YouBet said:

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UTExan said:

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Here's what bothers me: we sold our Salt Lake home (big market demand-got offers above asking price the day it hit the market), then with all the renovation we put into it we did very well. Then moved to Georgia. Federal tax filing will result in a $2,100+ refund of taxes paid through deductions from pensions/investment payments. So far so good.

The states of Utah and Georgia, however, took a combined $2,500 in income taxes owed after all the above. (We have a very experienced CPA do our taxes).

Never, ever allow Texas to enact an income tax!

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Get the sentiment because if Texas did this you are likely going to get stuck with the same high property taxes but now with an income tax.

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We have land in Gillespie County. Fredericksburg. Value $200,000 +. They developer put Antelope on the fenced in community. My tax was less than $5. Get a farm or wildlife examination if possible.

Once Florida fills up are we going to get the New Yorker overflow?

DG-Ag said:

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Once Florida fills up are we going to get the New Yorker overflow?

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Well, we do have the Texas Stock Exchange and the NYSE branch both in Dallas. Dallas is #2 financial hub in US already so they would likely all go there.

There is no hope of this improving. Trump spends out of control like the rest of them as well.

LOYAL AG said:

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Dan Carlin said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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I just learned you're a troll. Seven people responded to your "Income inequality " post and you ignored all of them but you posted here taking a shot at someone lamenting their tax bill. If you're going to participate in political debate here that's great. I'm happy we have liberal minded individuals on this forum as it keeps it entertaining. But don't post then ignore the responses to your post. That's not debate, it's trolling.

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Not a troll. People here are acting in emotions and not statistics. Not sorry for them that they can't do math.

The point remains here. The person I replied to apparently is upset that they have to pay capital gains.

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I'll accept that you don't think you're trolling but I was one of those seven and there was nothing emotional about my post. Here it is to save you the search. Genuinely, the left needs to learn the following:

Quote:

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None of your problems are because someone else makes more money than you and envy is a serious character flaw. If you aren't happy with what you make solve that problem, don't wallow in misery and blame others for your failures.

We have the largest middle class by percentage in world history and live in one of the few places and times where hard work and talent can be combined to achieve whatever you want to achieve. Believing otherwise reveals a complete lack of understanding of that very back truth which requires a lack of understanding of history.

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The first point is a simple one. Elon Musk isn't causing any of your (in a generic sense) problems. I guarantee I can find at least one problem in your life caused by too much government, however. That's the real point. You can make a decision not to do business with rich people. Not sure who you're going to work for, but it's not hard to say, "I'm not buying a Tesla or Starlink" and not give Elon any money. Try that with a government that takes a meaningful amount of your money at gunpoint.

The second one is a simple statement of historical fact. There's never been a bigger, more robust middle class ever in human history. The rich aren't stealing your wealth, they'll selling you things you want and/or need for a fair price. Government, on the other hand, is stealing your wealth. First by taking a material amount of your money at gunpoint then by spending more money than they steal from all of us combined thereby creating inflation.

The simple truth is for most all of history there is no middle class. You've got the elite and the poor which means far more significant income inequality. Right here, right now is the exception to the rule and more government isn't going to make this better than it already is. Willingly giving money to a ruling class of politicians and bureaucrats is funding that ruling elite our Founders tried to prevent and too much government will destroy the wealth of the middle class. They're already doing it. Government is the problem. Always.

So there you go. Nothing emotional at all. Just simple truths and facts.

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You're wrong that the Elon Musks of the world are not causing harm. Extreme wealth concentrated in the hands of oligarchs leads to, well, an oligarchy. Then we are left to a political system frozen in protecting the interests of those above the rest of the population. We are living that system out currently.

You're also wrong about there never having been a more robust middle class in the history of the world. The American middle class of the later 20th century (ballpark it from 1960-1990) was more resilient than we have today. Those of us with great education and careers are wealthier than ever but a larger fraction have not been able to keep up over the past generation.

ibtcabal

Dan Carlin said:

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UTExan said:

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Here's what bothers me: we sold our Salt Lake home (big market demand-got offers above asking price the day it hit the market), then with all the renovation we put into it we did very well. Then moved to Georgia. Federal tax filing will result in a $2,100+ refund of taxes paid through deductions from pensions/investment payments. So far so good.

The states of Utah and Georgia, however, took a combined $2,500 in income taxes owed after all the above. (We have a very experienced CPA do our taxes).

Never, ever allow Texas to enact an income tax!

