Old Sarge said:

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Moving from a 97 F150 Lariat (not including a burner Fusion in that time frame) to a 2020 TRD Tacoma Off Road (which is a "perfect" truck for my needs), only to have Toyota go completely off-Reservation with all their trucks to either a turbo or turbo/hybrid makes me want to puke.

The naturally aspirated V-8 /V-6 motor are the longest life motors (later gens, sans alternating pistons) ever known. Hybrid still has a battery component that makes the vehicle WAAAY more expensive than one needs to have it be.

WTF are we doing here? The move from naturally aspirated motors in vehicles, forced by leftist motivated CAFE standards are imposing an increased purchaser/ownership tax via increased costs of purchase and increased cost of ownership over the life of a vehicle. And it is not necessary.

We are putting our own heads in the headgates imposed upon us by our government, to comply with standards forced upon an industry by said government.

All this, brought to us by a farce called Man Made Climate Change. A G-damn FARCE.

We are paying WAAYY more than we should have to for vehicles. Period.

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Ford 300-6
Cummins 5.9 12 valve
7.3 PSD

All laugh their cams off at that reliability claim RE: V6, V8 NA

Old Sarge said:

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Moving from a 97 F150 Lariat (not including a burner Fusion in that time frame) to a 2020 TRD Tacoma Off Road (which is a "perfect" truck for my needs), only to have Toyota go completely off-Reservation with all their trucks to either a turbo or turbo/hybrid makes me want to puke.

The naturally aspirated V-8 /V-6 motor are the longest life motors (later gens, sans alternating pistons) ever known. Hybrid still has a battery component that makes the vehicle WAAAY more expensive than one needs to have it be.

WTF are we doing here? The move from naturally aspirated motors in vehicles, forced by leftist motivated CAFE standards are imposing an increased purchaser/ownership tax via increased costs of purchase and increased cost of ownership over the life of a vehicle. And it is not necessary.

We are putting our own heads in the headgates imposed upon us by our government, to comply with standards forced upon an industry by said government.

All this, brought to us by a farce called Man Made Climate Change. A G-damn FARCE.

We are paying WAAYY more than we should have to for vehicles. Period.

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I'll take a diesel toyota hilux diesel, if we bring diesel prices back to normal.

Our govt and the unions have really taken away some of the best options out there.

Non DEF diesel, and enough of them to bring diesel prices down to below 87octane gas. Popular worldwide,

Quote:

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Ford 300-6
Cummins 5.9 12 valve
7.3 PSD

All laugh their cams off at that reliability claim RE: V6, V8 NA

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Fair point, but none of the engines you listed is a V6.

Exactly. Not v6 or NA v8

Quote:

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To build these new EVs, the company must use fewer people

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UAW is never going to let that happen at an American automaker.

hph6203 said:

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When is the grid most likely to experience a shortfall of production?

When do EVs typically charge?

Are those timeframes overlapping or not?

When do AI data centers primarily consume energy? Do they have flat, predictable consumption patterns or are they unpredictable and spiked?


Blackouts are caused by demand in excess of production. EVs don't contribute to that, because they are overwhelmingly off peak consumers of electricity from the grid and operate off battery during peak grid consumption.

AI data centers are a consistent load on the grid and a permitted based upon actual capacity. Most will be built with battery storage to limit spikes demand from the grid, preventing demand shocks/grid instability, meaning if needed their demand can be reduced from the grid to limit blackouts.

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AI usage is distributed across time because of training which happens during off peak (inference is mostly during peak), which can ramp up significantly. Modern AI clusters can draw enormous amounts of power. That happens to coincide with EV charging. Thus, EVs will contribute to shortages.

EVs also aren't purely "off peak." A lot of charging happens overnight, which helps, but fast charging and evening charging can still increase peak demand depending on local usage patterns.

Battery storage can help smooth short-term fluctuations and provide backup power, but batteries don't eliminate the need for huge amounts of generation capacity and grid upgrades. You can't store it if you cant generate it and transmit it.

The overall growth rate of AI power demand is happening much faster than grid infrastructure expansion in many regions. The real issue is that both AI and electrification are increasing electricity demand at a pace utilities weren't originally built for. Nothing you've posted addresses that issue. We simply can't build fast enough to handle the two.

