch things a bit.

I made multiple passes in excess of 300 knots over my family at my lake house in Door County, I overflew my wife on her drive home after she'd driven out to see me on a cross-country, and I did lots of sight-seeing in my career. This thing's way, way overblown.

---

Agreed, it is overblown, but the difference between your flyovers and the Kid Rock situation is yours were almost certainly not general public knowledge. If KR had kept his private helicopter show private those pilots likely would have received only a quiet slap on the wrist and only then if they'd had loose lips about it. Instead, KR did what celebrities do.

Hey, look at me!

Meaning the pilots were also looked at.

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Imagine being an Army aviator who got disciplined for an unauthorized deviation from a flight plan and then watching these crews get a personal pass from the Secretary of Defense because they buzzed a celebrity's pool. Great way to destroy unit discipline and good order. The regs exist for a reason. Even Trump said you shouldn't be playing games with military aircraft.

Same Secretary of Defense that stood at Quantico and preached about being competent and professional turned around and told every pilot in the Army that rules don't apply if the right people are watching. But hey, celebrity got a helicopter show at his pool, so guess we should be celebrating.

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12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

---

Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.

---

Quote:

---

Dick Bong who would eventually become

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Keller6Ag91 said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Imagine being an Army aviator who got disciplined for an unauthorized deviation from a flight plan and then watching these crews get a personal pass from the Secretary of Defense because they buzzed a celebrity's pool. Great way to destroy unit discipline and good order. The regs exist for a reason. Even Trump said you shouldn't be playing games with military aircraft.

Same Secretary of Defense that stood at Quantico and preached about being competent and professional turned around and told every pilot in the Army that rules don't apply if the right people are watching. But hey, celebrity got a helicopter show at his pool, so guess we should be celebrating.

---

Never watched Top Gun or Maverick I assume?

---

Blackhorse83 said:

---

The bottom line is that Hegseth should have stayed out of it and let nature take its course by allowing the Company/Battalion/Brigade Commander to handle it. Really simple.

Here is an applicable story. Dick Bong who would eventually become the the highest scoring American ace of WWII decided to make a trip under the Golden Gate Bridge then down some streets in San Francisco while still in P38 qualification. He happened to knock down a clothesline in a lady's back yard. She made a complaint and Bong was identified as the offender. He got a severe a$$ ripping from his commander and was made to go take care of the lady's laundry and told if anything like that happened again he was done. There is a process and it does not involve the SecDef.

---

jrdaustin said:

---

Blackhorse83 said:

---

The bottom line is that Hegseth should have stayed out of it and let nature take its course by allowing the Company/Battalion/Brigade Commander to handle it. Really simple.

Here is an applicable story. Dick Bong who would eventually become the the highest scoring American ace of WWII decided to make a trip under the Golden Gate Bridge then down some streets in San Francisco while still in P38 qualification. He happened to knock down a clothesline in a lady's back yard. She made a complaint and Bong was identified as the offender. He got a severe a$$ ripping from his commander and was made to go take care of the lady's laundry and told if anything like that happened again he was done. There is a process and it does not involve the SecDef.

---

Actually a great example. So please tell us, was the a$$ ripping by Bong's commander the result of a formal inquiry into his actions, or did the commander simply "handle it", as you say?

These details are important.

---

jrdaustin said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

---

Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.

---

FDR did not intervene before the Board of Inquiry. The process played out, the findings were made, and then the President pardoned what was determined to be an accident, which is the opposite of what Hegseth did. Your statement is not accurate.

As for the Olds story: nobody would argue against a pilot making a life-or-death call in combat, but this is a routine peacetime administrative review of a flight deviation that Hegseth killed for political reasons. Using a survival story from Vietnam to justify that is a stretch. Still waiting on an example.

---

Your entire argument here is a massive red herring relying upon a technicality to criticize Hegseth's actions. It reminds me of the similar of tactics used to fabricate a never-before-used legal theory in order to obtain a conviction of Trump for numerous "felonies" - all because of how expenses were internally recorded in ledgers never intended to be audited or public.

Fact 1: Military pilots have used "discretion" for years while training to do harmless things that aren't techinically "by the book", and most get a slap on the wrist for it, if any rebuke at all.

Fact 2: The actions these specific pilots took fell under the same type of actions described in Fact 1.

