Barney was where they moshed in the moat.
Thoughts on Wolf Pen Creek Amphitheater Makeover?
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Last: 4 mo ago by Bob Yancy
Are you new here?
If there is going to be a music venue, most of us would prefer it be a private one. I don't trust the city government here but about as far as I can throw them with my bad shoulder (Except for Bob)…
The mayor, the city manager, and the economic development lady conspired together for a multimillion dollar boondoggle across the street at Macy's. Now the former economic development lady is trying to push Northgate high rises (no conflict of interest there, move along, nothing to see)…
Still, Macy's sits idle, costing us money and returning nothing in taxable income for the city. Hey! We need to raise taxes so we can pay the police and fire guys… buried in the fine print is their debt maintenance, new water wells ( which if the news is right, we no longer need…), Macy's etc. I'm sure they will sell it at a huge loss sooner or later. All this is for illustrative purposes.
To get to your question… We've had several private venues. Most did not make it. The Hall of Fame, Hurricane Harry's, and Rockies/Stampede all went under. One would think that with the high population of students, a venue would be successful. So, either the previous ones were mismanaged, or, the area can't support something like this. I'm leaning towards the area not being able to support something like this.
If there is going to be a music venue, most of us would prefer it be a private one. I don't trust the city government here but about as far as I can throw them with my bad shoulder (Except for Bob)…
The mayor, the city manager, and the economic development lady conspired together for a multimillion dollar boondoggle across the street at Macy's. Now the former economic development lady is trying to push Northgate high rises (no conflict of interest there, move along, nothing to see)…
Still, Macy's sits idle, costing us money and returning nothing in taxable income for the city. Hey! We need to raise taxes so we can pay the police and fire guys… buried in the fine print is their debt maintenance, new water wells ( which if the news is right, we no longer need…), Macy's etc. I'm sure they will sell it at a huge loss sooner or later. All this is for illustrative purposes.
To get to your question… We've had several private venues. Most did not make it. The Hall of Fame, Hurricane Harry's, and Rockies/Stampede all went under. One would think that with the high population of students, a venue would be successful. So, either the previous ones were mismanaged, or, the area can't support something like this. I'm leaning towards the area not being able to support something like this.
Hornbeck said:
Are you new here?
If there is going to be a music venue, most of us would prefer it be a private one. I don't trust the city government here but about as far as I can throw them with my bad shoulder (Except for Bob)…
The mayor, the city manager, and the economic development lady conspired together for a multimillion dollar boondoggle across the street at Macy's. Now the former economic development lady is trying to push Northgate high rises (no conflict of interest there, move along, nothing to see)…
Still, Macy's sits idle, costing us money and returning nothing in taxable income for the city. Hey! We need to raise taxes so we can pay the police and fire guys… buried in the fine print is their debt maintenance, new water wells ( which if the news is right, we no longer need…), Macy's etc. I'm sure they will sell it at a huge loss sooner or later. All this is for illustrative purposes.
To get to your question… We've had several private venues. Most did not make it. The Hall of Fame, Hurricane Harry's, and Rockies/Stampede all went under. One would think that with the high population of students, a venue would be successful. So, either the previous ones were mismanaged, or, the area can't support something like this. I'm leaning towards the area not being able to support something like this.
To be fair....
The Hall was sold off by the estate or heirs or Johnny Lyon. They were offered a significant price for the land.
Harry's was also the victim of growth.
Both were pretty successful.
I agree with ALL of your other points.
It all started 30+ years ago when someone decided to open a restaurant in an old warehouse along the river, very close to the Hilton. Buzzard Billy's was a tremendous hit. Then, a developer bought the old warehouse across from the Hilton and developed that into shops and restaurants. Prior to this, that area of Waco was not a good place to be after dark. In the mid 90s, I worked for a company HQ'd out of the Chicago area. One of the VPs came down, we warned him to avoid the Hilton, but he said he was from Chicago and could take care of himself, that didn't stop the bullet that hit him while in the Hilton parking lot.johnnyblaze36 said:But why is that? I've seen some good acts in the past year in downtown Waco in their little square (Lukas Nelson, Band of Horses, REK).Hornbeck said:
I think the point several are trying to make is that, even with all this, we're not going to see a huge uptick in live entertainment.