Training compute is not off peak consumption. They start a training run and it runs at capacity for days. Meaning it has to fit into both peak and off peak consumption, maintaining the same off peak shortfall of consumption relative to capacity.

What batteries do is allow for energy shifts from peak production to peak shortfall risk, in the evening, when TVs, ovens and A/C's get turned on, but solar and wind have fallen off. They mitigate overload potential.

One large data center is the equivalent of ~2.5 million vehicles of energy consumption. If the EV market increases by 25% annually from now until 2030 that's a 9 million incremental add of vehicles, or 3.5 large data centers worth with 150 GW of incrementally planned data centers over that period, with 100% of that being incremental add to peak demand and a fraction of the 3.5 GW from EVs being incremental peak demand, a large chunk of the incremental consumption will fall into overnight existing excess capacity. If it were 50% growth, roughly double it. That is low single digit percentage incremental increase in demand, at worst, compared to AI build out.

Just a non-sense argument.

AgGrad99 said:

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Fwiw- I saw one of these BYD PHEV in Austin the other day. It had Mexican plates. They aren't sold here, but they are in Mexico, so we might start seeing them around the State a bit more.

Not gonna lie...it looked pretty cool in person.

I think there were rumors a few years ago they'd be $15k, but from what I can tell, they're about $45k.

Quote:

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Instead, it brings a plug-in hybrid powertrain that allows for roughly 60 miles of electric-only driving and an estimated 522 miles of total range when combining the battery and gas tank.
The Shark uses its 1.5-liter turbocharged gasoline engine purely as a generator, powering a 29.6kWh battery that feeds two electric motors to produce a combined 430 hp and 480 lb-ft of torque. Those are stout numbers for a midsize pickup, and BYD claims a 062-mph sprint of 5.7 seconds.

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I understand why FORD feels the need to advance their line up.

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When the average price of all vehicles is about $50k, $45k for EV is a pretty good deal.

Good on them for giving the gays another truck option outside of their Rivians or Cyber Trucks.

Old Sarge said:

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Moving from a 97 F150 Lariat (not including a burner Fusion in that time frame) to a 2020 TRD Tacoma Off Road (which is a "perfect" truck for my needs), only to have Toyota go completely off-Reservation with all their trucks to either a turbo or turbo/hybrid makes me want to puke.

The naturally aspirated V-8 /V-6 motor are the longest life motors (later gens, sans alternating pistons) ever known. Hybrid still has a battery component that makes the vehicle WAAAY more expensive than one needs to have it be.

WTF are we doing here? The move from naturally aspirated motors in vehicles, forced by leftist motivated CAFE standards are imposing an increased purchaser/ownership tax via increased costs of purchase and increased cost of ownership over the life of a vehicle. And it is not necessary.

We are putting our own heads in the headgates imposed upon us by our government, to comply with standards forced upon an industry by said government.

All this, brought to us by a farce called Man Made Climate Change. A G-damn FARCE.

We are paying WAAYY more than we should have to for vehicles. Period.

---

This is so true. I wonder what a 2005 LS V8 Chevy would cost today. No LED lights, No LED panels, pushrod V8 with no AFM. No 10 speed automatic. That was probably "peak" truck for Chevy truck reliability and cheapness to fix. Toyota hung on longer. Ford exited with the 3 valve V8, although i had an 06 Expedition what went 200K no problems.

TexasAGGIEinAR said:

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Good on them for giving the gays another truck option outside of their Rivians or Cyber Trucks.

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Note to self: If you drive a Ford (I never have because I have taste), you support a company who caters to the gays.

Now someone go tell the F-1,000,000 driving 'Mercans to see what they switch to.

That truck with the largest engine (6.0 liter V8) put out 345 horsepower and 380lb of torque.

By comparison a 2026 Silverado with the 2.7 4 cylinder turbo puts out 310 horsepower and 430lb of torque while getting up to 24mpg in real world use. It's also extremely reliable.

Trucks are more capable and powerful than they've ever been. And far more reliable than their 70's, 80's and 90's malaise era counterparts. I think we just didn't mind the quality issues when they weren't $75k .

