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Legal ramifications against Camp Mystic

134,663 Views | 894 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by Gunny456
John Cocktolstoy
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Brazos, you are absolutely correct. I have it on good authority that conversations were next to none, and a few times attorneys scolded the Eastland's. But it was on the other side also. They were told to not have private conversations with the Eastland's. I understand it, but I heard some of the parents say how the Eastland's never said anything to them, and they should have known why. It's a mess. Legal stuff always is.
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DannyDuberstein
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If they hired someone else to run it. They have no experience with appropriate safety protocols and the decision-maker is no longer here. All they have are some "doers" whose experience in appropriate safety plans and precautions is woefully inadequate. And I'm not just talking floods. Their plan didn't really cover any kind of emergency. No drills ever.
John Cocktolstoy
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DannyDuberstein said:

If they hired someone else to run it. They have no experience with appropriate safety protocols and the decision-maker is no longer here. All they have are some "doers" whose experience in appropriate safety plans and precautions is woefully inadequate. And I'm not just talking floods.

The decision maker not being there might be the biggest reason it would work.
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DannyDuberstein
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Well, all that is left are followers with no training or experience. Like I posted, they would have to hire it out, and not just a little consulting
Gunny456
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Every single camp/park that has facilities/living quarters down in that river valley is at risk from another rain event. People better learn from these events. Plan or not.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

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DannyDuberstein
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One issue I do have to call out is that parents were lied to about the security presence. They were told 24/7 and that was not true. There was an 8-10 hour stretch uncovered daily, and if Glenn had listened to Dick, he would have been off shift and gone from the site when it got bad. If they reopened, that would leave me wondering what is real vs what is not regarding new protocols put in place
dermdoc
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John Cocktolstoy said:

DannyDuberstein said:

If they hired someone else to run it. They have no experience with appropriate safety protocols and the decision-maker is no longer here. All they have are some "doers" whose experience in appropriate safety plans and precautions is woefully inadequate. And I'm not just talking floods.

The decision maker not being there might be the biggest reason it would work.

Wow, that is a pretty big change of your opinion.
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dermdoc
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Gunny456 said:

Unless the Guadalupe came on a bad rise again.

I would be willing to wager that it would be handled totally different with no deaths.
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Gunny456
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I admire your confidence on that. The only real 100% way for that to definitely happen would be to not have buildings/facilities in the river valley period imo.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

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TexasRebel
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I would only be willing to wager that it'd be handled totally different.
FM 949
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TexasRebel said:

I would only be willing to wager that it'd be handled totally different.


Agreed.
John Cocktolstoy
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dermdoc said:

John Cocktolstoy said:

DannyDuberstein said:

If they hired someone else to run it. They have no experience with appropriate safety protocols and the decision-maker is no longer here. All they have are some "doers" whose experience in appropriate safety plans and precautions is woefully inadequate. And I'm not just talking floods.

The decision maker not being there might be the biggest reason it would work.

Wow, that is a pretty big change of your opinion.

Not really, going solely on what has been posted. You never know, it could be much worse or much better. Everything will be hindsight now. I just want some better folks checking these places that house so many kids.
And I would like to see a monument. A really nice one! It would be forever a reminder and these girls would speak forever!
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dermdoc
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Gunny456 said:

I admire your confidence on that. The only real 100% way for that to definitely happen would be to not have buildings/facilities in the river valley period imo.

We have a basic disagreement on whether this was so bad that basically nothing could be done vs with just a little plan, like using the loudspeakers to order evacuation of all the campers, nobody would have died. If you watch Garrett's presentation, it is pretty obvious to me that with just a modicum of preparation that there would have been no deaths.
So I am confident that with different leadership and a plan that there would be no deaths with another flood of this magnitude or maybe even a bigger one.
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John Cocktolstoy
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So I am confident that with different leadership and a plan that there would be no deaths with another flood of this magnitude or maybe even a bigger one.

