Had to turn the Hardline off this afternoon but what's new.
1310 The Ticket - Hardline Question
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Last: 7 hrs ago by double aught
DannyDuberstein said:
As far as why, for as long as this is a right protected by the Constitution, I want to see evidence that depriving an otherwise law-abiding citizen from getting one for some arbitrary period of time would be effective.
Your most recent evidence is that ~18 kids would be alive and not in school if the waiting period was an "arbitrary" ~10 days. This would seem effective in hindsight.
This guy bought these rifles on the first day he could. Seems extremely likely this has been a plan of his for a long time. There are waiting periods out there, most 3-5 days. California, the bastion of peacefulness and no gun violence, has 10 days
DannyDuberstein said:
This guy bought these rifles on the first day he could. Seems extremely likely this has been a plan of his for a long time.
I won't argue that this was his plan.
He turned 18 on may 16. If he has to wait 10 days, then these kids are enjoying their summer. And yes, I'm only answering the question you asked, and the issue is much broader than that.
It's a false assumption though. Could have done it the last day of school, May 26. Could have waited as he has been
not going to quibble with you. the likelihood of him going to the school on the last day (when there are parties, namely with parents) is probably lower; plus preparing for the attack would have to be accomplished in a few hours, not several days.
like i said, at the end of the day, i'm just using the hypothetical you brought up; not saying this would have 100% prevented uvalde or any other attack.
at the end of the day, our nation has an issue with its gun culture. you can blame a lone maniac in west texas just as much as thugs in chicago (...and many others). i just want the country to be better in this facet. if someone doesn't want that, then i don't know what to tell them.
the opposite of doing 'something,' in this regard, is doing nothing. and we're only doing the latter.
i don't have the answers but maybe start with the right questions.
like i said, at the end of the day, i'm just using the hypothetical you brought up; not saying this would have 100% prevented uvalde or any other attack.
at the end of the day, our nation has an issue with its gun culture. you can blame a lone maniac in west texas just as much as thugs in chicago (...and many others). i just want the country to be better in this facet. if someone doesn't want that, then i don't know what to tell them.
the opposite of doing 'something,' in this regard, is doing nothing. and we're only doing the latter.
i don't have the answers but maybe start with the right questions.
Just because we don't grab guns from legal owners doesn't mean we've done nothing.
Many districts have allowed staff to carry for years. Many allow corporal punishment. Every school has instituted safety procedures and protocols. Statewide (and nationwide but I have no experience working in other states) we spend millions upgrading doors, installing cameras, upgrading wireless and WAN backbone networks. Every school built is designed with multiple features to slow, deter, or stop attacks, or put staff in the way before an attack can reach students.
It's wrong, and basically a political talking point, to say "we are doing nothing".
Many districts have allowed staff to carry for years. Many allow corporal punishment. Every school has instituted safety procedures and protocols. Statewide (and nationwide but I have no experience working in other states) we spend millions upgrading doors, installing cameras, upgrading wireless and WAN backbone networks. Every school built is designed with multiple features to slow, deter, or stop attacks, or put staff in the way before an attack can reach students.
It's wrong, and basically a political talking point, to say "we are doing nothing".
we are doing nothing to change the gun culture in this nation. hth.
i'll add that every single item you point out talks about what schools are doing to protect themselves and nothing concerning the behavior of the potential perpetrators of attacks or the issues we have with guns in our society as a wholeDecay said:
Many districts have allowed staff to carry for years. Many allow corporal punishment. Every school has instituted safety procedures and protocols. Statewide (and nationwide but I have no experience working in other states) we spend millions upgrading doors, installing cameras, upgrading wireless and WAN backbone networks. Every school built is designed with multiple features to slow, deter, or stop attacks, or put staff in the way before an attack can reach students.
edit: couldn't get my gif to load
The problem isn't guns. It's a culture problem. Too many absent fathers, too many kids on mind altering drugs, too little value on life, not enough discipline, etc. Guns are so far down the list of issues they almost aren't worth addressing.
The shooter's 39 year old mom is living with a 62 year old boyfriend who said this kid was extremely anti-social and never speaks to anyone. The kid had intense fights with his mom and went to live with his grandmother 2 months ago after an intense fight over the wifi. Start counting the red flags
Hincemm said:
we are doing nothing to change the gun culture in this nation. hth.
Says you. The main driver of "culture" in this country, that is, media, has been increasingly anti-gun ever since they started portraying hunters as Bambi killers or idiotic Elmer Fudd. We're coming up on 80 years since Bambi, by the way.
