Chiefs and the refs

6,143 Views | 70 Replies | Last: 7 days ago by kyledr04
Kansas Kid
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BMX Bandit said:

how much money yall making knowing the outcomes ahead of time?

Well a number of posters know who will win the superbowl so I guess they are betting the farm on the Chiefs. No reason to bet any other way.
Southlake
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Nice to see Mahomes barreling his way into the end zone on their first TD. He ran hard in this game.
"Real skill comes without effort" - Mu Bai
nai06
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AG
A few stats to ponder:
Prior to last nights game

  • Clete Blakeman was the head official. Mahomes has his worst winning percentage with Blakeman has the head ref compared to any other head ref (6-5, now 7-5)
  • Josh Allen leads the league in receiving roughing the passer calls while Mahomes is 7th
  • Since 2018 Allen has received 38 roughing the passer calls while Mahomes has 31 in his favor
  • Mahomes has drawn 7 roughing the passer calls in playoff games since 2018. In that same time period the next closest are Josh Allen, Tom Brady, and Phillip Rivers (2 earned).
  • Over the past two years the Chiefs been hit with penalties 47 (307 yrds) times in the 4th quarter of one score games. Their opponents sit at 48 penalties (340 yrds)
  • The Bills lead the league in earning unnecessary roughness calls this year (12 in favor) while the Chiefs are tied for 30th (2 in favor)
  • The Chiefs lead the league in committing offensive holding penalties (31). Almost half of those belong to Jawaan Taylor, lol.
  • The Chiefs are above league average in committing offensive holding, defensive pass interference, unnecessary roughness, neutral zone infractions, illegal block above the waist, illegal use of hands, unsportsmanlike conduct, horse collar tackle, and weirdly player out of bounds on kick off (2)
  • Bills are 3rd in the league in penalty differential (+183) while the chiefs are 16th (+20)
  • Chiefs are on a streak of 11 playoff games in a row without committing more penalties than their opponents.
  • The Bills lead the league in false starts (31).

Last nights game

Bills were flagged 8 times (6 accepted) for a total of 48
Chiefs were flagged 6 times (5 accepted) for a total of 26 yards
The league average is 6.4 per game

Bills penalties
Facemask X2
Illegal Formation X2
Pass interference
Offside
defensive holding
Unnecessary Roughness

Chiefs Penalties
Defensive holding
Pass interference X2
Offsides
False Start
Illegal use of the hands

These all seemed pretty straight forward penalties and I am sure there were plenty the refs didn't catch for both teams What's the common saying, Let 'em play? The catch at the end of the first half certainly looks like it hit the ground and the spot on the Bills 4th down was bad, especially when two refs called it very differently.


I still don't see that changing the out come of the game; he Bills made a lot of mistakes. Even if you take away a TD at the end of the 1st half and replace it with a field goal, the Chiefs still had the ball at the end of the game with plenty of time to score the go ahead.


The perception is that the Chiefs are getting tons of help from the refs and that's why they are so successful. I don't think the numbers bear that out. They are a solid football team that can dial it up when they need to.
Ag_07
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All good info but you can't overlook the calls that were not penalties.

The two biggest being the long deep ball that should've been ruled an INT or incomplete pass but instead gave KC a 1st and GOAL, and the awful spot on Allen's rush on 4th down that would've given BUF a 1st down and a chance at taking the lead late in the game.
62strat
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Ag_07 said:

All good info but you can't overlook the calls that were not penalties.

The two biggest being the long deep ball that should've been ruled an INT or incomplete pass but instead gave KC a 1st and GOAL, and the awful spot on Allen's rush on 4th down that would've given BUF a 1st down and a chance at taking the lead late in the game.

Yep both of these.
That completed pass:
Bills guy had two hands wrapped around it, chiefs receiver had one hand on it, and it hits the ground.
3 different outcomes possible, but a completed pass should be 0%.
Southlake
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Pretty good job by the refs last night. 2 judgement calls that can be argued either way went to the Chiefs.

Be nice to have a chip in the football to acertain forward progress.

Even if the Chiefs are not awarded that catch, there was still a defensive holding penalty against Buffalo that would have resulted in a first down for the Chiefs.


