Haleyscomet50 said:

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If I support you with money, guns, ammo and military equipment you can bet I'm going to tell you what to do. Not being able to stop Israel is like my kids telling me what to do. Not going to fly.

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Pretty sure you are not going to let some crazy fanatic point a live gun at your kids head with no response, either.

Would you have allowed Iran to stockpile 100,000 ballistic missiles to overwhelm Iron Dome and smoke Israel?

BlackGold said:

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I would have told Bibi and Israel to suck bricks and to go it on their own, then try to cut all their funding we dole out to them, kick all of their assets out of our intelligence groups, followed by signing an executive order that said our MIC could no longer sell arms to them and finally made them sign the NPT and WMD Treaties that everyone else on planet earth has. Essentially treat them like all of our other allies.

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And when Iran invades Israel? You cool with the Jews being removed from the desert to the sea? Or, maybe, after Iran has nukes, then we get involved?

BusterAg said:

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Haleyscomet50 said:

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If I support you with money, guns, ammo and military equipment you can bet I'm going to tell you what to do. Not being able to stop Israel is like my kids telling me what to do. Not going to fly.

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Pretty sure you are not going to let some crazy fanatic point a live gun at your kids head with no response, either.

Would you have allowed Iran to stockpile 100,000 ballistic missiles to overwhelm Iron Dome and smoke Israel?

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Yes I would have let the government of Israel fight their own fight, convince their own population that warring with Iran was in their interest and to work out a deal with Iran on their own. They are not America and do not represent me or any of my values. Neither does Iran for that matter so I really don't care what happens to either of them. They're halfway around the world and we have our own problems at home we should be focusing on.

The Iranian government hates the US because we let Israel murder their way through ME. If we put the reigns on Israel and treat them like any other ally, we wouldn't be in this mess.

BusterAg said:

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BlackGold said:

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I would have told Bibi and Israel to suck bricks and to go it on their own, then try to cut all their funding we dole out to them, kick all of their assets out of our intelligence groups, followed by signing an executive order that said our MIC could no longer sell arms to them and finally made them sign the NPT and WMD Treaties that everyone else on planet earth has. Essentially treat them like all of our other allies.

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And when Iran invades Israel? You cool with the Jews being removed from the desert to the sea? Or, maybe, after Iran has nukes, then we get involved?

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I'm almost at the point where I think every country should have nukes as the ultimate deterrent. It prevents uppity nation-state leaders, like Bibi, from invading sovereign nations at their leisure. No one would use them since the repercussions would be getting nuked back.

Well, IIRC, I didn't bang my GF the night before...

So, I'm going to go with Bang my GF...

BlackGold said:

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I would have told Bibi and Israel to suck bricks and to go it on their own, then try to cut all their funding we dole out to them, kick all of their assets out of our intelligence groups, followed by signing an executive order that said our MIC could no longer sell arms to them and finally made them sign the NPT and WMD Treaties that everyone else on planet earth has. Essentially treat them like all of our other allies.

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I thought Bibi was supposed to be dead?

the subtext of your question is that we had no choice, because israel was going to act and iran would retaliate against us.

setting aside for a moment that we now know trump had far more agency in israel's decision than rubio implied, this begs the question of why are we letting israel drag us around by our dicks in the first place?

Equinox said:

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BlackGold said:

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I would have told Bibi and Israel to suck bricks and to go it on their own, then try to cut all their funding we dole out to them, kick all of their assets out of our intelligence groups, followed by signing an executive order that said our MIC could no longer sell arms to them and finally made them sign the NPT and WMD Treaties that everyone else on planet earth has. Essentially treat them like all of our other allies.

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I thought Bibi was supposed to be dead?

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Wel, that's what the interwebs told everyone...

And we know the interwebs is never wrong...

So, all the posters on here telling us that must have been right!!!

Old McDonald said:

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the subtext of your question is that we had no choice, because israel was going to act and iran would retaliate against us.

setting aside for a moment that we now know trump had far more agency in israel's decision than rubio implied, this begs the question of why are we letting israel drag us around by our dicks in the first place?