Now if it was different leadership during this event, it could have been worse also. I think anyone outside of the people that were there will take matters super seriously.
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Gunny456
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We don't have a disagreement. I never have said anywhere that it was so bad that nothing could have been done. I agree 100% that there was negligence on Mystic's part to not have a plan in place as they should have known the danger that the river could impose.
With that being said, I've been around catastrophic flash floods and other similar weather events as a first responder, and realize that even with the best plans people can still perish in those events.
My opinion is that if the best plan, best warning, etc. had indeed happened some folks may have still perished.
I'm also confident that had the event happened at 1:00 in the afternoon in daylight, instead of the dead of night, things could've been much different, albeit some people would still have probably perished.
The only 100% way to insure this never happens again is to not have folks within that river valley when an event like this happens again…..and that isn't reality at this point in time with all what's been developed and built in the river valley.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
txags92
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BrazosDog02 said:

txags92 said:

TexasRebel said:

Taking the blame that water fell from the sky at an unprecedented rate?


If you were taking care of your neighbors house and a huge flood came and you were unable to save their dog and cat from drowning in the house. Would you feel bad about it? Would you apologize to them or at least share condolences for the loss of their beloved family pets? I would.

Now imagine you were being paid and trusted to take care of their kid instead and 27 of their kids died in a flood while in your care. Would you feel bad? Would you think it at least appropriate to reach out and express your thoughts and prayers for their loss? I would.


I would as well but….and this is a "yes, but"……they had a family member attorney on staff. I've been instructed by Mya attorney that with incidences with my business and even fender benders….i don't say **** to the other guy. No "I'm sorry", no "wish that didn't happen"…nothing. I don't chit chat, I don't answer the persons questions. I show them my policy and insurance information and keep my mouth shut. The only person I speak to is the officer for a police report if so warranted.

All of that is because of the potential of litigation at the time. Even if I am sorry, I don't say anything. So….maybe….they were instructed the same immediately. We all knew the parents were going to sue them once things calmed down…and that's exactly what happened. So maybe mystic wanted to say something….or maybe they are dicks. I don't know.

I was making the same argument you are to Dermdoc months ago, and he was correct in his response. This was not a fender bender or a business dispute. These are parents whose child died while in your care. There is a human side to this where expressing some level of condolence is appropriate and meaningful even if you disagree over who was at fault. I totally get that their lawyers don't want the Eastlands personally having unscripted conversations with the families that are suing them, but there is no reason why they couldn't craft something in writing that would express how sad they are that the girls died while not overtly taking responsibility for it legally. Some level of humanity between the two parties would be expected, and in my opinion, the lack of it coming from the Eastlands is a mistake on the part of their lawyers because it will likely influence some of the potential jury pool for any coming trials. It makes them come across as uncaring and unremorseful and that is something they should be avoiding, not just to be human, but to appear human from a legal angle.
KerrAg76
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Agree Gunny, that is pretty much my thoughts as well.
Gunny456
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dermdoc
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Agree.
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txags92
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Gunny456 said:

We don't have a disagreement. I never have said anywhere that it was so bad that nothing could have been done. I agree 100% that there was negligence on Mystic's part to not have a plan in place as they should have known the danger that the river could impose.
With that being said, I've been around catastrophic flash floods and other similar weather events as a first responder, and realize that even with the best plans people can still perish in those events.
My opinion is that if the best plan, best warning, etc. had happened some folks may have still perished.
I'm also confident that had the event happened at 1:00 in the afternoon in daylight, instead of the dead of night, things could've been much different, albeit some people would still have probably perished.
The only 100% way to insure this never happens again is to not have folks within that river valley when an event like this happens again…..and that isn't reality at this point in time with all what's been developed and built in the river valley.