I actually thought Buffalo was a bit tight and did not play at the same level as they did in their last 10 games. KC played like they had been there before. ( surprise)
"Real skill comes without effort" - Mu Bai
62strat
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Southlake said:



Even if the Chiefs are not awarded that catch, there was still a defensive holding penalty against Buffalo that would have resulted in a first down for the Chiefs.

yeh.. but about 30 yards back. not 1st and goal.
nai06
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Ag_07 said:

All good info but you can't overlook the calls that were not penalties.

The two biggest being the long deep ball that should've been ruled an INT or incomplete pass but instead gave KC a 1st and GOAL, and the awful spot on Allen's rush on 4th down that would've given BUF a 1st down and a chance at taking the lead late in the game.
I mentioned both of those calls. It was either going to be a completed pass for KC or an incomplete pass. No way it ends up as an INT based on the rules. If it's incomplete, they kick a FG and put three on the board instead of seven. (EDIT-I completely forgot the defensive holding on that play which would have given them a first down. I still don't think Buffalo stops them at that point).



Both officials had bad spots on that call, just in different directions. My take is that he likely just barely made the line to gain (certainly didn't cross it as much as the one official thought). Watching all the replays, there isn't an unobscured view of where the ball is in relation to looking directly down the line to gain (at least not that I have seen). It really was that close. What really throws people off is the TV broadcast view which is angled from behind the LOS. When looking at it from that view, it seems like he made it several feet over the line to gain when he really didn't.

Even if you give the Bills the 1st down, there is no guarantee they get more than 3 on the board with tons of time left on the clock. It was a close game for sure and the Chiefs pulled out a win. But not because of the refs.

Scotty Appleton
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One ref had a view of the ball and marked it a first down. The other saw Allen's back and marked it short. They went with the guy who couldn't see the ball. That is unarguable.

The other big miss that benefited KC was the blatant block in the back on the long punt return. Defender had a beeline on the PR, and got shoved right past him as he made his break left. That was a bad miss.
62strat
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let's not also forget about the blatant miss of delay of game going into half time at the two minute warning. The play clock was lower than game clock.. but they just let it expire, and then a second later.. oh, two minute warning.

No time out needed, no delay of game for chiefs.



W
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now do the Chiefs vs. Texans divisional round game
W
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and kind of the bottomline...

the Chiefs' talent does not match a 17-2 record (regular season + playoffs)

especially as compared to their 16-3 Super Bowl opponent with Saquon, A.J. Brown, et al
nai06
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W said:

and kind of the bottomline...

the Chiefs' talent does not match a 17-2 record (regular season + playoffs)

especially as compared to their 16-3 Super Bowl opponent with Saquon, A.J. Brown, et al
How do you figure? They are not some juggernaut of talent the their record reflects that. Of those 17 regular season games, they won something like 10 of them by one score. Their two losses were to the Bills by 9 and Denver by 38 (lets be honest that was an exhibition game).

5 Dollar Footlong
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As has been pointed out numerous times, officials influence games by what they call or do not call. I didn't watch yesterday, because why bother but it is of absolutely no surprise that while Buffalo was flagged for 2 illegal formation calls the Chiefs were called a whopping 0 times.
This despite the fact that their tackle sets up off the line practically every snap. He did it last week against Houston, he did it against Baltimore early in the season when the Ravens were getting called for it and no doubt he did it every game. I'm gonna take a WASG and say he probably jumped the snap count multiple times and it wasn't called either.
Once again for those who want to think this is all legit it's just ...ahem..interesting how the calls or lack thereof always seem to benefit KC.
Kansas Kid
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You guys realize on the delay of game issue at the end of the 2nd quarter that they had been advised that under the officials mechanics (as explained on the telecast), they didn't have to run a play because there was less than a second differential. Do you really think they wouldn't have either run a play or called a timeout if they weren't told that?

I also love that those that hate the Chiefs say the far side official had the right placement and not the near side official. I can say as someone that has had to call those plays many times, neither official had a great view from the field. The default is to use the official on the closer side to the tackle which was the near side. I still haven't seen a clear view of the ball showing it was over. If Allen had it in the other arm, it was a clear first down. Do I think he got it, probably but it sure wasn't as clear as some people are making it out to be.
Nom de Plume
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There's a lot of dumb butthurt on this thread just like on social media.

It wasn't a delay of game at the two minutes warning. This has been talked about ad nauseum.

The 3rd and 4th down spots were close. There was no indisputable evidence. And I'd argue when you have the biggest baddest QB in the league it shouldn't be a question. Pick up 2+ yards every time. The Chiefs shut that **** down on multiple occasions.