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Well...

It's obviously because all the Republicans are controlled by the JOOS!

BusterAg said:

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One thing that is overlooked here is that the Iranian strategy of stockpiling conventional (non-nuke) ballistic missiles in mass was a new strategy for them.

They had the bright idea that, if they weren't making a nuke, they could just stockpile 100,000 conventional ballistic missiles to overwhelm Iron Dome and hold the ME hostage that way and no one would respond.

That was a new strategy for them.

If that was left alone, it likely would have worked.

Allowing them to do that would have been a bad, bad, bad idea.

Israel is smart enough to know that. And, they had good enough intelligence to know that was the plan. They promised Rubio that if they attacked, the front-line IRGC would launch missiles indiscriminately in retaliation. Guess what, they were right. Trump decided to take out as many of those missiles before they were launched as he could. While the SoH thing is a bit of a mess right now, I just have a very hard time second guessing that decision to destroy the missiles that Iran did have before they were launched.

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This is exactly North Korea's game plan. They couldn't build a nuke without first holding Seoul hostage with hundreds of thousands of artillery units within range of the South Korean capital. This allowed them to build their nukes without getting bombed like Iraq and Syria.

Iran was 100% going to build nukes but they needed to first stockpile enough missiles and drones to hold the Middle East hostage. This was literally the last opportunity to destroy their program before the costs of stopping them would be too high.

BusterAg said:

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Haleyscomet50 said:

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If I support you with money, guns, ammo and military equipment you can bet I'm going to tell you what to do. Not being able to stop Israel is like my kids telling me what to do. Not going to fly.

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Pretty sure you are not going to let some crazy fanatic point a live gun at your kids head with no response, either.

Would you have allowed Iran to stockpile 100,000 ballistic missiles to overwhelm Iron Dome and smoke Israel?

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Sucks for them Israel is in a rough spot. But I'm American not Israeli we bend over backwards to fund everything about them and get nothing in return. We pay all these taxes for a reason to be the baddest on the block and I'm okay with that.Im not okay with paying all theses taxes taking care of another country that's worthless to us and not being able to control them.

Our partnership with them should be reworked Immediately. We'll it's more of a sponsorship. Better use of our tax dollars is funding countries that supply things we need like oil. Let's be allies with one of them and do what's best for the American taxpayers not some guys from Brooklyn.

Ag with kids said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the subtext of your question is that we had no choice, because israel was going to act and iran would retaliate against us.

setting aside for a moment that we now know trump had far more agency in israel's decision than rubio implied, this begs the question of why are we letting israel drag us around by our dicks in the first place?

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Well...

It's obviously because all the Republicans are controlled by the JOOS!

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Both sides are controlled and it's pretty admirable. Give both sides money and they will support you. Israel is a smart country that plays our system perfectly. They have a multi prong attack on the American government and people that make decisions. From your local pastor who took a trip to the holy land to our President they know exactly what they are doing.

Obama was a very bad democRAT. Very bad. He is a socialist and probably evil.

Obama got the JCPOA signed with Iran in 2015. P5 was happy with it, Iran was happy with it. Israel HATED Obama for it. Trump ripped it up in 2018.

What would I have done? Probably compelled Israel to stand down and re implemented it. The entire world was happy with it (except Israel)

The entire liberal and terrorist appeaser world was happy with it


That "deal" was horrible. Every conservative knew it at the time. Every honest person knows that now.

BMX Bandit said:

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The entire liberal and terrorist appeaser world was happy with it


That "deal" was horrible. Every conservative knew it at the time. Every honest person knows that now.

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Please quote what I said so I can see what you are responding to.

I'll do it for you this time- the P5 was good with it. That is the permanent members of the UN security council, if you were not sure.

No, sadly (and I know its really depressing to consider) under the democRAT Obama, we had a nuclear deal with Iran which the entire world was good with (except Israel)

BMX Bandit said:

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The entire liberal and terrorist appeaser world was happy with it


That "deal" was horrible. Every conservative knew it at the time. Every honest person knows that now.