Fact 3: Someone - we don't know exactly who - initiated a 15-6 inquiry rather than an informal Commander's inquiry to obtain the facts surrounding this incident. An action that would normally be handled by a severe ass chewing was blown from a molehill into a mountain, with cheering critics - yourself included - jumping into the mob with torches lit and pitchforks ready.

Fact 4: SOW recognized the whole thing as an aforesead molehill and put the kebosh on the whole thing.

And here you are, crying foul because the 15-6 wasn't allowed to be carried to completion. Was anyone hurt? Was there damage to equipment or property? Was the safety of civilians at risk? Answers to all of the above is a resounding NO. The 15-6 was never warranted, as determined by SOW.

So in summary, please give it a rest.

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

---

Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.

---

FDR did not intervene before the Board of Inquiry. The process played out, the findings were made, and then the President pardoned what was determined to be an accident, which is the opposite of what Hegseth did. Your statement is not accurate.

As for the Olds story: nobody would argue against a pilot making a life-or-death call in combat, but this is a routine peacetime administrative review of a flight deviation that Hegseth killed for political reasons. Using a survival story from Vietnam to justify that is a stretch. Still waiting on an example.

---

Your entire argument here is a massive red herring relying upon a technicality to criticize Hegseth's actions. It reminds me of the similar of tactics used to fabricate a never-before-used legal theory in order to obtain a conviction of Trump for numerous "felonies" - all because of how expenses were internally recorded in ledgers never intended to be audited or public.

Fact 1: Military pilots have used "discretion" for years while training to do harmless things that aren't techinically "by the book", and most get a slap on the wrist for it, if any rebuke at all.

Fact 2: The actions these specific pilots took fell under the same type of actions described in Fact 1.

Fact 3: Someone - we don't know exactly who - initiated a 15-6 inquiry rather than an informal Commander's inquiry to obtain the facts surrounding this incident. An action that would normally be handled by a severe ass chewing was blown from a molehill into a mountain, with cheering critics - yourself included - jumping into the mob with torches lit and pitchforks ready.

Fact 4: SOW recognized the whole thing as an aforesead molehill and put the kebosh on the whole thing.

And here you are, crying foul because the 15-6 wasn't allowed to be carried to completion. Was anyone hurt? Was there damage to equipment or property? Was the safety of civilians at risk? Answers to all of the above is a resounding NO. The 15-6 was never warranted, as determined by SOW.

So in summary, please give it a rest.

---

The Army initiated the 15-6. Not critics, not the media, and not me. The 101st's own chain of command made that call because that's their procedure for reviewing potential flight reg violations.

Hegseth didn't determine the 15-6 was unwarranted after reviewing the facts. Killed it via an X post before any findings were made. Can't claim an investigation was unnecessary if it was never allowed to reach a conclusion.

Whether these pilots deserved a slap on the wrist or nothing at all was exactly what the process was there to determine.

---

GAC06 said:

---

Those are excellent documentaries

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

---

Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.

---

FDR did not intervene before the Board of Inquiry. The process played out, the findings were made, and then the President pardoned what was determined to be an accident, which is the opposite of what Hegseth did. Your statement is not accurate.

As for the Olds story: nobody would argue against a pilot making a life-or-death call in combat, but this is a routine peacetime administrative review of a flight deviation that Hegseth killed for political reasons. Using a survival story from Vietnam to justify that is a stretch. Still waiting on an example.

---

Your entire argument here is a massive red herring relying upon a technicality to criticize Hegseth's actions. It reminds me of the similar of tactics used to fabricate a never-before-used legal theory in order to obtain a conviction of Trump for numerous "felonies" - all because of how expenses were internally recorded in ledgers never intended to be audited or public.

Fact 1: Military pilots have used "discretion" for years while training to do harmless things that aren't techinically "by the book", and most get a slap on the wrist for it, if any rebuke at all.

Fact 2: The actions these specific pilots took fell under the same type of actions described in Fact 1.

Fact 3: Someone - we don't know exactly who - initiated a 15-6 inquiry rather than an informal Commander's inquiry to obtain the facts surrounding this incident. An action that would normally be handled by a severe ass chewing was blown from a molehill into a mountain, with cheering critics - yourself included - jumping into the mob with torches lit and pitchforks ready.

Fact 4: SOW recognized the whole thing as an aforesead molehill and put the kebosh on the whole thing.

And here you are, crying foul because the 15-6 wasn't allowed to be carried to completion. Was anyone hurt? Was there damage to equipment or property? Was the safety of civilians at risk? Answers to all of the above is a resounding NO. The 15-6 was never warranted, as determined by SOW.