The Worthy catch was close, but the DPI that wasn't called on that play wasn't close. Either way the ball ends up there.

If you didn't watch the game, why are you here *****ing about the game?

SB LIX Mahomes jersey ordered! I watched about 500 Chiefs losses and will relish every one of the big victories.
MookieBlaylock
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Gee no bias on that load of bs
Yewenjie
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Simple solution. Do not watch the super bowl
Southlake
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I remember the same accusations against the Pats and Steelers during their dynasties. Same with Notre Dame back when they were top 5 every year. No calls went against MJ. The better teams always get the benefit of the doubt.
"Real skill comes without effort" - Mu Bai
Kansas Kid
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If the NFL was rigged, wouldn't the most valuable franchise have been in the Super Bowl within the last 30 years?
IrishAg
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As a butthurt Texans fan, I'll throw in on the Chiefs as they drive me nuts. No, I don't think the NFL is rigging the games, no I don't even think the refs intentionally call it unfairly, even though they do end up doing just that. What I believe is going on here is that the Chiefs (like a lot of other teams) have brought in analysts (there was a big deal about Vrabel stealing his guy back that he had with the Titans that came up with the time loophole) who go through the games and find all the little nuances of rule enforcement and coach specific players how to act depending on who refs the game.

So, the Chiefs know how far they can push things before a flag is thrown, they know if they can mouth off without getting a penalty to get the other team to commit one, and they know (specifically Mahomes) when they can flop to draw out a penalty. That's what's going on here, not some grand conspiracy, just good ol' data analysis.

While I can usually give props to someone doing their work in the detail, the problem I have with this, is that this is the same **** that started the NBA path into the toilet bowl. So, I just hope that the NFL realizes this and starts to adjust course to figure out a way to put an end to it.
Kansas Kid
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The problem with your thesis is the stats don't support it. Your thesis would say the Chiefs will get fewer penalties yards than their opponents.

2024 reg Season penalty yards Chiefs 829 Opp 849
2023 reg season. Chiefs 845 Opp 604
2022 reg season Chiefs 838. Opp 734

Btw, I would be shocked if any team in the NFL doesn't have a scouting report on every football crew and their tendencies. Just like teams, crews do have different ways of calling games especially issues like holding and pass interference.
WES2006AG
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Kansas Kid said:

The problem with your thesis is the stats don't support it. Your thesis would say the Chiefs will get fewer penalties yards than their opponents.

2024 reg Season penalty yards Chiefs 829 Opp 849
2023 reg season. Chiefs 845 Opp 604
2022 reg season Chiefs 838. Opp 734

Btw, I would be shocked if any team in the NFL doesn't have a scouting report on every football crew and their tendencies. Just like teams, crews do have different ways of calling games especially issues like holding and pass interference.
Nobody cares about the regular season. Most of this horrifically bad, game changing, officiating is happening in the playoffs.
Ag_07
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If you don't think it financially helps the NFL significantly to have the Chiefs on TV as many times as possible then I've got some ocean front property in AZ to sell you.

The Swift aspect in this entire thing is very real and very lucrative to the NFL.

They most certainly have an incentive to keep them around and in the playoffs.
62strat
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Kansas Kid said:

If the NFL was rigged, wouldn't the most valuable franchise have been in the Super Bowl within the last 30 years?
why would they do that? They don't need to, those fans stand by the team even w/o a superbowl win.

BMX Bandit
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very astute post.


on the missed calls, they do go KC's way more often than not. but the other posters complaining about the 2 minute warning clock are only hurting their argument.
IrishAg
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Kansas Kid said:

The problem with your thesis is the stats don't support it. Your thesis would say the Chiefs will get fewer penalties yards than their opponents.

2024 reg Season penalty yards Chiefs 829 Opp 849
2023 reg season. Chiefs 845 Opp 604
2022 reg season Chiefs 838. Opp 734

Btw, I would be shocked if any team in the NFL doesn't have a scouting report on every football crew and their tendencies. Just like teams, crews do have different ways of calling games especially issues like holding and pass interference.
Actually it wouldn't, it would just show that they have more critical penalties called than their opponents. Just like yardage doesn't mean you have a good offense or defense I think it's the same here.