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What specifically was bad?

if we had executed a plan to control SOH in tandem with everything else we did, they would have no semblance of leverage any more.

Allowed continued enrichment, evict they due to the 60% levels needed for one thing and one thing only.

Allowed Iran to delay any inspections.

Gave Iran over $1 billion of American money in addition to the $400 million that was not the property of that Iranian terrorist regime.


What was good about it? It gave Iran just about all they wanted.


Why do you think this was not a treaty?

sts7049 said:

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if we had executed a plan to control SOH in tandem with everything else we did, they would have no semblance of leverage any more.

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If we could have executed a plan to control the Strait, we would have done it by now

yeah, probably also true. I'm not sure we have enough of what we really need in the water to control it. maybe it would stretch us too thin elsewhere in the world.

BMX Bandit said:

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Allowed continued enrichment, evict they due to the 60% levels needed for one thing and one thing only.

Allowed Iran to delay any inspections.

Gave Iran over $1 billion of American money in addition to the $400 million that was not the property of that Iranian terrorist regime.


What was good about it? It gave Iran just about all they wanted.


Why do you think this was not a treaty?

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The JCPOA did not allow 60% enrichment. It capped Iran at 3.67% enrichment, capped the stockpile at 300 kg for 15 years, barred uranium enrichment at Fordow for 15 years, and gave the IAEA daily access to Natanz plus continuous monitoring in key parts of the program.

The $400 million was Iranian money from a pre-1979 trust fund, and the additional roughly $1.3 billion was negotiated interest in a Hague claims settlement. You can criticize the payment and the timing, but calling it a straight giveaway of American money is not accurate.

To be more precise IIRC
The money was an advanced payment for Weapons Systems the Shah's regime bought but were not delivered

sts7049 said:

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yeah, probably also true. I'm not sure we have enough of what we really need in the water to control it. maybe it would stretch us too thin elsewhere in the world.

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Good point. The topic of the thread is "What would you have done differently on the eve of Israel attacking Iran"?

I am an American who puts America First, so I would have compelled Israel to stand down. The Strait of Hormuz was WIDE open before Israel dragged us into another Middle East Forever War (conveniently against another one of their regional enemies)

I described the money giveaway exactly for what it is.
And it is was "negotiated" by a Muslm friendly president. It was terrible. Anyone with any sense knows that

Your beliefs about the inspections do not lineup with the historical reality.

sts7049 said:

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yeah, probably also true. I'm not sure we have enough of what we really need in the water to control it. maybe it would stretch us too thin elsewhere in the world.

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Even if we could control the SoH We can't adequately defend every soft target in the region

eater of the list said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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Allowed continued enrichment, evict they due to the 60% levels needed for one thing and one thing only.

Allowed Iran to delay any inspections.

Gave Iran over $1 billion of American money in addition to the $400 million that was not the property of that Iranian terrorist regime.


What was good about it? It gave Iran just about all they wanted.


Why do you think this was not a treaty?

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The JCPOA did not allow 60% enrichment. It capped Iran at 3.67% enrichment, capped the stockpile at 300 kg for 15 years, barred uranium enrichment at Fordow for 15 years, and gave the IAEA daily access to Natanz plus continuous monitoring in key parts of the program.

The $400 million was Iranian money from a pre-1979 trust fund, and the additional roughly $1.3 billion was negotiated interest in a Hague claims settlement. You can criticize the payment and the timing, but calling it a straight giveaway of American money is not accurate.

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What? The problem with the "treaty" from the start was that it wasn't binding. It was never ratified.

Then after 2018 Iran grew more and more bold. Restricting IAEA access considerably. And this is after a crap rollout. From the start JCPOA was flawed. The JCPOA did not allow "anytime, anywhere" inspections. IAEA inspectors were not permitted to visit undeclared facilities without permission or credible evidence of concern, and Iran basically made military bases off-limits. Those seem important….

Iran could challenge ANY accusation, drawing out each instance for up to 24 days each. Giving them plenty of time to scurry off into the cracks with each case.