IIIHorn said:

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So anyway …

If a Dodge and a Ram enter an intersection at the same time, what happens?

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Fire.

If we take your claim as true about training, that doesn't help your argument: inference during peak and training all the time.

Batteries actually add to the issue. They shift energy in time, that's all. Batteries still have to be charged by generation somewhere else on the grid.

If AI training runs continuously - as you claim - through both peak and off-peak periods, the grid still needs enough generation capacity to:

- power the AI load itself,
- charge the batteries,
- serve current and future normal residential/commercial demand
- EVs


Your argument is bunk. We have a capacity issue right now - I guess you haven't noticed the mean cost per kwh of electricity rising substantially. EVs will make it even worse. Your EV dream is going to die because of it. Heck, the AI dream might die also, or at least take much, much longer than desired.

There has to be battery density, storage breakthroughs to make an EV competitive these days. Toyota Hybrids kick butt for efficiency and reliability because they took an American concept to market and it is mature technology now. Until an EV can get 500 miles or so between charges plus have guaranteed charging availability on interstates, secondary and tertiary routes, it is not a real competitive option.
I would love to get to EVs, but the infrastructure will not be there for them or data centers barring a rapid buildout of generation capacity and transmission.

Not trying to convert this to yet another troll thread, but I don't understand this line if thinking. I have a Tesla model 3 and it's rated to ~350 miles. You're not supposed to run it under 20% regularly, and the mileage rating is a little suspect anyway, so call it a carefree 260. This means that with a built-in lunch break, I can drive 260, break for lunch + charge for 45 minutes at a fast charger, and then get close to another 260.

That's 500 miles and some change, or 8-9 hours of heavy driving, with no inconvenience. If you build in a couple of 10-15 minute bathroom breaks (reasonable expectation on a long ace trip), you can push it to 700+.

Who regularly needs more range than that? The average Joe does a lot of commuting, drives from Kerrville to Rockport for the 3-day Memorial Day weekend, and then hops on an airplane to go to visit relatives at Christmas. All of this is easily handled by EV range, so I just don't understand the "the tech isn't ready" claim. (And by the way, solid state batteries, which will push cars close to that 500, are entering production in the next year or so.)

Teslag said:

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That truck with the largest engine (6.0 liter V8) put out 345 horsepower and 380lb of torque.

By comparison a 2026 Silverado with the 2.7 4 cylinder turbo puts out 310 horsepower and 430lb of torque while getting up to 24mpg in real world use. It's also extremely reliable.

Trucks are more capable and powerful than they've ever been. And far more reliable than their 70's, 80's and 90's malaise era counterparts. I think we just didn't mind the quality issues when they weren't $75k .

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Perhaps you're TexAgs rich and just buy new vehicles every couple of years, but some of us like to buy a truck, maintain it, and keep it. There are thousands of LS powered Silverados from the early to mid 2000s with hundreds of thousands of miles on them on the road every day. I doubt that will be the case with your 2.7 4 cyl turbo. It has a LOT of expensive to replace parts that will send it to the junkyard because it's "too expensive to fix" relative to its value when its older.

The reality is vehicles in general have become less reliable across all brands due to government fuel economy mandates. Engines are no longer fixed but now are completely replaced or the vehicle is junked. Transmissions that used to cost $2K to rebuild 10-15 years ago now cost $5-8K to rebuild. Taillights now cost hundreds to low 4 figures to replace. Instrument clusters and HVAC controls are LED displays that cost up to 4 figures. It's convenient to compare to the 70s-80s which did suck but i wasn't referring to the malaise years. However, I'd say most trucks in the 90s and many in the early to mid 2000s were pretty comfortable and reliable.

boulderaggie said:

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F Ford.

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F China

If you think its a hassle dealing with Ford recalls, wait until you own one of these Chinese pieces of ***** Nothing but bad reports coming out of China about BYD vehicles bricking a year or two. No replacement parts, no warranty repairs, just a low quality paperweight with a massive battery that with be environmentally hazardous for a long time. At least Ford actually fixes their deficiencies (most of the time).