If a bunch of money is spent, and we continue to get 1-2 acts a year apart from the city's cover band palooza in the summer along with the BYX Jesusfest, we're not going to be better off.
Why can Waco have nice things regularly but we can't? They get a diverse range of quality acts too at the Backyard all the time.
I'd think a rendering like Bob provided in this thread could be a nice draw, or at least I'd hope.
With the success of the restaurants and shops, other developers starting renovating other old locations, and some nice apartments were created in some of the old building.
Then, Chip & Joanna happened. They renovated "The Silos" and now have the largest tourist attraction in the state of Texas. More than 50,000 people per week come from out of town to visit the Silos.
Demand for space in that area is now high, the increase in property taxes has killed many struggling businesses, but opened the locations for people looking for space for their venture.
The City of Waco really wasn't involved, they just were not an impediment.
If only we could have nice things tooEMY92 said:
The City of Waco really wasn't involved, they just were not an impediment.
ZoneClubber said:I think the moat in between the audience and the stage is a big disconnect and I like the plan to fill it in and get the audience closer to the stage.Quote:
1. Go ahead and add the canopies to the amphitheater but don't get too hasty with the concrete, nor add permanent entry points. I liked how the amphitheater area blended in with the rest of the park.
Now keep in mind I've never been to concerts but I would think getting super-close is impractical for actually enjoying the concert (poor view, more bass than the music), so unless you have stans clawing to get as close to get to the stage as possible it wouldn't make sense. But maybe make into an orchestral pit as previously suggested...and I don't know if that little strip of water messes with acoustics.
johnnyblaze36 said:
But why is that? I've seen some good acts in the past year in downtown Waco in their little square (Lukas Nelson, Band of Horses, REK).
I did some looking into this--Brazos Nights has been operating for thirty years from an era where downtown Waco was not what it is now and eventually built up a reputation for better acts. Just with canopies and upgrades to the amphitheater will not make it an instant success.
UmustBKidding said:
Barney was a huge gathering at both shows in 1994 and the the eagle (behind paywall) in 2017 says Barney was largest event at wolf pen in the Rod Zent retirement article. I believe that JJW at the ditch was in the early 90's, probably was a far bigger show when he was at the speedway during the Willie Nelson July 4picnic in 74.
I don't know if the eagle is correct but that's was it says, at least in 2017.
I have access to Eagle archives and admission to the Barney event was only $5. It drew a big crowd with out-of-towners but with those tickets wasn't a huge money maker, especially since KidFest '94 was something that the city could never achieve again. (Willie Nelson played in 1995 and tickets were $20).
Hornbeck said:
To get to your question… We've had several private venues. Most did not make it. The Hall of Fame, Hurricane Harry's, and Rockies/Stampede all went under. One would think that with the high population of students, a venue would be successful. So, either the previous ones were mismanaged, or, the area can't support something like this. I'm leaning towards the area not being able to support something like this.
All of those are different examples. In 2003, the Eagle ran an article on the Texas Hall of Fame (which had just turned 25, not a failure by any stretch), Johnny Lyon was quoted as saying "It's probably because I'm hard- headed. ... We really are the last of Mohicans. There are a few new places opening up but really, it's not the same. Places like this are special."
Earlier in the article it mentioned how the audience had been dropping for years, and if crowds had thinned by 2003 the 2011 audience must have been abysmal.
Likewise, Hurricane Harry's had something like a 30-year-run, and while I don't know the exact circumstances of its demise it also had declining audience and by its last years was running on reduced rent, its owners seemingly given up.
Rockies jumped around a few times but I don't think it ever really recovered after someone drove a truck through it, even if it was physically repaired.
UmustBKidding said:
Barney was a huge gathering at both shows in 1994 and the the eagle (behind paywall) in 2017 says Barney was largest event at wolf pen in the Rod Zent retirement article. I believe that JJW at the ditch was in the early 90's, probably was a far bigger show when he was at the speedway during the Willie Nelson July 4picnic in 74.