Overall, I've been ranting about the chefs for the last year and especially after our game, but at the end of the day as someone else said it makes no sense to have the NFL "rig things" to get the KC as the champs. There are so many teams in much larger markets that have more influential owners and markets which would make sense to influence them winning. And the whole Swift thing doesn't matter as it just adds some money to the coffers, but doesn't supplant the normal ungodly amount of money running in.

So what's the reason they seem to always get the calls, to have a statistical anomaly in winning close games, to just always find a way to win right now? Mahomes and the talent around him is a major part, but the amount of success doesn't equal the amount of talent on that team, so this is the only thing that really makes sense that I can think of. So, that's my guess after looking into how much teams have started spending on analyst for rule analysis.
nai06
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Because this is all so very silly, lets play this out.

The suggestion is that the NFL (presumably Roger Goodell) is telling all of the officiating crews to favor the Chiefs in their games either by throwing more flags for their opponents, not calling penalties against the Chiefs, favoring them in terms of calls (catch v. incomplete, spots, etc) and making sure the replay booth is also supporting them. All because Taylor Swift is dating one of the players and the Chiefs now have a chance to go for a three peat and that will translate to more money for the NFL.

-The complaints about preferential treatment predate Taylor Swift dating Travis Kelce

-There are 138 NFL officials, that is a **** load of people to keep control of. At the very least you would have to have at the very least all of the head officials (17) on board as well as a good number of replay officials (17).

-What's the incentive for the officials to favor the Chiefs? Money?
How are you going to pay that many people and keep it under the table?
How will you keep them quiet and from talking?
What if they ask for more or threaten to talk?

You are asking officials to take a huge risk that would have them violate numerous state and federal laws. They would be looking a serious jail time, financial ruin, and most likely death threats. I wouldn't put it past someone to actually kill an official over something like this. This isn't college sports or one guy placing bets on a team like Pete Rose. This would be an actual wide scale criminal conspiracy that could ruin so many people and really harm the NFL.

It's all absurd nonsense.
Ag_07
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Kansas Kid said:

If the NFL was rigged, wouldn't the most valuable franchise have been in the Super Bowl within the last 30 years?

Even Uncle Roger can't fix it enough for the Cowboys to be in the SB.

There's a difference in fixing games here and there to help a good team seem great and fixing it to let a crappy team with no talent make it all the way to the SB.
62strat
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nai06 said:

Because this is all so very silly, lets play this out.

The suggestion is that the NFL (presumably Roger Goodell) is telling all of the officiating crews to favor the Chiefs in their games either by throwing more flags for their opponents, not calling penalties against the Chiefs, favoring them in terms of calls (catch v. incomplete, spots, etc) and making sure the replay booth is also supporting them. All because Taylor Swift is dating one of the players and the Chiefs now have a chance to go for a three peat and that will translate to more money for the NFL.

-The complaints about preferential treatment predate Taylor Swift dating Travis Kelce

-There are 138 NFL officials, that is a **** load of people to keep control of. At the very least you would have to have at the very least all of the head officials (17) on board as well as a good number of replay officials (17).

-What's the incentive for the officials to favor the Chiefs? Money?
How are you going to pay that many people and keep it under the table?
How will you keep them quiet and from talking?
What if they ask for more or threaten to talk?

You are asking officials to take a huge risk that would have them violate numerous state and federal laws. They would be looking a serious jail time, financial ruin, and most likely death threats. I wouldn't put it past someone to actually kill an official over something like this. This isn't college sports or one guy placing bets on a team like Pete Rose. This would be an actual wide scale criminal conspiracy that could ruin so many people and really harm the NFL.

It's all absurd nonsense.
hah.. who says roger goodall is behind some massive scheme?

I just think the refs make bad calls that favor the chiefs often. Has nothing to do with how many flags or how many yards.


https://www.facebook.com/reel/2022253821553569

This is why the ball needs to be chipped. Some dude 20 yards away is responsible for calling this, and it has huge consequences.
I'm really surprised the NFL hasn't chipped the ball yet.
texagbeliever
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nai06 said:

Because this is all so very silly, lets play this out.

The suggestion is that the NFL (presumably Roger Goodell) is telling all of the officiating crews to favor the Chiefs in their games either by throwing more flags for their opponents, not calling penalties against the Chiefs, favoring them in terms of calls (catch v. incomplete, spots, etc) and making sure the replay booth is also supporting them. All because Taylor Swift is dating one of the players and the Chiefs now have a chance to go for a three peat and that will translate to more money for the NFL.