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So your point is that you're upset about having to pay taxes on capital gains?

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Not upset since I did pay federal capital gains taxes with the standard exemptions. I also declared the measly $500 on sales of personal items as well. And had 22% in federal deductions on pension, etc. That's why I ended up with a refund. What is irritating is the states coming in afterwards for their (excessive, IMHO) taxation. That's why I recommend to residents of Texas that they never, ever allow state income taxes to be implemented. HTH.

Dan Carlin said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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Dan Carlin said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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I just learned you're a troll. Seven people responded to your "Income inequality " post and you ignored all of them but you posted here taking a shot at someone lamenting their tax bill. If you're going to participate in political debate here that's great. I'm happy we have liberal minded individuals on this forum as it keeps it entertaining. But don't post then ignore the responses to your post. That's not debate, it's trolling.

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Not a troll. People here are acting in emotions and not statistics. Not sorry for them that they can't do math.

The point remains here. The person I replied to apparently is upset that they have to pay capital gains.

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I'll accept that you don't think you're trolling but I was one of those seven and there was nothing emotional about my post. Here it is to save you the search. Genuinely, the left needs to learn the following:

Quote:

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None of your problems are because someone else makes more money than you and envy is a serious character flaw. If you aren't happy with what you make solve that problem, don't wallow in misery and blame others for your failures.

We have the largest middle class by percentage in world history and live in one of the few places and times where hard work and talent can be combined to achieve whatever you want to achieve. Believing otherwise reveals a complete lack of understanding of that very back truth which requires a lack of understanding of history.

---

The first point is a simple one. Elon Musk isn't causing any of your (in a generic sense) problems. I guarantee I can find at least one problem in your life caused by too much government, however. That's the real point. You can make a decision not to do business with rich people. Not sure who you're going to work for, but it's not hard to say, "I'm not buying a Tesla or Starlink" and not give Elon any money. Try that with a government that takes a meaningful amount of your money at gunpoint.

The second one is a simple statement of historical fact. There's never been a bigger, more robust middle class ever in human history. The rich aren't stealing your wealth, they'll selling you things you want and/or need for a fair price. Government, on the other hand, is stealing your wealth. First by taking a material amount of your money at gunpoint then by spending more money than they steal from all of us combined thereby creating inflation.

The simple truth is for most all of history there is no middle class. You've got the elite and the poor which means far more significant income inequality. Right here, right now is the exception to the rule and more government isn't going to make this better than it already is. Willingly giving money to a ruling class of politicians and bureaucrats is funding that ruling elite our Founders tried to prevent and too much government will destroy the wealth of the middle class. They're already doing it. Government is the problem. Always.

So there you go. Nothing emotional at all. Just simple truths and facts.

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You're wrong that the Elon Musks of the world are not causing harm. Extreme wealth concentrated in the hands of oligarchs leads to, well, an oligarchy. Then we are left to a political system frozen in protecting the interests of those above the rest of the population. We are living that system out currently.

You're also wrong about there never having been a more robust middle class in the history of the world. The American middle class of the later 20th century (ballpark it from 1960-1990) was more resilient than we have today. Those of us with great education and careers are wealthier than ever but a larger fraction have not been able to keep up over the past generation.

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Except that you are wrong. You will need to prove this.

From recent study that I mentioned earlier and was posted on here a couple of days ago:

From WSJ:

Quote:

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We find that the 'core' middle class has shrunkbut so too has the share of Americans with income too low to reach the middle class," the authors conclude. "The shrinking core middle class is due to a booming upper-middle class. Only the relatively worse-off parts of the middle class have shrunkand by less than the upper-middle class has grown."

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Quote:

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In 1979 the upper middle class was 10% of all families. By 2024 it was 31%. Over the same period, the share of families with income below the core middle class declined from 54% to 35%. "Family incomes rose significantly across the entire income distribution, pushing more families into higher income categories," the study found. Other studies show similar patterns. Yes, the rich have gotten richer over the decades, but so have the nonrich. "Everybody is doing better," Richard Fry of the Pew Research Center told the Journal.

"For the first time in American history," Messrs. Rose and Winship write, "more families in 2024 were above the core middle class threshold (35 percent) than below it (34 percent)."