I don't know if the eagle is correct but that's was it says, at least in 2017.
JJW was a Starlight performance. If we could have that type of talent (free concert) as we have in the past, then all the talk of what to do with the facility would be moot. Until the CS City Council started messing with it and now we can't get a decent crowd for the same thing year after year.
Best free concert we ever saw was Eddie Money at Wolf Pen around 2007. He was great.
What happened to the AgKickoff concerts that they would have there? Don't know who put them on, but they were a great time, kind of like a one day music fest.
Another data point here Steve Beachy as of this writing indicating that Barney was the largest show.
http://www.citystoriestexas.com/wolf_pen_creek_park.html
Page existed in 2020 with this claim, but may be older.
I just remember the craziness, want to say the attendance was north of 8500 for each show. Saw CSPARD article said they average attendance for shows there is 3200.
But the reality is I seriously doubt any show there drove any significant out of town visitors, but COCS spends HOT funds or lots of things that are questionable as far as eligibility.
http://www.citystoriestexas.com/wolf_pen_creek_park.html
Page existed in 2020 with this claim, but may be older.
I just remember the craziness, want to say the attendance was north of 8500 for each show. Saw CSPARD article said they average attendance for shows there is 3200.
But the reality is I seriously doubt any show there drove any significant out of town visitors, but COCS spends HOT funds or lots of things that are questionable as far as eligibility.
UmustBKidding said:
Another data point here Steve Beachy as of this writing indicating that Barney was the largest show.
http://www.citystoriestexas.com/wolf_pen_creek_park.html
Page existed in 2020 with this claim, but may be older.
I just remember the craziness, want to say the attendance was north of 8500 for each show. Saw CSPARD article said they average attendance for shows there is 3200.
But the reality is I seriously doubt any show there drove any significant out of town visitors, but COCS spends HOT funds or lots of things that are questionable as far as eligibility.
8500 for each show at $5 a pop means that Barney grossed $85k not including visitor restaurants and hotels, and I'm sure the City made a profit.
But this is why especially the upgrades fundamentally don't sit right with me--is the Amphitheater supposed to be a money-maker? Just recently we had the thing about the Bombers at Veterans Park and people here were up in arms about if College Station was actually trying to run the fields as a profitable venture or not.
Don't take this as "the city should never try to recoup losses, ever" quote but the idea of putting up a permanent fence around the facility (implied with the permanent gate entry points) just doesn't sit right with me. If you look at Waterloo Park in Austin (which hosts the Moody Amphitheater) there's no walls around the amphitheater beyond a few retaining walls, and no permanent gate entry points. The 2023 season had lots of recognizable names, including deadmau5, Three Doors Down, Kenny Loggins, Social Distortion, and several others, and all of them were paid ticketed events that involved temporary fencing which had to be installed and taken down. And if there were permanent fences, gates, and seating at Wolf Pen Creek Park (which will not get a host of recognizable names every season) I wouldn't trust the Parks Department to just leave it locked all the time (to save on the ever-increasing maintenance costs which will never be recouped), all while touting it as a "community asset".
It's already permanently fenced and usually locked
For me it was Earl Thomas Conley.halibut sinclair said:
Best free concert we ever saw was Eddie Money at Wolf Pen around 2007. He was great.
for me it was Jamey Johnson at veterans parkBaitShack said:For me it was Earl Thomas Conley.halibut sinclair said:
Best free concert we ever saw was Eddie Money at Wolf Pen around 2007. He was great.