-The complaints about preferential treatment predate Taylor Swift dating Travis Kelce

-There are 138 NFL officials, that is a **** load of people to keep control of. At the very least you would have to have at the very least all of the head officials (17) on board as well as a good number of replay officials (17).

-What's the incentive for the officials to favor the Chiefs? Money?
How are you going to pay that many people and keep it under the table?
How will you keep them quiet and from talking?
What if they ask for more or threaten to talk?

You are asking officials to take a huge risk that would have them violate numerous state and federal laws. They would be looking a serious jail time, financial ruin, and most likely death threats. I wouldn't put it past someone to actually kill an official over something like this. This isn't college sports or one guy placing bets on a team like Pete Rose. This would be an actual wide scale criminal conspiracy that could ruin so many people and really harm the NFL.

It's all absurd nonsense.

You don't have to pay anyone. After each performance you grade based on protecting of NFL assets. Mahomes + Swift + Kelce is $$$. It would be insane to think the 50-50 calls wouldn't go there way.

Also in the regular season KC beat the falcons when their dB was allowed to tackle Pitts before the ball got there in the end zone. It was egregious.
Kansas Kid
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The problem with chipping the ball is it can't tell when a knee or other body part is down or if forward progress is truly stopped or if the player is retreating. Even in a play like the one in question, did it cross the line after the player was already down either by contact or forward momentum? The best chance you have if you are the NFL to get a play like the 4th down right is to have a camera right above the line to gain but that has other potential issues including safety if the camera falls like the skycams have had happen.
62strat
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AG
Kansas Kid said:

The problem with chipping the ball is it can't tell when a knee or other body part is down or if forward progress is truly stopped or if the player is retreating. Even in a play like the one in question, did it cross the line after the player was already down either by contact or forward momentum? The best chance you have if you are the NFL to get a play like the 4th down right is to have a camera right above the line to gain but that has other potential issues including safety if the camera falls like the skycams have had happen.
So because it might only be helpful on say 75% of the plays, they just don't do it at all?

Makes sense.

It was never a question in this play whether or not allen had a knee down. He was upright.
Kansas Kid
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texagbeliever said:

nai06 said:

Because this is all so very silly, lets play this out.

The suggestion is that the NFL (presumably Roger Goodell) is telling all of the officiating crews to favor the Chiefs in their games either by throwing more flags for their opponents, not calling penalties against the Chiefs, favoring them in terms of calls (catch v. incomplete, spots, etc) and making sure the replay booth is also supporting them. All because Taylor Swift is dating one of the players and the Chiefs now have a chance to go for a three peat and that will translate to more money for the NFL.

-The complaints about preferential treatment predate Taylor Swift dating Travis Kelce

-There are 138 NFL officials, that is a **** load of people to keep control of. At the very least you would have to have at the very least all of the head officials (17) on board as well as a good number of replay officials (17).

-What's the incentive for the officials to favor the Chiefs? Money?
How are you going to pay that many people and keep it under the table?
How will you keep them quiet and from talking?
What if they ask for more or threaten to talk?

You are asking officials to take a huge risk that would have them violate numerous state and federal laws. They would be looking a serious jail time, financial ruin, and most likely death threats. I wouldn't put it past someone to actually kill an official over something like this. This isn't college sports or one guy placing bets on a team like Pete Rose. This would be an actual wide scale criminal conspiracy that could ruin so many people and really harm the NFL.

It's all absurd nonsense.

You don't have to pay anyone. After each performance you grade based on protecting of NFL assets. Mahomes + Swift + Kelce is $$$. It would be insane to think the 50-50 calls wouldn't go there way.

Also in the regular season KC beat the falcons when their dB was allowed to tackle Pitts before the ball got there in the end zone. It was egregious.

The issue is on Texags and essentially every fan site there is a belief that every sport except for maybe women's swimming is rigged/tilted to help a team. As proof, name a game when the Aggies won because of the officials because people can name a ton of games where we were screwed. This despite the fact that the only documented cases of rigging have been one off games where there was gambling involved.

How do people really think this happens in every league/sport and yet not be documentary/article has come out about it? I especially love because fans from both sides of a game are convinced the game is being called in favor of the other team by the officials and announcers.
texagbeliever
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Yes people are going to see bias against themselves.

That said the NFL is in the business to make $$. Stars-> eyeballs-> $$. So you can expect stars to make the superbowl. Now I don't think the superbowl would be rigged.
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