That was my point from the very beginning. During the day, you can see the water rising, everybody is awake and functioning, and even in the midst of a storm, it is not hard to get them all moving up the hill to evacuate. My beef is with having kids sleeping in cabins in the flood plain during a flood watch/warning. If they had a gym or enclosed pavilion or dining hall up the hill, it would be easy to just send everybody up the hill, roll out the sleeping pads, and have a camp night in the gym until the threat is gone. Nobody would ever have to worry about how high the water might get or when is the right time to evacuate if you just remove everybody from the floodable areas before the hazard exists in the first place.
Gunny456
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I regret I can't give you but one blue star. So much dead on agree!
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

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dermdoc
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Great idea!
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Benny the Jet Rodriguez
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txags92 said:

BrazosDog02 said:

txags92 said:

TexasRebel said:

Taking the blame that water fell from the sky at an unprecedented rate?


If you were taking care of your neighbors house and a huge flood came and you were unable to save their dog and cat from drowning in the house. Would you feel bad about it? Would you apologize to them or at least share condolences for the loss of their beloved family pets? I would.

Now imagine you were being paid and trusted to take care of their kid instead and 27 of their kids died in a flood while in your care. Would you feel bad? Would you think it at least appropriate to reach out and express your thoughts and prayers for their loss? I would.


I would as well but….and this is a "yes, but"……they had a family member attorney on staff. I've been instructed by Mya attorney that with incidences with my business and even fender benders….i don't say **** to the other guy. No "I'm sorry", no "wish that didn't happen"…nothing. I don't chit chat, I don't answer the persons questions. I show them my policy and insurance information and keep my mouth shut. The only person I speak to is the officer for a police report if so warranted.

All of that is because of the potential of litigation at the time. Even if I am sorry, I don't say anything. So….maybe….they were instructed the same immediately. We all knew the parents were going to sue them once things calmed down…and that's exactly what happened. So maybe mystic wanted to say something….or maybe they are dicks. I don't know.

I was making the same argument you are to Dermdoc months ago, and he was correct in his response. This was not a fender bender or a business dispute. These are parents whose child died while in your care. There is a human side to this where expressing some level of condolence is appropriate and meaningful even if you disagree over who was at fault. I totally get that their lawyers don't want the Eastlands personally having unscripted conversations with the families that are suing them, but there is no reason why they couldn't craft something in writing that would express how sad they are that the girls died while not overtly taking responsibility for it legally. Some level of humanity between the two parties would be expected, and in my opinion, the lack of it coming from the Eastlands is a mistake on the part of their lawyers because it will likely influence some of the potential jury pool for any coming trials. It makes them come across as uncaring and unremorseful and that is something they should be avoiding, not just to be human, but to appear human from a legal angle.

Yes, there are plenty of reasons why this doesn't happen. People don't have to like it, but that's how it always has been and always will be when there is a legal dispute. I know nothing about the Eastlands and have never heard of them until this, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they do care and probably would've liked to be able to say something, but that's not reality. I don't know why people can't understand that. I certainly don't take their silence to mean they don't care and anyone who does is incredibly naive and overly pessimistic.
Gunny456
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Our little farm on the Guadalupe had a nice flat area about 10' elevation above the normal river pool that was way below our house which was another 50' or so up on a hill.
We oftentimes had kinfolk and friends that would camp down there during the summer, holidays, etc.
If it ever started raining, or if someone said it was raining upstream, my dad was adamant about getting everybody up to the house pronto!
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

Boat racing is like a beautiful woman.......expensive, high maintenance, but well worth the fun!
dermdoc
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Benny the Jet Rodriguez said:

txags92 said:

BrazosDog02 said:

txags92 said:

TexasRebel said:

Taking the blame that water fell from the sky at an unprecedented rate?


If you were taking care of your neighbors house and a huge flood came and you were unable to save their dog and cat from drowning in the house. Would you feel bad about it? Would you apologize to them or at least share condolences for the loss of their beloved family pets? I would.

Now imagine you were being paid and trusted to take care of their kid instead and 27 of their kids died in a flood while in your care. Would you feel bad? Would you think it at least appropriate to reach out and express your thoughts and prayers for their loss? I would.


I would as well but….and this is a "yes, but"……they had a family member attorney on staff. I've been instructed by Mya attorney that with incidences with my business and even fender benders….i don't say **** to the other guy. No "I'm sorry", no "wish that didn't happen"…nothing. I don't chit chat, I don't answer the persons questions. I show them my policy and insurance information and keep my mouth shut. The only person I speak to is the officer for a police report if so warranted.

