RangerRick9211 said:

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TxsAggieFn said:

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FIDO95 said:

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Has anyone had the experience of going from 28mm tires to 30mm?

I went to have a fitting done recently and they noted a crack my carbon frame near the rear derailleur. They gave me some guidance but recommended riding my current bike with caution. So now I'm looking a new bike and trying to decide between a Canyon Endurace (30mm) vs Canyon Ultimate (28mm). I've seen recent recommendations for moving to 30mm if you are doing more long, slow type rides as opposed to racing. I do enjoy the long, low stress rides more. The Endurace is obviously designed for that kind of riding but 30mm tires just seem like mountain bike tires to me!?

It would seem the wider tires would add comfort at the cost of a few watts. 3-5 is what I'm seeing with very little under 20m/hr where aerodynamics is less of an issue. Since I'm more of a causal rider, the argument for 30mm tires is that I'm more likely to notice the comfort than the watts. Any thoughts?

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I race road on 25's, but my gravel bike has 40's (slicks). In looking at similar solo rides, the speed difference is pretty consistently 1.5mph. While it's probably not linear, we can extrapolate out that 1mm = 0.1mph, so 0.2mph.

It should be noted that these similar rides are on pretty smooth roads. On rougher roads like chip/seal, there would be less speed difference as the wider tires would roll over imperfections better. You might not have a speed difference, and you'd gain some comfort. On longer rides & events, you might even be stronger at the end because of reduced fatigue.

So, I'd go with the 30's for a bike you're not racing if everything else is equal.

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Racing on 25s is so 10 years ago.

OP, I don't think you'll notice a difference between 28 and 30mm. Hint, if you're running 28mm tubeless you're probably already running close to 30mm. Rolling resistance and comfort overwhelmingly leans 28-30mm tubeless.

But tires should never the deciding factor between an Ultimate or Endurace. Buy for geometry - swapping tires is easy.

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In looking at similar solo rides, the speed difference is pretty consistently 1.5mph. While it's probably not linear, we can extrapolate out that 1mm = 0.1mph, so 0.2mph.

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Technically, the wider your go, the lower the rolling resistance and faster the tire:


Crr in isolation is real savings in watts and is linear with speed (the faster you go, the more watts Crr consumes; the larger the savings from a lower drag coefficient tire). There will be added grams as you go larger (so at some point grams will > Crr savings in watt terms). The wheel you choose to accompany a specific tire can either make it more or less aero. After 15 mph or so, aero is the driving drag force.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/grand-prix-5000-s-tr-comparison

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Well, I've been racing for over 40 years, so I do tend to find things that work and stick with them. If wider were always faster, everyone would be on fat bikes. We're on 25mm tubulars for crits and 23 mm tubulars for some road races (and up to 28mm tubeless in others). Depending on the event and track, 19-22mm (and over 200psi).

Wider is only better on certain surfaces, and at lower speeds. Racing is at higher speeds, and often on better surfaces. That's why we still use down to 19mm in some situations. Additionally, mass start racing is dynamic, so in addition to aerodynamics, the amount of mass that the additional rubber, additional rim material, and greater number air molecules that come with larger tires plays a hugely negative factor on every acceleration. As you pointed out, rolling resistance becomes less and less important after 15mph.

Back to common ground and the post that we were replying to: for that rider, wider is going to be better.

You also make a great point that the frame geometry is more important because tires and wheels are interchangeable. I'd add that a bike with greater range in width is probably a better choice. Then again, I use 40's on gravel when something narrower might be a little faster. That's because I HATE getting flats, and enjoy the extra comfort. But, I also use slime tubes for general gravel riding and only go tubeless for gravel races.

These conundrums and contradictions are part of the fun of cycling!

Thoughts on the Favero LOOK power meter pedals versus the SPD inserts?

What about bike computer for TT. I plan to use on rollers outside of races.

By the way if anyone hasn't figured it out if TxsAggieFn suggest anything about cycling it is best to listen, he knows his stuff

TxsAggieFn said:

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RangerRick9211 said:

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TxsAggieFn said:

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FIDO95 said:

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Has anyone had the experience of going from 28mm tires to 30mm?