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Quote:

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Other research tracked individuals (instead of households) and found that upward economic mobility has been the norm as people gain experience and seniority. A University of Michigan study found that nearly 30% of people who were in the bottom quintile of earners in 1975 had risen to the top quintile by 1991, and only 5% of individuals initially in the bottom quintile had remained there. A U.S. Treasury Department analysis, "Income Mobility in the U.S. from 1996 to 2005," concluded: "More than 50 percent of taxpayers in the bottom quintile moved to a higher quintile within ten years."

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I've asked about this very thing on here for years. Everyone just assumes the shrinking of the middle class was because everyone is getting poorer with no one ever stopping to consider maybe most people were actually rising out of the middle class. Well, that's what happened in reality and we have the data to prove it.

So, you will need to stop parroting your comments about the middle class now that you know they are false. Yes?

I think Dan Carlin is mistaking lack of financial management education and the discipline to save and invest with lack of opportunity.
Americans simply lack the knowledge to save and invest as well as the discipline to do so today. And it is often local zoning laws, particularly in blue cities which prohibits building cheaper homes, and home ownership is the foundation for building transgenerational wealth. Just my .02 here.
I used to be one of those vocal critics of class inequality until I came under the tutelage of a financial advisor who really forced some consolidation of assets and encouraged discipline in our spending.

Dan Carlin said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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Dan Carlin said:

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LOYAL AG said:

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I just learned you're a troll. Seven people responded to your "Income inequality " post and you ignored all of them but you posted here taking a shot at someone lamenting their tax bill. If you're going to participate in political debate here that's great. I'm happy we have liberal minded individuals on this forum as it keeps it entertaining. But don't post then ignore the responses to your post. That's not debate, it's trolling.

---

Not a troll. People here are acting in emotions and not statistics. Not sorry for them that they can't do math.

The point remains here. The person I replied to apparently is upset that they have to pay capital gains.

---

I'll accept that you don't think you're trolling but I was one of those seven and there was nothing emotional about my post. Here it is to save you the search. Genuinely, the left needs to learn the following:

Quote:

---

None of your problems are because someone else makes more money than you and envy is a serious character flaw. If you aren't happy with what you make solve that problem, don't wallow in misery and blame others for your failures.

We have the largest middle class by percentage in world history and live in one of the few places and times where hard work and talent can be combined to achieve whatever you want to achieve. Believing otherwise reveals a complete lack of understanding of that very back truth which requires a lack of understanding of history.

---

The first point is a simple one. Elon Musk isn't causing any of your (in a generic sense) problems. I guarantee I can find at least one problem in your life caused by too much government, however. That's the real point. You can make a decision not to do business with rich people. Not sure who you're going to work for, but it's not hard to say, "I'm not buying a Tesla or Starlink" and not give Elon any money. Try that with a government that takes a meaningful amount of your money at gunpoint.

The second one is a simple statement of historical fact. There's never been a bigger, more robust middle class ever in human history. The rich aren't stealing your wealth, they'll selling you things you want and/or need for a fair price. Government, on the other hand, is stealing your wealth. First by taking a material amount of your money at gunpoint then by spending more money than they steal from all of us combined thereby creating inflation.

The simple truth is for most all of history there is no middle class. You've got the elite and the poor which means far more significant income inequality. Right here, right now is the exception to the rule and more government isn't going to make this better than it already is. Willingly giving money to a ruling class of politicians and bureaucrats is funding that ruling elite our Founders tried to prevent and too much government will destroy the wealth of the middle class. They're already doing it. Government is the problem. Always.

So there you go. Nothing emotional at all. Just simple truths and facts.

---

You're wrong that the Elon Musks of the world are not causing harm. Extreme wealth concentrated in the hands of oligarchs leads to, well, an oligarchy. Then we are left to a political system frozen in protecting the interests of those above the rest of the population. We are living that system out currently.

You're also wrong about there never having been a more robust middle class in the history of the world. The American middle class of the later 20th century (ballpark it from 1960-1990) was more resilient than we have today. Those of us with great education and careers are wealthier than ever but a larger fraction have not been able to keep up over the past generation.

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Well the question of the robust middle class has been addressed exceedingly well already so let's address the impact of the uber wealthy. Let's pretend they're doing the harm you allege. That political system is frozen because the government is way too powerful. Billionaires buy political favors because politicians and bureaucrats have favors to sell. Pre-1913 (meaning no income tax and no direct election of senators) it was much harder to buy a Senator because they basically didn't have campaigns to fund. Now we have senate races where more money comes from outside of the state than inside of it. Even in big, wealthy states like Texas this phenomenon is real. The senate was supposed to represent the states, now it represents the oligarchs you refer to. And what are those oligarchs buying from the Senate? Protection from us, the middle class that's trying to improve our lot in life. And what form does that protection come in? The income tax. So again, Elon isn't the problem. The problem is a government that exists to enrich politicians and bureaucrats by suppressing the middle class to protect the wealthy. It still ties back to a government that's way too powerful.