Then you had the IAEA repeatedly raising concerns about enriched uranium particles found at undeclared sites, Iran's refusal to explain the origin of nuclear material traces, and its denial of surveillance camera installations in sensitive facilities

It was a massive, giant sham and we all knew it. Then you had loopholes. Iran claimed that a December 2015 IAEA Board of Governors resolution which closed the agenda item on possible military dimensions (PMDs) of Iran's nuclear program exempted its pre-JCPOA conduct from further scrutiny. Iran told the IAEA it "will not recognize any allegation on past activities."

It was garbage. All of it. A scam. Both sides knew it. It calmed down constituents in the US, gave talking points, and gave Iran the time it needed.

eater of the list said:

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BMX Bandit said:

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Allowed continued enrichment, evict they due to the 60% levels needed for one thing and one thing only.

Allowed Iran to delay any inspections.

Gave Iran over $1 billion of American money in addition to the $400 million that was not the property of that Iranian terrorist regime.


What was good about it? It gave Iran just about all they wanted.


Why do you think this was not a treaty?

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The JCPOA did not allow 60% enrichment. It capped Iran at 3.67% enrichment, capped the stockpile at 300 kg for 15 years, barred uranium enrichment at Fordow for 15 years, and gave the IAEA daily access to Natanz plus continuous monitoring in key parts of the program.

The $400 million was Iranian money from a pre-1979 trust fund, and the additional roughly $1.3 billion was negotiated interest in a Hague claims settlement. You can criticize the payment and the timing, but calling it a straight giveaway of American money is not accurate.

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That $400 million, therefore, was never the property of the Islamic Republic of Iran...

OP - had not seen the quotes from Rubio before-we really were drug into this.

As the cat is out of the bag now, I think the Israelis should co-fund the golden dome systems by providing us the licenses and technology to build their anti missile & drone systems.

They've used our aircraft and munitions since 1948 - about time we get something equivalent in return.

BusterAg said:

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Lot's of spear throwing on here about gas prices, but what would you have done differently.

Doing nothing was not an option. Rubio articulated that clearly: https://abcnews.com/Politics/rubio-us-struck-iran-fearing-retaliate-israeli-attack/story?id=130694505

Iran had given front-line commanders to attack US assets for Israel attacked. Israel was going to attack to keep Iran from overwhelming Iron Dome. That is just something that could not be avoided.

What would you have done differently?

There are plenty of threads on here about how this is a mess. Those don't need to be reiterated. I'm interested in what a better path forward would have been.

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Give Israel every bit of aid to defend itself (missile defense, etc.) and cut every bit of aid allowing it to attack sovereign nations against US interest / US permission.

Israel wouldn't have its current lifestyle of free healthcare + endless military engagements without $Billions of US Aid, and we don't yank their dog chain near enough.

BlackGold said:

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BusterAg said:

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Haleyscomet50 said:

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If I support you with money, guns, ammo and military equipment you can bet I'm going to tell you what to do. Not being able to stop Israel is like my kids telling me what to do. Not going to fly.

---

Pretty sure you are not going to let some crazy fanatic point a live gun at your kids head with no response, either.

Would you have allowed Iran to stockpile 100,000 ballistic missiles to overwhelm Iron Dome and smoke Israel?

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Yes I would have let the government of Israel fight their own fight, convince their own population that warring with Iran was in their interest and to work out a deal with Iran on their own. They are not America and do not represent me or any of my values. Neither does Iran for that matter so I really don't care what happens to either of them. They're halfway around the world and we have our own problems at home we should be focusing on.

The Iranian government hates the US because we let Israel murder their way through ME. If we put the reigns on Israel and treat them like any other ally, we wouldn't be in this mess.

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So,

What to do when Israel attacks Iran, and Iran retaliates by launching missiles indiscriminately (which they did) and a good chunk of them hit our Al Udeid base in Qatar, and about 3,000 American military members die, and you have Marco Rubio in your ear telling you that is exactly what was going to happen, and we all knew it, but you just decided to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore that.

What do you do then?