So in summary, please give it a rest.

---

The Army initiated the 15-6. Not critics, not the media, and not me. The 101st's own chain of command made that call because that's their procedure for reviewing potential flight reg violations.

Hegseth didn't determine the 15-6 was unwarranted after reviewing the facts. Killed it via an X post before any findings were made. Can't claim an investigation was unnecessary if it was never allowed to reach a conclusion.

Whether these pilots deserved a slap on the wrist or nothing at all was exactly what the process was there to determine.

---

schmellba99 said:

---

Also, buddy of mine is a dust off pilot (or was, medically retired from flying now). We were joking with him a few weeks ago about how he didn't have the stones to grab one of the Blackhawks from Hood and pick us up for some aerial gunnery target practice on pigs.

He told us that back in the 70's and 80's he'd have been able to do just that, damn near no questions asked. It wasn't unusual for Huey pilots to take the helos for "undocumented" flights, usually landing in areas really close to their favorite bars, then flying them back after they had some drinks with their buddies.

The people getting all wound up and giving themselves the drizzles over something as small as this are the same types that end up on HOA boards and spend their days driving around looking for violations they can lay on their neighbors for the most chicken sht things because they are miserable in their lives and want everybody else to be equally as miserable. It's stupid.

---

ApachePilot said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

jrdaustin said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

---

Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.

---

FDR did not intervene before the Board of Inquiry. The process played out, the findings were made, and then the President pardoned what was determined to be an accident, which is the opposite of what Hegseth did. Your statement is not accurate.

As for the Olds story: nobody would argue against a pilot making a life-or-death call in combat, but this is a routine peacetime administrative review of a flight deviation that Hegseth killed for political reasons. Using a survival story from Vietnam to justify that is a stretch. Still waiting on an example.

---

Your entire argument here is a massive red herring relying upon a technicality to criticize Hegseth's actions. It reminds me of the similar of tactics used to fabricate a never-before-used legal theory in order to obtain a conviction of Trump for numerous "felonies" - all because of how expenses were internally recorded in ledgers never intended to be audited or public.

Fact 1: Military pilots have used "discretion" for years while training to do harmless things that aren't techinically "by the book", and most get a slap on the wrist for it, if any rebuke at all.

Fact 2: The actions these specific pilots took fell under the same type of actions described in Fact 1.

Fact 3: Someone - we don't know exactly who - initiated a 15-6 inquiry rather than an informal Commander's inquiry to obtain the facts surrounding this incident. An action that would normally be handled by a severe ass chewing was blown from a molehill into a mountain, with cheering critics - yourself included - jumping into the mob with torches lit and pitchforks ready.

Fact 4: SOW recognized the whole thing as an aforesead molehill and put the kebosh on the whole thing.

And here you are, crying foul because the 15-6 wasn't allowed to be carried to completion. Was anyone hurt? Was there damage to equipment or property? Was the safety of civilians at risk? Answers to all of the above is a resounding NO. The 15-6 was never warranted, as determined by SOW.

So in summary, please give it a rest.

---

The Army initiated the 15-6. Not critics, not the media, and not me. The 101st's own chain of command made that call because that's their procedure for reviewing potential flight reg violations.

Hegseth didn't determine the 15-6 was unwarranted after reviewing the facts. Killed it via an X post before any findings were made. Can't claim an investigation was unnecessary if it was never allowed to reach a conclusion.

Whether these pilots deserved a slap on the wrist or nothing at all was exactly what the process was there to determine.

---

Well if you think the Army unit started the investigation with no regard to the political optics and outside pressure I got a bridge to sell you. The military cares deeply about bad press. One of the pilots was a unit commander. They jumped on this fast to reduce blowback. I still stand firm this is not a big deal. When we fly training routes to build flight time we often do something you might find wasteful. I loved flying over Kyle Field and campus. It just depends on the training mission.

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gigemags-99 said:

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PanzerAggie06 said:

---

Sq4fish83 said:

---

PanzerAggie06 said:

---

Sq4fish83 said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

Bottom line: if this happened under Biden, you wouldn't care. We see right through you.

---

.

And if two Apaches hovered over Jane Fonda's pool when Biden was President in celebration of her being a great American and SEcDEF Austin let them off the hook….. well, we all know how you'd react.

We see right through you, indeed.