I'm quite certain Koe Wetzel, Cody Johnson, Shane Smith and Treaty Oak Revival (as examples ) all had capacity crowds at Wolf Pen going back 5 years to recently. This is a clear indication of top names and demand. With the significant investment a 3rd party may spend on upgrades they would certainly want to book top talent. Those scoffing at the potential haven't been to these concerts
Back when the Starlight Music concerts had higher end bands, they were a lot more well-attended. As someone mentioned above, Eddie Money was great, Cowboy Mouth was another great show. It's been over a decade so I don't remember all the artists, but we used to go to 2-3 shows a year and the hill was nearly always full.ZoneClubber said:
I'm quite certain Koe Wetzel, Cody Johnson, Shane Smith and Treaty Oak Revival (as examples ) all had capacity crowds at Wolf Pen going back 5 years to recently. This is a clear indication of top names and demand. With the significant investment a 3rd party may spend on upgrades they would certainly want to book top talent. Those scoffing at the potential haven't been to these concerts
Note - I'm not saying the city should spend more money on these concerts. I'm saying, if the private sector wants to invest in more popular (and yes, more expensive) artists, it will certainly bring out a larger crowd. It's really a nice venue, and if they make some of these renovations, I suspect it will be even more popular.
May 16, 2024
halibut sinclair said:
Best free concert we ever saw was Eddie Money at Wolf Pen around 2007. He was great.
My buddy got kicked in the face by Eddie when he was "shaking". To be fair, he thought Eddie was having a seizure and tried to get on stage. I wish I had a video. One of the funniest things I've seen.
TyHolden said:halibut sinclair said:
Best free concert we ever saw was Eddie Money at Wolf Pen around 2007. He was great.
My buddy got kicked in the face by Eddie when he was "shaking". To be fair, he thought Eddie was having a seizure and tried to get on stage. I wish I had a video. One of the funniest things I've seen.
My college roommate and I nearly got in a fight with Eddie backstage at a show in Little Rock in the mid 90's.
Long story. But, Eddie was a drunk jackass from the minute his buss rolled in.
I've heard that about Eddie before.
Independence H-D said:TyHolden said:halibut sinclair said:
Best free concert we ever saw was Eddie Money at Wolf Pen around 2007. He was great.
My buddy got kicked in the face by Eddie when he was "shaking". To be fair, he thought Eddie was having a seizure and tried to get on stage. I wish I had a video. One of the funniest things I've seen.
My college roommate and I nearly got in a fight with Eddie backstage at a show in Little Rock in the mid 90's.
Long story. But, Eddie was a drunk jackass from the minute his buss rolled in.
Maybe he just wanted you to take him home that night
KBTX has seen this thread.
Surprise.
maroon barchetta said:
KBTX has seen this thread.
Slow news day…
Yeah. 8500 for two Barney shows (if there were indeed two as previous posts claim), $5 for tickets. 8500*2*5=85000. Yes, you can you use a calculator and post screenshots to TexAgs, am I supposed to be impressed?maroon barchetta said:PS3D said:UmustBKidding said:
Another data point here Steve Beachy as of this writing indicating that Barney was the largest show.
http://www.citystoriestexas.com/wolf_pen_creek_park.html
Page existed in 2020 with this claim, but may be older.
I just remember the craziness, want to say the attendance was north of 8500 for each show. Saw CSPARD article said they average attendance for shows there is 3200.
But the reality is I seriously doubt any show there drove any significant out of town visitors, but COCS spends HOT funds or lots of things that are questionable as far as eligibility.
8500 for each show at $5 a pop means that Barney grossed $85k not including visitor restaurants and hotels, and I'm sure the City made a profit.
Well, I guess things really have gotten bad around there.EliteElectric said:
It's already permanently fenced and usually locked
Didn't see it was two shows.
Back in the mid to late 90's there was an event called Duck Fest (or something like that). The event was held at Wolf Pen. It was an all day event with a concert in the evening. There were 3 bands I can't recall the first band but the second band was 38 Special and the head liner was Willie Nelson. The place was packed. Even had VIP viewing/seating near the stage. I believe if the amphitheater can be upgraded we could draw some nice acts similar to the Waco venue.
Ok so this thread has devolved a little from its intent. Basically I wanted to know if there would be a chorus of support, or a howl of protest, for some modest upgrades to WPC and a concerted effort to get some high profile talent in there.
I don't hear a thunderous chorus against it. My druthers, as one member of council, would be to consider any private sector proposals to spruce it up and book talent. Any such firm would have to do the work right and have proven capability before I could vote to turn them loose on what is a public good.