BlackGold said:

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BusterAg said:

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BlackGold said:

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I would have told Bibi and Israel to suck bricks and to go it on their own, then try to cut all their funding we dole out to them, kick all of their assets out of our intelligence groups, followed by signing an executive order that said our MIC could no longer sell arms to them and finally made them sign the NPT and WMD Treaties that everyone else on planet earth has. Essentially treat them like all of our other allies.

---

And when Iran invades Israel? You cool with the Jews being removed from the desert to the sea? Or, maybe, after Iran has nukes, then we get involved?

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I'm almost at the point where I think every country should have nukes as the ultimate deterrent. It prevents uppity nation-state leaders, like Bibi, from invading sovereign nations at their leisure. No one would use them since the repercussions would be getting nuked back.

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If Iran had a nuke, they would use it, because they are irrational religious fanatics that want to bring about their own world dominance after the Armageddon.

Hard pass.

Old McDonald said:

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the subtext of your question is that we had no choice, because israel was going to act and iran would retaliate against us.

setting aside for a moment that we now know trump had far more agency in israel's decision than rubio implied, this begs the question of why are we letting israel drag us around by our dicks in the first place?

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citation?

Which of these facts do you dispute?

1) Iran was stockpiling ballistic missiles to launch at Israel and the rest of the ME if they were attacked.
2) Israel had intelligence that the front-line commanders of the Iranian military had instructions to launch whatever missiles they had if Iran was attacked. At US as targets if they could, but generally just make sure that they launched if Iran was attacked.
3) Israel was not going to allow Iran to stockpile enough missiles to overwhelm Iron Dome, so they decided to attack.
4) We decided that if Israel was going to attack, we were going to eliminate as many of those missiles as we could to reduce damage to US assets in the ME
5) After the Israel / US joint strike started, Iran front-line military really did launch a bunch of missiles, pretty indiscriminately, in retaliation, just like the Israel intelligence told us they would.

Which if these is incorrect?

This is a very good analogy.

But gas prices are now $4 a gallon, so orange man bad, right?

The weirdest thing about the left is that they just purposefully refuse to use any amount of deductive reasoning and play like they have the intelligence of a toddler if that suits their momentary argument.

Haleyscomet50 said:

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BusterAg said:

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Haleyscomet50 said:

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If I support you with money, guns, ammo and military equipment you can bet I'm going to tell you what to do. Not being able to stop Israel is like my kids telling me what to do. Not going to fly.

---

Pretty sure you are not going to let some crazy fanatic point a live gun at your kids head with no response, either.

Would you have allowed Iran to stockpile 100,000 ballistic missiles to overwhelm Iron Dome and smoke Israel?

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Sucks for them Israel is in a rough spot. But I'm American not Israeli we bend over backwards to fund everything about them and get nothing in return. We pay all these taxes for a reason to be the baddest on the block and I'm okay with that.Im not okay with paying all theses taxes taking care of another country that's worthless to us and not being able to control them.

Our partnership with them should be reworked Immediately. We'll it's more of a sponsorship. Better use of our tax dollars is funding countries that supply things we need like oil. Let's be allies with one of them and do what's best for the American taxpayers not some guys from Brooklyn.

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Israel is kindof a vassal state of the US in the ME.

Some argue that this is good for the US, because there is a lot of oil in the ME, and cheaper oil is good for US citizens.

The one thing that we ask from Israel is that they provide us intelligence of what the governments in the ME are doing.

They are really, really good at that. Likely even better than we are.

It sounds like you are saying we should be allies with, I dunno, Iran? Because they are the ones with oil?

Keyno said:

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Obama was a very bad democRAT. Very bad. He is a socialist and probably evil.

Obama got the JCPOA signed with Iran in 2015. P5 was happy with it, Iran was happy with it. Israel HATED Obama for it. Trump ripped it up in 2018.

What would I have done? Probably compelled Israel to stand down and re implemented it. The entire world was happy with it (except Israel)

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Except during that time Iran enriched enough uranium to make 11 nukes, right?

Are you super cool with that?