---

Based on your posting history, you can't see at all.

---

The great thing about gross hypocrisy is that even the likes of Helen Keller can pick up on it fairly quickly.

---

Where exactly is the hypocrisy? You made up a scenario that doesn't exist and projected your conclusion to said non-existent scenario.

---

ApachePilot said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

Also, buddy of mine is a dust off pilot (or was, medically retired from flying now). We were joking with him a few weeks ago about how he didn't have the stones to grab one of the Blackhawks from Hood and pick us up for some aerial gunnery target practice on pigs.

He told us that back in the 70's and 80's he'd have been able to do just that, damn near no questions asked. It wasn't unusual for Huey pilots to take the helos for "undocumented" flights, usually landing in areas really close to their favorite bars, then flying them back after they had some drinks with their buddies.

The people getting all wound up and giving themselves the drizzles over something as small as this are the same types that end up on HOA boards and spend their days driving around looking for violations they can lay on their neighbors for the most chicken sht things because they are miserable in their lives and want everybody else to be equally as miserable. It's stupid.

---

Ya the old timers ruined it for us!! They took it a little too far. But as my IP told me in BCS training, you can do anything you want once. I think I asked him if I could fly under a bridge or land at a girl's house.

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gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

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Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.

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FDR did not intervene before the Board of Inquiry. The process played out, the findings were made, and then the President pardoned what was determined to be an accident, which is the opposite of what Hegseth did. Your statement is not accurate.

As for the Olds story: nobody would argue against a pilot making a life-or-death call in combat, but this is a routine peacetime administrative review of a flight deviation that Hegseth killed for political reasons. Using a survival story from Vietnam to justify that is a stretch. Still waiting on an example.

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ord89 said:

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ApachePilot has the right take here. Not a big deal. Happens more than you might think.

BTW, since the aircraft was crewed by the Commander and the Standardization Pilot, the investigation would have been VERY problematic.

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12th Man said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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12th Man said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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12th Man said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

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Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

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Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

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I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

---

Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.

---

FDR did not intervene before the Board of Inquiry. The process played out, the findings were made, and then the President pardoned what was determined to be an accident, which is the opposite of what Hegseth did. Your statement is not accurate.

As for the Olds story: nobody would argue against a pilot making a life-or-death call in combat, but this is a routine peacetime administrative review of a flight deviation that Hegseth killed for political reasons. Using a survival story from Vietnam to justify that is a stretch. Still waiting on an example.

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You're wrong about how FDR handled the Porter incident. And I gave you an instance where the President -an even higher official than a Cabinet Secretary- weighed in, but you keep blathering on about needing an example from our military history of the powerful weighing in. Dude, I can only point you to it; I can't understand it for you.

In my direct experience, people with your the-Book-uber-alles modus operandi suck the joy out of the wardroom, give good officers a bad name, attach importance to the unimportant, significance to the insignificant, and are as useless as balls on a ham sandwich once the screw gets tightened 1/8th of a turn. I'm somehow certain this point will elude you, joining the lesson Robin Olds taught as well, Alas.

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jrdaustin said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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12th Man said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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12th Man said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

---

Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.

---

FDR did not intervene before the Board of Inquiry. The process played out, the findings were made, and then the President pardoned what was determined to be an accident, which is the opposite of what Hegseth did. Your statement is not accurate.

As for the Olds story: nobody would argue against a pilot making a life-or-death call in combat, but this is a routine peacetime administrative review of a flight deviation that Hegseth killed for political reasons. Using a survival story from Vietnam to justify that is a stretch. Still waiting on an example.

---

Your entire argument here is a massive red herring relying upon a technicality to criticize Hegseth's actions. It reminds me of the similar of tactics used to fabricate a never-before-used legal theory in order to obtain a conviction of Trump for numerous "felonies" - all because of how expenses were internally recorded in ledgers never intended to be audited or public.

Fact 1: Military pilots have used "discretion" for years while training to do harmless things that aren't techinically "by the book", and most get a slap on the wrist for it, if any rebuke at all.

Fact 2: The actions these specific pilots took fell under the same type of actions described in Fact 1.

Fact 3: Someone - we don't know exactly who - initiated a 15-6 inquiry rather than an informal Commander's inquiry to obtain the facts surrounding this incident. An action that would normally be handled by a severe ass chewing was blown from a molehill into a mountain, with cheering critics - yourself included - jumping into the mob with torches lit and pitchforks ready.