I went to have a fitting done recently and they noted a crack my carbon frame near the rear derailleur. They gave me some guidance but recommended riding my current bike with caution. So now I'm looking a new bike and trying to decide between a Canyon Endurace (30mm) vs Canyon Ultimate (28mm). I've seen recent recommendations for moving to 30mm if you are doing more long, slow type rides as opposed to racing. I do enjoy the long, low stress rides more. The Endurace is obviously designed for that kind of riding but 30mm tires just seem like mountain bike tires to me!?

It would seem the wider tires would add comfort at the cost of a few watts. 3-5 is what I'm seeing with very little under 20m/hr where aerodynamics is less of an issue. Since I'm more of a causal rider, the argument for 30mm tires is that I'm more likely to notice the comfort than the watts. Any thoughts?

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I race road on 25's, but my gravel bike has 40's (slicks). In looking at similar solo rides, the speed difference is pretty consistently 1.5mph. While it's probably not linear, we can extrapolate out that 1mm = 0.1mph, so 0.2mph.

It should be noted that these similar rides are on pretty smooth roads. On rougher roads like chip/seal, there would be less speed difference as the wider tires would roll over imperfections better. You might not have a speed difference, and you'd gain some comfort. On longer rides & events, you might even be stronger at the end because of reduced fatigue.

So, I'd go with the 30's for a bike you're not racing if everything else is equal.

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Racing on 25s is so 10 years ago.

OP, I don't think you'll notice a difference between 28 and 30mm. Hint, if you're running 28mm tubeless you're probably already running close to 30mm. Rolling resistance and comfort overwhelmingly leans 28-30mm tubeless.

But tires should never the deciding factor between an Ultimate or Endurace. Buy for geometry - swapping tires is easy.

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In looking at similar solo rides, the speed difference is pretty consistently 1.5mph. While it's probably not linear, we can extrapolate out that 1mm = 0.1mph, so 0.2mph.

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Technically, the wider your go, the lower the rolling resistance and faster the tire:


Crr in isolation is real savings in watts and is linear with speed (the faster you go, the more watts Crr consumes; the larger the savings from a lower drag coefficient tire). There will be added grams as you go larger (so at some point grams will > Crr savings in watt terms). The wheel you choose to accompany a specific tire can either make it more or less aero. After 15 mph or so, aero is the driving drag force.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/grand-prix-5000-s-tr-comparison

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Well, I've been racing for over 40 years, so I do tend to find things that work and stick with them. If wider were always faster, everyone would be on fat bikes. We're on 25mm tubulars for crits and 23 mm tubulars for some road races (and up to 28mm tubeless in others). Depending on the event and track, 19-22mm (and over 200psi).

Wider is only better on certain surfaces, and at lower speeds. Racing is at higher speeds, and often on better surfaces. That's why we still use down to 19mm in some situations. Additionally, mass start racing is dynamic, so in addition to aerodynamics, the amount of mass that the additional rubber, additional rim material, and greater number air molecules that come with larger tires plays a hugely negative factor on every acceleration. As you pointed out, rolling resistance becomes less and less important after 15mph.

Back to common ground and the post that we were replying to: for that rider, wider is going to be better.

You also make a great point that the frame geometry is more important because tires and wheels are interchangeable. I'd add that a bike with greater range in width is probably a better choice. Then again, I use 40's on gravel when something narrower might be a little faster. That's because I HATE getting flats, and enjoy the extra comfort. But, I also use slime tubes for general gravel riding and only go tubeless for gravel races.

These conundrums and contradictions are part of the fun of cycling!

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Wider is only better on certain surfaces, and at lower speeds. Racing is at higher speeds, and often on better surfaces.

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If air didn't exist, we might!

Using your 40 gravel example for fun: Conti Terra Speed TR 40 gravel tires vs. an MTB tire, the Conti Race King XCs. Bicyclerollingresistance.com at medium pressure: 16 watts of Crr for the gravel vs. 14 watts of Crr for the MTB tire.

But, for every extra mm of width there's generally a .5 watt penalty at 20 mph.

So the extra 10 or so mm of XC tire is costing you 5 or so watts relative to the 40mm gravel; if you're averaging 20mph.

So, to your point, if becomes the use case. For me, in the PNW, we aren't flat and the MTB actually makes more sense for some gravel races for the lower Crr when there's lots of climbing involved (and doubly so if it's chunder / more extreme gravel).

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That's why we still use down to 19mm in some situations.