All of that is because of the potential of litigation at the time. Even if I am sorry, I don't say anything. So….maybe….they were instructed the same immediately. We all knew the parents were going to sue them once things calmed down…and that's exactly what happened. So maybe mystic wanted to say something….or maybe they are dicks. I don't know.

I was making the same argument you are to Dermdoc months ago, and he was correct in his response. This was not a fender bender or a business dispute. These are parents whose child died while in your care. There is a human side to this where expressing some level of condolence is appropriate and meaningful even if you disagree over who was at fault. I totally get that their lawyers don't want the Eastlands personally having unscripted conversations with the families that are suing them, but there is no reason why they couldn't craft something in writing that would express how sad they are that the girls died while not overtly taking responsibility for it legally. Some level of humanity between the two parties would be expected, and in my opinion, the lack of it coming from the Eastlands is a mistake on the part of their lawyers because it will likely influence some of the potential jury pool for any coming trials. It makes them come across as uncaring and unremorseful and that is something they should be avoiding, not just to be human, but to appear human from a legal angle.

Yes, there are plenty of reasons why this doesn't happen. People don't have to like it, but that's how it always has been and always will be when there is a legal dispute. I know nothing about the Eastlands and have never heard of them until this, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they do care and probably would've liked to be able to say something, but that's not reality. I don't know why people can't understand that. I certainly don't take their silence to mean they don't care and anyone who does is incredibly naive and overly pessimistic.

I don't disagree with what you posted. If that is the case, in this instance that would be horrible legal advice in my opinion. I see a ton of people in my daily walk and most know of our loss. They are almost as incensed as how Mystic responded after the event as how they acted during the event itself. And as I have posted, I have had experience in lawsuits, once as a defendant that I won, and also as an expert. This is so damaging to the jury perception.
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dermdoc
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And the nurse not reporting the deaths is so strange to me as a doc. And this affects the jury perception also.
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Gunny456
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Agree. I would have thought their attorneys would have had them immediately issue at least a statement expressing their sorrow for what happened. Hell, airlines do that whenever there is a crash and it's not an admission of guilt and I'm sure Boeing or McDonnell-Douglas has some of the best attorneys in the world.
I don't totally buy in that their attorneys told them not to issue anything…..don't know. But if the attorneys did in fact told them not to, I agree with you that is a bad look all the way around.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

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txags92
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Benny the Jet Rodriguez said:

txags92 said:

BrazosDog02 said:

txags92 said:

TexasRebel said:

Taking the blame that water fell from the sky at an unprecedented rate?


If you were taking care of your neighbors house and a huge flood came and you were unable to save their dog and cat from drowning in the house. Would you feel bad about it? Would you apologize to them or at least share condolences for the loss of their beloved family pets? I would.

Now imagine you were being paid and trusted to take care of their kid instead and 27 of their kids died in a flood while in your care. Would you feel bad? Would you think it at least appropriate to reach out and express your thoughts and prayers for their loss? I would.


I would as well but….and this is a "yes, but"……they had a family member attorney on staff. I've been instructed by Mya attorney that with incidences with my business and even fender benders….i don't say **** to the other guy. No "I'm sorry", no "wish that didn't happen"…nothing. I don't chit chat, I don't answer the persons questions. I show them my policy and insurance information and keep my mouth shut. The only person I speak to is the officer for a police report if so warranted.

All of that is because of the potential of litigation at the time. Even if I am sorry, I don't say anything. So….maybe….they were instructed the same immediately. We all knew the parents were going to sue them once things calmed down…and that's exactly what happened. So maybe mystic wanted to say something….or maybe they are dicks. I don't know.