A persistent load needs persistently available power. They are not building AI data centers to operate off of batteries for large stretches of the day during normal operation. They're building them to available capacity. Meaning it is a capacity that exists at 6pm when demand peaks relative to supply.

Due to the nature of humans that demand falls into 11pm and stays low overnight. The norm period that an EV gets charged occurs during that overnight low consumption with excess capacity. That a load from a data center is persistent doesn't impact that low, because the energy production has to exist at 6pm (when energy is scarce) at the same level it does at 3AM when energy production relative to consumption is abundant.

AI data center batteries are not carrying the load of a data center for long periods of time. What they do is buffer energy from the grid. Energy draw is high when measured over an hour, but inconsistent when measured over milliseconds. Large fluctuations in demand at that rate causes grid instability, so they need a battery that can supply enough power to flatten the grids perception of demand. That battery also allows the data center to demand shift around periods in the year where demand is at its highest relative to production. That is an acceptable design if it occurs for days out of the year, but not if it's required every day of the year. Meaning in August when those days are most frequent they can charge the batteries noon to 3 when peak production occurs (and a secondary mismatch expansion between supply and demand occurs) and expend the batteries 6 to 9 when demand and supply narrows.



The concern for EV adoption is not at the generation level. There is enough capacity to absorb EV power consumption. It is at the distribution level. It's that a singular house was designed to have a peak consumption that could absorb EV charging, but the residential grid was not designed for the collective of houses to all have EVs charging and A/C's running at the same time. So if you do an absurd scenario and say "if all cars were EVs the current grid would fail, because the distribution doesn't exist to absorb that demand" you'd be right, but 100% of cars are not going to be EV over night. Currently <1% of cars shift to EVs in a year. Even at a 50% growth rate from here it will take decades to transition all auto consumption to electric. It is an entirely resolvable problem.

500 miles of range is an excess you would eventually regret paying for with where EVs are headed. The future is 300 miles of range, abundant charging infrastructure and rapid charging. Not massive battery packs that kill efficiency. There's a reason why the focus in that Ford video is minimizing battery size, rather than just putting a bigger battery in the truck. It's a comparatively expensive solution for the producer and consumer than abundant communal charging and fast charging.

<10 minutes for a charge and 300 miles of range and the norm/ no tow, driver is going to be ecstatic about not dealing with a gas car. The technology is there from a battery perspective. It's not yet there from a charging infrastructure perspective.

Between 2020 and 2025 China added 3000 TWh of energy generation to their grid. More than the expected U.S. demand for EVs and data centers. For the "The U.S. can't build that much energy production" why do you think China can and we can't?

hph6203 said:

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Between 2020 and 2025 China added 3000 TWh of energy generation to their grid. More than the expected U.S. demand for EVs and data centers. For the "The U.S. can't build that much energy production" why do you think China can and we can't?

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I think most of that Chicom power plant build out is coal. That's still a no-go over here.

No Spin Ag said:

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TexasAGGIEinAR said:

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Good on them for giving the gays another truck option outside of their Rivians or Cyber Trucks.

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Note to self: If you drive a Ford (I never have because I have taste), you support a company who caters to the gays.

Now someone go tell the F-1,000,000 driving 'Mercans to see what they switch to.

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'Mercans ain't driving electric trucks. The gays are.

techno-ag said:

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https://www.tovima.com/wsj/the-secret-team-blowing-up-fords-assembly-line-to-make-a-30000-electric-truck/

Quote:

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The crew was there to test a section of a new pickup that few at the company knew even existed. Ford's secret project had an ambitious goal: to figure out how to make electric vehicles in the U.S. that could compete with the Chinese models clobbering competitors globally.

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Those pesky Chi-coms with their cheap EVs!

The question is, can Ford produce a domestic EV of any quality that cheap? Detroit is not really known for that.

Quote:

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To build these new EVs, the company must use fewer people and simpler parts, and dismantle decades of engineering inertia. Chief Executive Jim Farley is calling it Ford's new "Model T moment." Rival automakers say overcoming China on EVs can't be done, given their advantages: extensive government backing, low-cost labor and a massive head start.