We're on 25mm tubulars for crits and 23 mm tubulars for some road races (and up to 28mm tubeless in others). Depending on the event and track, 19-22mm (and over 200psi).

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19mm?! Is there a situation outside of the velodrome? Genuinely curious.

Have you heard of the Marginal Gains podcast? It's hosted by the Silca owners and they deep dive a lot of these topics!

They have some interesting stuff comparing the PSI to minimize casing deflection / contact patch / friction vs. the surface impedance losses (how often is your power transferring to the surface).

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the amount of mass that the additional rubber, additional rim material, and greater number air molecules that come with larger tires plays a hugely negative factor on every acceleration.

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Have you transitioned to tape on your tubs or still gluing? I wonder what's the mass of your glue vs. my sealant on our road wheelsets.

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These conundrums and contradictions are part of the fun of cycling!

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Cheers.

Shifting topics, Olympic was bike only on Hurricane Ridge this past weekend. It's a great ride and always bike only the first Sunday every August!

RangerRick, let's see if I can clean this up a bit.

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Using your 40 gravel example for fun: Conti Terra Speed TR 40 gravel tires vs. an MTB tire, the Conti Race King XCs. Bicyclerollingresistance.com at medium pressure: 16 watts of Crr for the gravel vs. 14 watts of Crr for the MTB tire.

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That is very interesting. I would think that the knobs would have increased the Crr to the point they were slower. At / above 20mph, the knobs would increase aerodynamic drag, and I don't know the weight differences, but depending on the conditions (especially rougher surfaces) the MTB tire could have some huge advantages.

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19mm?! Is there a situation outside of the velodrome? Genuinely curious.

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Occasionally, we have TT's on very new roads or on car race tracks that have phenomenal surfaces. However, with the trend toward wider rims and some tires shaped to match the rim, it's becoming rarer that they are an advantage. I'm the director of a UCI team, and we happened to currently be at/near the top of the UCI Rankings in a couple track events, so track is always near and dear to our hearts.

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Have you heard of the Marginal Gains podcast? It's hosted by the Silca owners and they deep dive a lot of these topics!

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Rarely. I haven't ever heard anything breaking on there. They tend to take some of the data coming from the pro teams and certain manufacturers and then putting it out there. We're usually upstream from them. We have a great relationship with our sponsors so when we are doing testing, they are often willing to give us prototype product and help fund the test. It used to be that manufacturers did the testing in house. Now the teams are doing much of it themselves, and then going after specific sponsors as a result.

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Have you transitioned to tape on your tubs or still gluing? I wonder what's the mass of your glue vs. my sealant on our road wheelsets.

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Next time I glue tires on a new rim, I'll weigh the before and after. My educated guess would be 15g per tire (because I can usually get 2 glues out of a 30g tube).

We still use Mastik One glue, for a couple reasons. First, one of the other advantages of tubulars over clinchers / tubeless is that when they go flat, tubulars stay attached to the rim. That gives the rider a better chance of bringing the bike to a stop while upright. Few things in life have a bigger pucker factor than flatting a front on a huge downhill or a track at 70kph or more. The tapes simply don't stay on in those situations. When I glue a tire on, it usually has to be heated and cut off a rim. We also use that because Vittoria is a sponsor. I've found the Conti glue to be just as good.

WRT sealants, they do create a little internal friction as it sloshes around. Imagine a hamster wheel, with the sealant always coming down the upside. It's not huge, but when we're discussing Crr differences of <.001 in this thread, it is worth mentioning. We do some aero work with Dan Bingham and his crew, and I like to put stuff like this in his mechanic's ear just to see the tizzy it creates. And I'm a huge nerd on this stuff.

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Shifting topics, Olympic was bike only on Hurricane Ridge this past weekend. It's a great ride and always bike only the first Sunday every August!

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Amazing. That looks like a spiritual experience! Keep enjoying the ride!

I am so freaking upset

Bought my dream TT bike. Had the seller take it to a local shop. I communicated with them. They broke the bike down, wrapped everything in foam and put it in the original Canyon box. Shipped it to me using BikeFlights through UPS. Bike arrived Wednesday and I got to unpack it yesterday. Starting cutting away the foam and found one of the rear wheel stays appears to be cracked.

Oh man, that sucks.