And what does that government do with the money it takes from the middle class at gunpoint? It uses it to buy votes from the poor which serves primarily to keep those same people poor. The welfare state creates a floor below which work is disincentivized. Then government funded schools create a segment of the population that's too poorly educated to secure and perform meaningful work so those people get locked into said welfare state where they're chai to vote for more and more and more of your money to be taken at gunpoint by the government.

Is this starting to make sense now?

UTExan said:

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I think Dan Carlin is mistaking lack of financial management education and the discipline to save and invest with lack of opportunity.
Americans simply lack the knowledge to save and invest as well as the discipline to do so today. And it is often local zoning laws, particularly in blue cities which prohibits building cheaper homes, and home ownership is the foundation for building transgenerational wealth. Just my .02 here.
I used to be one of those vocal critics of class inequality until I came under the tutelage of a financial advisor who really forced some consolidation of assets and encouraged discipline in our spending.

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Also correct and I had meant to add this. What he is seeing are people living beyond their means. He's making the revenue mistake that many make. People need to focus on profitability.

While it's true most of the middle class has actually done better and not worse, many have also increased their spending accordingly and thus offset any financial gains they made.

IOW, they are house poor and/or just spending everything they get. We personally know many people who do this as I'm sure you do as well.

Somehow a lack of resiliency is to blame? If so who is responsible? Resiliency can be increased over time. It's up to the individual to step up and take responsibility. If a person is able bodied the only reason they aren't middle class are poor choices.

Great post. Don't expect a response.

Indeed.

Wealth is not about earning a lot of money. It's about creating the biggest gap between what you earn and what you spend.

One can live fairly frugally by avoiding dumb things like an expensive new car every 2-3 years, eating out every meal, and getting divorced.

As for me - 10 year old car, meal prep every Sunday and married almost 40 years.

fc2112 said:

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Indeed.

Wealth is not about earning a lot of money. It's about creating the biggest gap between what you earn and what you spend.

One can live fairly frugally by avoiding dumb things like an expensive new car every 2-3 years, eating out every meal, and getting divorced.

As for me - 10 year old car, meal prep every Sunday and married almost 40 years.

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We see this with our kids and grandkids. Both parents work, but they fill up their spare time with youth soccer and band events both at school and in club programs, which necessitates a lot of travel, an SUV big enough to transport both kids and equipment throughout the local area and they eat on the run. They are dead tired at the end their usually long day and just rest on Sunday. This means a lot of money spent on fast food and restaurants. For Christmas we gifted them some down time at Universal in Orlando.
When we both assume room temperature we have it set up to liquidate our estate very slowly with adjustments for inflation. This avoids running through our hard-earned money. If they are smart they will let the investments grow.

Good man.

Room temperature - lol

As for me and my wife - not sure there will be all that much left for the four kids. I plan on enjoying retirement.

Dan Carlin said:

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You're wrong that the Elon Musks of the world are not causing harm. Extreme wealth concentrated in the hands of oligarchs leads to, well, an oligarchy.

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We have had the super wealthy forever. Haven't had an oligarchy yet. How much wealth should someone have? What is the limit you would set?

UTExan said:

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Here's what bothers me: we sold our Salt Lake home (big market demand-got offers above asking price the day it hit the market), then with all the renovation we put into it we did very well. Then moved to Georgia. Federal tax filing will result in a $2,100+ refund of taxes paid through deductions from pensions/investment payments. So far so good.

The states of Utah and Georgia, however, took a combined $2,500 in income taxes owed after all the above. (We have a very experienced CPA do our taxes).

Never, ever allow Texas to enact an income tax!

---

Much rather have an income tax than a property (wealth) tax, but I sure do not want both. If you owe income tax, you have income that caused it, thus funds to pay the tax with. With a property (wealth) tax, you owe it forever even though you have done nothing each and every year, no transaction, to create the tax.

Our CPA filed our tax return a week ago today. Yesterday, our Credit Union showed our refund will be deposited this coming Wednesday. I've never had a return completed this quickly.