We would of course need guardrails regarding hours of operation and assurances that any events stay well in hand and orderly. But the bottom line for me is, it's been an underutilized asset that, in today's dollars, would cost tens of millions, and I'd like us to get more utility out of it for the benefit of local entertainment, and hopefully overnight tourism. By timing concerts before or after games and other high profile events, I think we could achieve that. That is a proven strategy used literally everywhere.
Perhaps we can get people to buy two tickets to paradise and pack their bags and leave tonite for College Station, Texas. ;-)
Thanks everyone for the useful feedback.
Respectfully
Yancy '95
I don't hear a thunderous chorus against it. My druthers, as one member of council, would be to consider any private sector proposals to spruce it up and book talent. Any such firm would have to do the work right and have proven capability before I could vote to turn them loose on what is a public good.
We would of course need guardrails regarding hours of operation and assurances that any events stay well in hand and orderly. But the bottom line for me is, it's been an underutilized asset that, in today's dollars, would cost tens of millions, and I'd like us to get more utility out of it for the benefit of local entertainment, and hopefully overnight tourism. By timing concerts before or after games and other high profile events, I think we could achieve that. That is a proven strategy used literally everywhere.
Perhaps we can get people to buy two tickets to paradise and pack their bags and leave tonite for College Station, Texas. ;-)
Thanks everyone for the useful feedback.
Respectfully
Yancy '95
My opinions are mine and should not be construed as those of city council or staff. I welcome robust debate but will cease communication on any thread in which colleagues or staff are personally criticized. I must refrain from comment on posted agenda items until after meetings are concluded. Bob Yancy 95
Duck Jam
Wvpd0707 said:
Back in the mid to late 90's there was an event called Duck Fest (or something like that). The event was held at Wolf Pen. It was an all day event with a concert in the evening. There were 3 bands I can't recall the first band but the second band was 38 Special and the head liner was Willie Nelson. The place was packed. Even had VIP viewing/seating near the stage. I believe if the amphitheater can be upgraded we could draw some nice acts similar to the Waco venue.
I vaguely remember that. I thought back then that despite the somewhat embarrassing start to the venue (the deluge of rain and resulting silt deposits) that we had some big time shows and a sea of people. Why was that momentum lost? Can it be reclaimed? I think so.
Respectfully
Yancy '95
My opinions are mine and should not be construed as those of city council or staff. I welcome robust debate but will cease communication on any thread in which colleagues or staff are personally criticized. I must refrain from comment on posted agenda items until after meetings are concluded. Bob Yancy 95
Just because it would cost tens of millions to get the land and build something like it doesn't mean it is worth tens of millions.
It's not intuitive to get out of the "cost is roughly equivalent to value" mindset. But I think it is important to recognize that it is not worth what it cost. Somebody doing better with it won't necessarily look like a multi-million dollar operation. So long as they are not using additional taxpayer money, it can still be a successful change
And overnight tourism is not something to spend a lot of General Fund money chasing. I don't believe hotel stays yield sales tax. And the city's sales tax rate is 1.5%.
If 8,500 out-of-towners came to a barney concert and spent $100 each on food and whatever else in College Station, not Bryan, that they otherwise wouldn't spend here:
That would be 8,500 * 100 * 0.015 = $12,750
If you were able to get that kind of event 52 weekends a year, which I hope you are not expecting, that would be $663k per year.
If you bring it closer to earth and make it 1,500 out of towners 30 weeks a year, which I still think is overly optimistic, it is $67.5k per year. That would almost cover payments on a 10 year 3% loan for $600k.
Dropping anywhere near a million from the General Fund, let alone significantly more than that, is going to be a waste.
It's not intuitive to get out of the "cost is roughly equivalent to value" mindset. But I think it is important to recognize that it is not worth what it cost. Somebody doing better with it won't necessarily look like a multi-million dollar operation. So long as they are not using additional taxpayer money, it can still be a successful change
And overnight tourism is not something to spend a lot of General Fund money chasing. I don't believe hotel stays yield sales tax. And the city's sales tax rate is 1.5%.