"Gun culture" has been villified for so long that the gun owner is basically by default forced to defend and justify themselves. What more villification do you think we should institute? Do you understand that pushing on people harder and harder doesn't just produce intended outcomes?
Like I said before, we could ban cars if we want to save lives. Hell it'd be much easier to ban cars than guns. They're harder to hide, there's way fewer of them. If someone can't get to work, well they shouldn't be using something that kills so many people right? Get a bike or take the bus.
Decay said:Hincemm said:
we are doing nothing to change the gun culture in this nation. hth.
Says you. The main driver of "culture" in this country, that is, media, has been increasingly anti-gun ever since they started portraying hunters as Bambi killers or idiotic Elmer Fudd. We're coming up on 80 years since Bambi, by the way.
"Gun culture" has been villified for so long that the gun owner is basically by default forced to defend and justify themselves. What more villification do you think we should institute? Do you understand that pushing on people harder and harder doesn't just produce intended outcomes?
Like I said before, we could ban cars if we want to save lives. Hell it'd be much easier to ban cars than guns. They're harder to hide, there's way fewer of them. If someone can't get to work, well they shouldn't be using something that kills so many people right? Get a bike or take the bus.
- i think you could argue the current largest msm outlet is not anti-gun. the media though doesn't pull triggers but i'd agree it does exert influence, and most of it is not good (from all ideologies/outlets)
- the gun culture i'm talking about is vilifying. you may presume it's the one that wants to hunt game, defend itself, and shoot clay targets. but it's not. it's the gun culture that preys on others. you know this though, whether you like to admit it.
- i'm also not pushing anyone to any intended/unintended outcomes. please let me know where i'm pushing that agenda. i would argue that accusatory, inflammatory behavior is much more dangerous. there's a difference between blaming and determining root cause.
- your car ban argument is illogical, lazy, and - as you know - a strawman. you're smarter than this.
if you don't think there's a problem with gun culture, then say so. and please tell me why based on current events.
So how do we fix that problem? Honest question, how do we get less absent fathers? How do we instill more discipline, and promote the value of life? Make evangelism a priority within all churches regardless of denomination?powerbelly said:
The problem isn't guns. It's a culture problem. Too many absent fathers, too many kids on mind altering drugs, too little value on life, not enough discipline, etc. Guns are so far down the list of issues they almost aren't worth addressing.
If there's nothing the government can constitutionally do to fix those issues or incentivize those positive behaviors, then is there any hope? I can do my best to control these things within my nuclear family, but is there any hope to curb those issues with others in society?
EDIT: And I agree with you that I believe that is the major underlying issue
Your best hope is to raise your kids right, constantly demonstrate your love for them and their mom (even when she pisses you off), defend your family, and teach your family how to defend themselves. Some want to make it harder to do that based on false hope.
And if you compare you list to what Uvalde had in place most of those boxes were checked. Although I can't speak to corporal punishment or if/which teachers were carrying. Heck, the shooter was engaged by a SRO before entering the school. Then, once the cops got there, they stood outside waiting while parents shouted at them to go in (though they did manage to go in and pull their kids out).Decay said:
Just because we don't grab guns from legal owners doesn't mean we've done nothing.
Many districts have allowed staff to carry for years. Many allow corporal punishment. Every school has instituted safety procedures and protocols. Statewide (and nationwide but I have no experience working in other states) we spend millions upgrading doors, installing cameras, upgrading wireless and WAN backbone networks. Every school built is designed with multiple features to slow, deter, or stop attacks, or put staff in the way before an attack can reach students.
It's wrong, and basically a political talking point, to say "we are doing nothing".
Nothing the school or police had in place deterred or stopped the shooter. So while we "are doing something" that something apparently isn't working.
Cops that aren't willing to intervene with a school shooter, backup or no backup, have no business being a cop. You picked the job fellas. No one made you take it.
So there's nothing to be done from a society or government point of view in your opinion? With this thought process, shouldn't the government incentivize gun ownership and gun safety courses? Have it be a tax write-off or credit for money spent on gun safety courses for anyone in the family? Incentivize companies to push employees and their families through safety courses.DannyDuberstein said:
Your best hope is to defend your family and teach your family how to defend themselves.
What about government sponsored gun safety courses being mandatory for schools? That would obviously cost a ton of tax payers money in order to do that.