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Don't forget our safety standards that have to be met.

But if they're going to make a cheap new vehicle, going electric is probably smart. Just don't expect it to be wildly profitable.

Quote:

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Ford's past electric models have racked up billions of dollars in losses. Farley, the CEO, has bemoaned them as having many more parts and costs than are necessary. Last year the company said it would kill its much-hyped electric F-150 pickup, which cost between $50,000 and about $77,000.

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Hopefully they learned from that boondoggle. Oh, and make it more attractive than the Cybertruck.

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Can Ford do it without govt subsidies that come out of my pocket?!! If not, then F 'em. ICE vehicles work just fine.

hsjnlssmith89 said:

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techno-ag said:

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https://www.tovima.com/wsj/the-secret-team-blowing-up-fords-assembly-line-to-make-a-30000-electric-truck/

Quote:

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The crew was there to test a section of a new pickup that few at the company knew even existed. Ford's secret project had an ambitious goal: to figure out how to make electric vehicles in the U.S. that could compete with the Chinese models clobbering competitors globally.

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Those pesky Chi-coms with their cheap EVs!

The question is, can Ford produce a domestic EV of any quality that cheap? Detroit is not really known for that.

Quote:

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To build these new EVs, the company must use fewer people and simpler parts, and dismantle decades of engineering inertia. Chief Executive Jim Farley is calling it Ford's new "Model T moment." Rival automakers say overcoming China on EVs can't be done, given their advantages: extensive government backing, low-cost labor and a massive head start.

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Don't forget our safety standards that have to be met.

But if they're going to make a cheap new vehicle, going electric is probably smart. Just don't expect it to be wildly profitable.

Quote:

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Ford's past electric models have racked up billions of dollars in losses. Farley, the CEO, has bemoaned them as having many more parts and costs than are necessary. Last year the company said it would kill its much-hyped electric F-150 pickup, which cost between $50,000 and about $77,000.

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Hopefully they learned from that boondoggle. Oh, and make it more attractive than the Cybertruck.

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Can Ford do it without govt subsidies that come out of my pocket?!! If not, then F 'em. ICE vehicles work just fine.

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They're called NICE now.

Deputy Travis Junior said:

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Not trying to convert this to yet another troll thread, but I don't understand this line if thinking. I have a Tesla model 3 and it's rated to ~350 miles. You're not supposed to run it under 20% regularly, and the mileage rating is a little suspect anyway, so call it a carefree 260. This means that with a built-in lunch break, I can drive 260, break for lunch + charge for 45 minutes at a fast charger, and then get close to another 260.

That's 500 miles and some change, or 8-9 hours of heavy driving, with no inconvenience. If you build in a couple of 10-15 minute bathroom breaks (reasonable expectation on a long ace trip), you can push it to 700+.

Who regularly needs more range than that? The average Joe does a lot of commuting, drives from Kerrville to Rockport for the 3-day Memorial Day weekend, and then hops on an airplane to go to visit relatives at Christmas. All of this is easily handled by EV range, so I just don't understand the "the tech isn't ready" claim. (And by the way, solid state batteries, which will push cars close to that 500, are entering production in the next year or so.)

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Fair question. Cold weather really degrades the performance of EVs right now. Plus, if you are making a run requiring 2 charging stops and they tend to be in bad areas where you really DON'T want to stop, then you have to game the charging to avoid those areas. My experience is on long drives through Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado, west Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. Also TBF, my neighbor drives his Tesla on the much smaller east coast from Atlanta to Staten Island with few issues.

UTExan said:

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Deputy Travis Junior said:

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Not trying to convert this to yet another troll thread, but I don't understand this line if thinking. I have a Tesla model 3 and it's rated to ~350 miles. You're not supposed to run it under 20% regularly, and the mileage rating is a little suspect anyway, so call it a carefree 260. This means that with a built-in lunch break, I can drive 260, break for lunch + charge for 45 minutes at a fast charger, and then get close to another 260.

That's 500 miles and some change, or 8-9 hours of heavy driving, with no inconvenience. If you build in a couple of 10-15 minute bathroom breaks (reasonable expectation on a long ace trip), you can push it to 700+.