So the top quartile also controls the 81% of all private wealth and earns about 70% of total income. So they're getting taxed just a little bit more than an equal proportional share, but not really that much.

It's called income tax and they make 70% of the income but pay 87.2%. Exactly how is that just a little bit more?

How about the bottom 50% that make about 14% and pay less than 3%. Many pay no income tax whatsoever.

backintexas2013 said:

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It's called income tax and they make 70% of the income but pay 87.2%. Exactly how is that just a little bit more?

How about the bottom 50% that make about 14% and pay less than 3%. Many pay no income tax whatsoever.

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"To whom much has been given, much is required."

solishu said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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It's called income tax and they make 70% of the income but pay 87.2%. Exactly how is that just a little bit more?

How about the bottom 50% that make about 14% and pay less than 3%. Many pay no income tax whatsoever.

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"To whom much has been given, much is required."

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If 10% is good enough for Jesus, it ought to be enough for the IRS

So all the welfare recipients and those loving off the government should step up since they are the ones being given stuff. When will they start pulling their weight.

Also terrible argument. Muh because reality is a feelings argument. You made a comment. I showed where it was flawed and then you argue feelings.

solishu said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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It's called income tax and they make 70% of the income but pay 87.2%. Exactly how is that just a little bit more?

How about the bottom 50% that make about 14% and pay less than 3%. Many pay no income tax whatsoever.

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"To whom much has been given, much is required."

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So, we should be good then on the top quartile floating even more of the country. We are all good here and already more than covering our fair share.

Premise 1: A society has an interest it its members being able to meet their basic needs

Premise 2: The $200,000 that a couple making half a million might pay in taxes has a much less significant impact on their ability to meet their basic needs than the $20,000 that a couple making $50,000 would.

Conclusion: It's OK for the couple making $500,000 to pay a greater share of their income in taxes than the couple making $50,000 to prevent taxation from inhibiting a society's members from meeting their basic needs.

solishu said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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It's called income tax and they make 70% of the income but pay 87.2%. Exactly how is that just a little bit more?

How about the bottom 50% that make about 14% and pay less than 3%. Many pay no income tax whatsoever.

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"To whom much has been given, much is required."

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Why do liberals, most of whom hate God, quote scripture and misapply it to how the government should operate?!

It also says " if a man will not work, he shall not eat".

Except the couple making $50k isn't paying $20k. Or even $2k. They are likely getting refundable tax credits and government assistance they throws it far better in their favor.

But then the bottom 50% has no skin in the income tax game and they continue to want to stick it to "the rich". They don't care because it has no impact on them. You wanting someone to pay more because they can is just jealousy and nothing but pointing fingers at others. Because someone can doesn't make it right. We should strive for a society where people all care and have skin in the game and they strive to not want to pay less just because others have worked hard and succeeded. That breeds more jealousy.

It's a counterfactual where the lowest quintile pays the same income tax as the upper quintile showing that that would not be desirable.

Inhibiting the ability of mass numbers of people from meeting their basic needs is the best way lead to a French Revolution-style political and social crisis.

solishu said:

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Inhibiting the ability of mass numbers of people from meeting their basic needs is the best way lead to a French Revolution-style political and social crisis.

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Basic needs are food water and shelter. Very very very few poor Americans are incapable of doing that, even on $50k a year and paying something like $1k in taxes.

solishu said:

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It's a counterfactual where the lowest quintile pays the same income tax as the upper quintile showing that that would not be desirable.

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What does this mean in English? We already know the lowest quintile doesn't pay the same income tax as the upper quintile. He was pointing out that the lowest quintile pays even less than you think they do.

Teslag said:

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solishu said:

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Inhibiting the ability of mass numbers of people from meeting their basic needs is the best way lead to a French Revolution-style political and social crisis.

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Basic needs are food water and shelter. Very very very few poor Americans are incapable of doing that, even on $50k a year and paying something like $1k in taxes.

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No, they need the latest iPhone, 75 inch TV, grills, pedicures, vacations on carnival cruise line, etc. That's the "basics" per the left.

Im Gipper said:

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BTW: The top 1% households make over $660k/yr

I bet most everyone here as a buddy in that tax bracket.

Top 10% if over about $275k/yr/household. You know, the "uber wealthy"

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There was a boat down the street a few weeks ago with 6 outboards on the back. I did the math in my head and thought who needs 900 hp when they go past the jetties. Then as I drove closer I realized those were 300s on the back. Apparently our neighborhood A/C service company has a boat that can outrun predator drones.