If 8,500 out-of-towners came to a barney concert and spent $100 each on food and whatever else in College Station, not Bryan, that they otherwise wouldn't spend here:
That would be 8,500 * 100 * 0.015 = $12,750
If you were able to get that kind of event 52 weekends a year, which I hope you are not expecting, that would be $663k per year.
If you bring it closer to earth and make it 1,500 out of towners 30 weeks a year, which I still think is overly optimistic, it is $67.5k per year. That would almost cover payments on a 10 year 3% loan for $600k.
Dropping anywhere near a million from the General Fund, let alone significantly more than that, is going to be a waste.
Brian Alg
My words are not intended to be disrespectful to any of the staid and venerable members of College Station City Council
My words are not intended to be disrespectful to any of the staid and venerable members of College Station City Council
maroon barchetta
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Brian Alg said:
Just because it would cost tens of millions to get the land and build something like it doesn't mean it is worth tens of millions.
It's not intuitive to get out of the "cost is roughly equivalent to value" mindset. But I think it is important to recognize that it is not worth what it cost. Somebody doing better with it won't necessarily look like a multi-million dollar operation. So long as they are not using additional taxpayer money, it can still be a successful change
And overnight tourism is not something to spend a lot of General Fund money chasing. I don't believe hotel stays yield sales tax. And the city's sales tax rate is 1.5%.
If 8,500 out-of-towners came to a barney concert and spent $100 each on food and whatever else in College Station, not Bryan, that they otherwise wouldn't spend here:
That would be 8,500 * 100 * 0.015 = $12,750
If you were able to get that kind of event 52 weekends a year, which I hope you are not expecting, that would be $663k per year.
If you bring it closer to earth and make it 1,500 out of towners 30 weeks a year, which I still think is overly optimistic, it is $67.5k per year. That would almost cover payments on a 10 year 3% loan for $600k.
Dropping anywhere near a million from the General Fund, let alone significantly more than that, is going to be a waste.
Brian have you ever taken your family to a fireworks show or free concert? A parade? Christmas in the Park? Not everything is about ROI, and as I've predicated on this thread we are likely to receive a private sector proposal for WPC. But even if we don't, if you've got a public sector asset with a replacement cost of $40m that you're not deriving maximum utility from, you don't think it warrants a modest, relatively speaking, investment to maintain and enhance as the years go by?
If it was all about ROI we wouldn't have a single park in the city. We wouldn't have a library, New York wouldn't have a Central Park, San Antone wouldn't have the Riverwalk. I'm as capitalist as anyone but there is such a thing as the public good, brother.
Respectfully
Yancy '95
My opinions are mine and should not be construed as those of city council or staff. I welcome robust debate but will cease communication on any thread in which colleagues or staff are personally criticized. I must refrain from comment on posted agenda items until after meetings are concluded. Bob Yancy 95
If your sentimentalism prevents you from being able to pull out a calculator and figure something like (these numbers are totally made up):
This free concert cost the taxpayers roughly $10k
Rough estimate of attendance is 2,000
That'd be $5 per person
Seems reasonable
Then you aren't going to be able to figure out when things become unreasonable
And if you are unwilling to use a calculator, you are going to have a really hard time figuring out what is warranted when it comes to WPC. I am blown away by how little discernment is done with these projects
I would totally be willing to help do some basic analysis with you if you want
Edit: and you are not as capitalist as anybody. Which is okay. But please stop saying it.
This free concert cost the taxpayers roughly $10k
Rough estimate of attendance is 2,000
That'd be $5 per person
Seems reasonable
Then you aren't going to be able to figure out when things become unreasonable
And if you are unwilling to use a calculator, you are going to have a really hard time figuring out what is warranted when it comes to WPC. I am blown away by how little discernment is done with these projects
I would totally be willing to help do some basic analysis with you if you want
Edit: and you are not as capitalist as anybody. Which is okay. But please stop saying it.
Brian Alg
My words are not intended to be disrespectful to any of the staid and venerable members of College Station City Council
My words are not intended to be disrespectful to any of the staid and venerable members of College Station City Council
I hate to just give this idea away. But, If you want people to pack their bags and leave tonight for College Station....
I have three words for you...
Santa's Water Park
I have three words for you...
Santa's Water Park