I was making the same argument you are to Dermdoc months ago, and he was correct in his response. This was not a fender bender or a business dispute. These are parents whose child died while in your care. There is a human side to this where expressing some level of condolence is appropriate and meaningful even if you disagree over who was at fault. I totally get that their lawyers don't want the Eastlands personally having unscripted conversations with the families that are suing them, but there is no reason why they couldn't craft something in writing that would express how sad they are that the girls died while not overtly taking responsibility for it legally. Some level of humanity between the two parties would be expected, and in my opinion, the lack of it coming from the Eastlands is a mistake on the part of their lawyers because it will likely influence some of the potential jury pool for any coming trials. It makes them come across as uncaring and unremorseful and that is something they should be avoiding, not just to be human, but to appear human from a legal angle.

Yes, there are plenty of reasons why this doesn't happen. People don't have to like it, but that's how it always has been and always will be when there is a legal dispute. I know nothing about the Eastlands and have never heard of them until this, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they do care and probably would've liked to be able to say something, but that's not reality. I don't know why people can't understand that. I certainly don't take their silence to mean they don't care and anyone who does is incredibly naive and overly pessimistic.

We will have to agree to disagree. The Eastlands could have sent every family a hand-written card saying something like "We send our condolences for the loss of your daughter in the recent flood and are praying for the Lord's peace to be upon you in this difficult time. At an appropriate time in the future, we would welcome the opportunity to discuss with you and the other families who lost loved ones a fitting memorial to your daughters at the camp." And hand signed it by the whole family and staff. It wouldn't have brought their daughters back, but it would have acknowledged their loss in a personal way that would not affect the future court cases at all.

There is no legal risk in such a statement. It doesn't take blame for anything. It doesn't have value to a plaintiffs' attorney to prove anything. But it is a humane and decent thing to do for people who have lost a child. I guess it shouldn't be surprising to me that lawyers would be against trying to show any sign of humanity or decency when there are court cases to be won. (I say that last part in jest...mostly, but it is hard not to feel that way in situations like this).
dermdoc
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txags92 said:

Benny the Jet Rodriguez said:

txags92 said:

BrazosDog02 said:

txags92 said:

TexasRebel said:

Taking the blame that water fell from the sky at an unprecedented rate?


If you were taking care of your neighbors house and a huge flood came and you were unable to save their dog and cat from drowning in the house. Would you feel bad about it? Would you apologize to them or at least share condolences for the loss of their beloved family pets? I would.

Now imagine you were being paid and trusted to take care of their kid instead and 27 of their kids died in a flood while in your care. Would you feel bad? Would you think it at least appropriate to reach out and express your thoughts and prayers for their loss? I would.


I would as well but….and this is a "yes, but"……they had a family member attorney on staff. I've been instructed by Mya attorney that with incidences with my business and even fender benders….i don't say **** to the other guy. No "I'm sorry", no "wish that didn't happen"…nothing. I don't chit chat, I don't answer the persons questions. I show them my policy and insurance information and keep my mouth shut. The only person I speak to is the officer for a police report if so warranted.

All of that is because of the potential of litigation at the time. Even if I am sorry, I don't say anything. So….maybe….they were instructed the same immediately. We all knew the parents were going to sue them once things calmed down…and that's exactly what happened. So maybe mystic wanted to say something….or maybe they are dicks. I don't know.

I was making the same argument you are to Dermdoc months ago, and he was correct in his response. This was not a fender bender or a business dispute. These are parents whose child died while in your care. There is a human side to this where expressing some level of condolence is appropriate and meaningful even if you disagree over who was at fault. I totally get that their lawyers don't want the Eastlands personally having unscripted conversations with the families that are suing them, but there is no reason why they couldn't craft something in writing that would express how sad they are that the girls died while not overtly taking responsibility for it legally. Some level of humanity between the two parties would be expected, and in my opinion, the lack of it coming from the Eastlands is a mistake on the part of their lawyers because it will likely influence some of the potential jury pool for any coming trials. It makes them come across as uncaring and unremorseful and that is something they should be avoiding, not just to be human, but to appear human from a legal angle.