Who regularly needs more range than that? The average Joe does a lot of commuting, drives from Kerrville to Rockport for the 3-day Memorial Day weekend, and then hops on an airplane to go to visit relatives at Christmas. All of this is easily handled by EV range, so I just don't understand the "the tech isn't ready" claim. (And by the way, solid state batteries, which will push cars close to that 500, are entering production in the next year or so.)

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Fair question. Cold weather really degrades the performance of EVs right now. Plus, if you are making a run requiring 2 charging stops and they tend to be in bad areas where you really DON'T want to stop, then you have to game the charging to avoid those areas. My experience is on long drives through Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado, west Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. Also TBF, my neighbor drives his Tesla on the much smaller east coast from Atlanta to Staten Island with few issues.

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To me, that difference between 300 mile range and 500 mile range would be a deal killer. If you are using a truck as a truck to do truck things (hauling gear, towing, etc.), that 300 mile range is going to be half of that really fast. Hybrids just make way more sense for that use case.

TexasAGGIEinAR said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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TexasAGGIEinAR said:

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Good on them for giving the gays another truck option outside of their Rivians or Cyber Trucks.

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Note to self: If you drive a Ford (I never have because I have taste), you support a company who caters to the gays.

Now someone go tell the F-1,000,000 driving 'Mercans to see what they switch to.

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'Mercans ain't driving electric trucks. The gays are.

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Yes, but 'Mercans are still buying their F-100,000s. And guess where Ford is getting their money to go EV?

Hint: It's not from the gays.

The ones buying the EV's are the gays. I don't care how it's being funded. The rest is a strawman.

AgGrad99 said:

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Fwiw- I saw one of these BYD PHEV in Austin the other day. It had Mexican plates. They aren't sold here, but they are in Mexico, so we might start seeing them around the State a bit more.

Not gonna lie...it looked pretty cool in person.

I think there were rumors a few years ago they'd be $15k, but from what I can tell, they're about $45k.

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Would it be possible to get a Mexican address and then purchase the above truck and register it in Mexico, and drive it in Texas? When I was at Ft Bliss I saw hundreds of Mexican plated vehicles driving around with no issues. Could this be a go-around for them not being able to be plated in the US?

hph6203 said:

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Between 2020 and 2025 China added 3000 TWh of energy generation to their grid. More than the expected U.S. demand for EVs and data centers. For the "The U.S. can't build that much energy production" why do you think China can and we can't?

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1. Labor with no rights
2. Cutting lots of corners on quality
3. Suffocating US Bureaucracy that is aimed at preventing anything constructive from happening in a reasonable time frame.

clarythedrill said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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Fwiw- I saw one of these BYD PHEV in Austin the other day. It had Mexican plates. They aren't sold here, but they are in Mexico, so we might start seeing them around the State a bit more.

Not gonna lie...it looked pretty cool in person.

I think there were rumors a few years ago they'd be $15k, but from what I can tell, they're about $45k.

---

Would it be possible to get a Mexican address and then purchase the above truck and register it in Mexico, and drive it in Texas? When I was at Ft Bliss I saw hundreds of Mexican plated vehicles driving around with no issues. Could this be a go-around for them not being able to be plated in the US?

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I have no idea.

The plates I saw in Austin were Chihuahua plates.

clarythedrill said:

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AgGrad99 said:

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Fwiw- I saw one of these BYD PHEV in Austin the other day. It had Mexican plates. They aren't sold here, but they are in Mexico, so we might start seeing them around the State a bit more.

Not gonna lie...it looked pretty cool in person.

I think there were rumors a few years ago they'd be $15k, but from what I can tell, they're about $45k.

---

Would it be possible to get a Mexican address and then purchase the above truck and register it in Mexico, and drive it in Texas? When I was at Ft Bliss I saw hundreds of Mexican plated vehicles driving around with no issues. Could this be a go-around for them not being able to be plated in the US?

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Seems like when it explodes in your garage, your insurance company might have some questions for you.

TexasAGGIEinAR said:

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The ones buying the EV's are the gays. I don't care how it's being funded. The rest is a strawman.

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Gays buy Subaru's. Get your tropes correct.