Fact 4: SOW recognized the whole thing as an aforesead molehill and put the kebosh on the whole thing.

And here you are, crying foul because the 15-6 wasn't allowed to be carried to completion. Was anyone hurt? Was there damage to equipment or property? Was the safety of civilians at risk? Answers to all of the above is a resounding NO. The 15-6 was never warranted, as determined by SOW.

So in summary, please give it a rest.

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jrdaustin said:

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gigemtxag2025 said:

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12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

12th Man said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

Ellis Wyatt said:

---

gigemtxag2025 said:

---

When has a Secretary of Defense publicly killed an active AR 15-6 before it ran its course?

---

Bahahahahahaha!

How would we ever know? The military existed a long time before the internet and camera phones.

---

Then nobody can claim this has happened "throughout military history" either. And the fact that Hegseth did it publicly on X is exactly what makes it different from a quiet phone call.

---

I can and do absolutely claim that higher-ups have weighed-in and waived due process and/or punishment. Ever heard of the USS William D. Porter?

Oozing sanctimony -such as yours- is concerning.

---

Great example of why this is different. Roosevelt pardoned a sailor after the investigation ran its course and determined it was an accident. Didn't kill the investigation before it finished, which is the whole point. Waiting on your example of a Secretary of Defense killing an active AR 15-6.

---

Your cluebird is holding somewhere removed from the outer marker: the William D. Porter episode isn't about what happened to the torpedo chief's sentence, it's about what happened to the crew: the heaviest of American heavies weighed in BEFORE the Board of Inquiry and returned the ship & her crew to duty.

That happened >80 years ago. How far back does one need to go to disabuse you of the notion that influence from on-high started with Secretary Hegseth's exoneration?

Have you ever read Robin Olds' autobiography? You should. In it he tells a great story about an aerial refueling while returning to base after a mission downtown. He had maybe two minutes worth of gas left when his turn at the boom came up. Just as he positioned his Phantom, the boom retracted and the KC-135's aircraft commander popped up on the net & said, "Sorry- we're bingo and [the rules say when we reach bingo] we have to rtb," Olds pleaded, Olds cajoled, but the officious, book-driven AC refused to refuel Olds' jet because rules; right until Olds radioed, "Okay, then, look, I still have one Sidewinder left, and when I flame out, I'm firing it. At you. Get your chutes ready, boys!"

Plonk, down came the boom, and Olds didn't have to eject over Laos after all.

The moral of the story? The perfumed princes who blindly follow rules have no place in the real world, and their allegiance to the book not only makes them unpopular, it makes them counterproductive and dangerous. Connect the dots however you want, but you're as wrong as a Caffeine-free Diet Mountain Dew about this.

---

FDR did not intervene before the Board of Inquiry. The process played out, the findings were made, and then the President pardoned what was determined to be an accident, which is the opposite of what Hegseth did. Your statement is not accurate.

As for the Olds story: nobody would argue against a pilot making a life-or-death call in combat, but this is a routine peacetime administrative review of a flight deviation that Hegseth killed for political reasons. Using a survival story from Vietnam to justify that is a stretch. Still waiting on an example.

---

Your entire argument here is a massive red herring relying upon a technicality to criticize Hegseth's actions. It reminds me of the similar of tactics used to fabricate a never-before-used legal theory in order to obtain a conviction of Trump for numerous "felonies" - all because of how expenses were internally recorded in ledgers never intended to be audited or public.

Fact 1: Military pilots have used "discretion" for years while training to do harmless things that aren't techinically "by the book", and most get a slap on the wrist for it, if any rebuke at all.

Fact 2: The actions these specific pilots took fell under the same type of actions described in Fact 1.

Fact 3: Someone - we don't know exactly who - initiated a 15-6 inquiry rather than an informal Commander's inquiry to obtain the facts surrounding this incident. An action that would normally be handled by a severe ass chewing was blown from a molehill into a mountain, with cheering critics - yourself included - jumping into the mob with torches lit and pitchforks ready.

Fact 4: SOW recognized the whole thing as an aforesead molehill and put the kebosh on the whole thing.

And here you are, crying foul because the 15-6 wasn't allowed to be carried to completion. Was anyone hurt? Was there damage to equipment or property? Was the safety of civilians at risk? Answers to all of the above is a resounding NO. The 15-6 was never warranted, as determined by SOW.

So in summary, please give it a rest.

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