Yes, there are plenty of reasons why this doesn't happen. People don't have to like it, but that's how it always has been and always will be when there is a legal dispute. I know nothing about the Eastlands and have never heard of them until this, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they do care and probably would've liked to be able to say something, but that's not reality. I don't know why people can't understand that. I certainly don't take their silence to mean they don't care and anyone who does is incredibly naive and overly pessimistic.

We will have to agree to disagree. The Eastlands could have sent every family a hand-written card saying something like "We send our condolences for the loss of your daughter in the recent flood and are praying for the Lord's peace to be upon you in this difficult time. At an appropriate time in the future, we would welcome the opportunity to discuss with you and the other families who lost loved ones a fitting memorial to your daughters at the camp." And hand signed it by the whole family and staff. It wouldn't have brought their daughters back, but it would have acknowledged their loss in a personal way that would not affect the future court cases at all.

There is no legal risk in such a statement. It doesn't take blame for anything. It doesn't have value to a plaintiffs' attorney to prove anything. But it is a humane and decent thing to do for people who have lost a child. I guess it shouldn't be surprising to me that lawyers would be against trying to show any sign of humanity or decency when there are court cases to be won. (I say that last part in jest...mostly, but it is hard not to feel that way in situations like this).

Exactly. It is frankly bizarre.
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Gunny456
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Well. Twice in one day I again regret I have but one blue star for your post. Well said txags92. Well said.
TAMU Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

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DannyDuberstein
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As someone who deals with lawsuits against a Fortune 100 all the time, early intervention and support can go a long way to not getting your pants sued off. There is absolutely a way to do it without putting yourself at legal risk of acknowledging fault
dermdoc
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Gunny456 said:

Our little farm on the Guadalupe had a nice flat area about 10' elevation above the normal river pool that was way below our house which was another 50' or so up on a hill.
We oftentimes had kinfolk and friends that would camp down there during the summer, holidays, etc.
If it ever started raining, or if someone said it was raining upstream, my dad was adamant about getting everybody up to the house pronto!

And the Eastlands had been on the Guadalupe for decades. I don't understand why they did not react like your dad. It makes no sense to me.
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dermdoc
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DannyDuberstein said:

As someone who deals with lawsuits against a Fortune 100 all the time, early intervention and support can go a long way to not getting your pants sued off. There is absolutely a way to do it without putting yourself at legal risk of acknowledging fault

They teach us that as docs also.
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DannyDuberstein
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Yep, in our case, we have thousands of truck drivers on the road at any given time. Accidents happen, and some involve major injuries and death. While some are our driver's fault, the majority are not (we aren't hiring sketch drivers, we have in-cab cams, 360 cams, heavily incentivize a safe record, etc). But for anything deemed "potentially significant" (ie there is a non-minor injury or worse) whether it could be our fault or not, we have boots on the ground right away providing support. Doesn't always mean they aren't going to come after us by any means, but it can be done without having any bearing on determination of fault.
Prince_Ahmed
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raidernarizona said:

How do you define "abandoned"?!
You shouldn't believe everything you read or hear in the media!

How does the State of Texas not have any culpability? Everyone is sh*tting on the EAP of Mystic. I agree it was lacking, but how many times had DSHS audited their counselor manuals? Easier to just blame the Eastlands.

That's the Texas Board of Nursing's word for Mary Elizabeth Eastland's actions:

" CHARGE III.
On or about July 4, 2025, while serving as a Registered Nurse, Supervising Nurse, Camp Nurse, Director, and Chief Health Officer with Camp Mystic, Hunt, Texas, Respondent abandoned the campers and staff when the camp site began to flood at approximately 0200 by evacuating herself and her children to higher ground without providing any assistance or direction to all of the other campers and staff. "

She also agreed to that word describing her actions in court:

Question from attorney: "It seemed like you only helped the children whose names were Eastland. Is that correct?" .

She responded to the attorney, telling her that those were the only ones that she could get to.

"These were first year campers. You had 34 more years of experience than Cile. She needed your help, and you abandoned her, didn't you?" the attorney asked.

"Yes," Mary said.
 
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