Honestly just trying to come up with some type of solution as opposed to doing nothing besides defending and teaching my family.
I'm talking about things we can control as individuals. Counting on the government or "society" is how you never get anywhere. If we all do that, then it changes
I edited before your post, but big picture is that a family where kids feel loved by both parents and the parents are engaged on their kids lives prevents a litany if issues. That is how you avoid this craziness, but you also have to teach your kids how to protect themselves. I'm not just talking about guns there tho. It can play one part, but there are many facets
I edited before your post, but big picture is that a family where kids feel loved by both parents and the parents are engaged on their kids lives prevents a litany if issues. That is how you avoid this craziness, but you also have to teach your kids how to protect themselves. I'm not just talking about guns there tho. It can play one part, but there are many facets
I agree wholeheartedly, but not everyone is like you and me. How do we promote or incentivize others to follow along? We can't control them, but how do we help push others along the same route? Is the only thing we can do is you and me doing a better job of talking about it with our friends and family members and encourage them to talk with others?DannyDuberstein said:
I'm talking about things we can control as individuals. Counting on the government or "society" is how you never get anywhere. If we all do that, then it changes
I don't know other than living it and demonstrating it. But maybe we start by incenting people who have no business having kids to not have kids. We're doing the opposite right now, and surprise, we end up with a disproportionate number of dysfunctional teens and adults in these situations
https://www.kens5.com/article/news/crime/two-teens-arrested-in-mass-casualty-plot-in-2018-targeting-a-uvalde-middle-school/273-548565605
Two kids, age 13 and 14, arrested in Uvalde in 2018 for planning a school attack. Were initially planning it for their senior year in 2022 but then discussed moving it up. Wonder if one of them was Ramos. If not, wonder if he picked up the mantle, so to speak.
Two kids, age 13 and 14, arrested in Uvalde in 2018 for planning a school attack. Were initially planning it for their senior year in 2022 but then discussed moving it up. Wonder if one of them was Ramos. If not, wonder if he picked up the mantle, so to speak.
DannyDuberstein said:
The shooter's 39 year old mom is living with a 62 year old boyfriend who said this kid was extremely anti-social and never speaks to anyone. The kid had intense fights with his mom and went to live with his grandmother 2 months ago after an intense fight over the wifi. Start counting the red flags
And it's not a problem that a person with all these "red flags" was able to legally buy two guns and 350 rounds the second he turned 18? The federal government just raised the tobacco age to 21, seems like doing the same with guns might allow the brain to more fully develop and for people to mature a little bit.
As long as we do voting and military service along with it. Basically, legally, we no longer consider 18 adulthood in any form.
Agreed. Compromise! Maybe we should send this thread to Washington.
Honestly I am fine with something like semi auto being 21 and up. Going on a shooting spree with a bolt action would be incredibly unlikely.
It's that pesky Constitution that doesn't protect your rights to smoke tobacky but does protect your right to arm yourself
The end of Gordo's corner was great. Uterus cereal and talking periods with George.
DannyDuberstein said:
https://www.kens5.com/article/news/crime/two-teens-arrested-in-mass-casualty-plot-in-2018-targeting-a-uvalde-middle-school/273-548565605
Two kids, age 13 and 14, arrested in Uvalde in 2018 for planning a school attack. Were initially planning it for their senior year in 2022 but then discussed moving it up. Wonder if one of them was Ramos. If not, wonder if he picked up the mantle, so to speak.
that is wild. timeline works out and uvalde is only 15k people. seems like there would be some connection but definitely goes against the "no previous red flags" narrative. if he's one of the two surely it would have been reported by now. if he is, scary that somebody like that could slip through the cracks.
Brace yourselves, boys: The Hardline will be broadcasting from Vector Brewing next Friday. Looking forward to the most awkward TexAgs meetup in history.
LHAHAHAHAA
This Joey Zanaboni (has to be a fake name) play by play audio is so ridiculous it must be a Hawkeye bit.
What am I missing here?J.P. 03 said:
Brace yourselves, boys: The Hardline will be broadcasting from Vector Brewing next Friday. Looking forward to the most awkward TexAgs meetup in history.
Charles Whitman ring a bell? He used bolt action hunting rifles, an M1 Carbine, shotguns and revolvers. As has been posted ad nauseum: If the mentally deranged individuals who do this want to find a way to do it, they will.Decay said:
Honestly I am fine with something like semi auto being 21 and up. Going on a shooting spree with a bolt action would be incredibly unlikely.
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