I bought coverage and so I should be able to get it repaired like new without issue. But I will be without the bike for 2 months. I have a race in October I was hoping to use it.

which bike was it that you got?

Canyon Speedmax 7.0 CF

I'm still in a non-weight bearing status from my incident in June and doing PT 3x/week. Warming up for PT the last month has involved 10 minutes on the recumbent stationary bike. Yesterday, I hit 140 watts for around 30 seconds; my legs felt like they were going to fall off.

Potentially will be cleared to go from 0%-100% weight bearing status in just over a week...

absolutely beautiful bike.

If I find enough money to buy one, that's top of list right now. Just so hard to find though.

I bought it from a guy in Pennsylvania that didn't even use it.

That's horrible! I'll be curious to know if the coverage comes through and covers the cost of the repair. I'd be even more curious to know who you use to fix it and if you are happy with the end result.

I have a small crack at the end of the seat stay near the rear axle. The guys at the shop went back and forth on whether it was the carbon frame or just the paint at a point where the metal that holds axle meets the carbon of the seat stay. I decided to keep riding it for now but may get it looked at in the Winter when I ride less.

I have two quotes for about $850 each. One is Hex in Little Rock the other is Ruckus in Portland Oregon.

The real shot part is I have to have someone completely take the bike apart and ship only the frame. I included that cost, plus the reassembly, and my inconvenience fee in the claim request.

Anyone dong HH this come weekend?

Nitro Power said:

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Anyone dong HH this come weekend?

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I wish. Have you done it before? I did the 100k in 2017 and had a great time. I said I was going to go back but alas, life gets in the way. Good luck!

I am signed up for the Conquer the Coast ride in Corpus next month. I've done it a couple of times in years past. It's a 67mile loop around the Corpus Christi bay. It's not nearly as big but it's close and I can make that one happen.

FIDO95 said:

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Nitro Power said:

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Anyone dong HH this come weekend?

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I wish. Have you done it before? I did the 100k in 2017 and had a great time. I said I was going to go back but alas, life gets in the way. Good luck!

I am signed up for the Conquer the Coast ride in Corpus next month. I've done it a couple of times in years past. It's a 67mile loop around the Corpus Christi bay. It's not nearly as big but it's close and I can make that one happen.

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Do you live near in/near Corpus? We have a place on the island. I've never done CtC, but I've been wanting to.

I live near SA and have kids involved in way too much. Getting to Corpus is much easier then Wichita Falls.

I recommend it if you like long rides. Other then the bridges between Corpus and Portland and the one from Padre Island, it's really flat. The wind can be the biggest issue. The ride is really well supported with water stations every 10-15miles. They don't have the massive spreads like what you see at HHH but adequate enough.

FIDO95 said:

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I live near SA and have kids involved in way too much. Getting to Corpus is much easier then Wichita Falls.

I recommend it if you like long rides. Other then the bridges between Corpus and Portland and the one from Padre Island, it's really flat. The wind can be the biggest issue. The ride is really well supported with water stations every 10-15miles. They don't have the massive spreads like what you see at HHH but adequate enough.

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My main interest in doing it is to ride the bridges.

Usually when I am down there I just ride on the island down to the National Park or try to pick up some KOM's as interval training.

Ragoo said:

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I have two quotes for about $850 each. One is Hex in Little Rock the other is Ruckus in Portland Oregon.

The real shot part is I have to have someone completely take the bike apart and ship only the frame. I included that cost, plus the reassembly, and my inconvenience fee in the claim request.

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I cracked the chainstay on my carbon Madone a few years ago in a crit.

If you're near Houston, I worked with Bicycle Speed Shop to disassemble and shipped it to Hans Schneider in Huntsville, TX. It took two weeks; ~$1k for everything (disassembly, repair, paint and re-assembly). Just another anecdote.

Sucks, dude.

RangerRick9211 said:

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Ragoo said:

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I have two quotes for about $850 each. One is Hex in Little Rock the other is Ruckus in Portland Oregon.

The real shot part is I have to have someone completely take the bike apart and ship only the frame. I included that cost, plus the reassembly, and my inconvenience fee in the claim request.

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I cracked the chainstay on my carbon Madone a few years ago in a crit.

If you're near Houston, I worked with Bicycle Speed Shop to disassemble and shipped it to Hans Schneider in Huntsville, TX. It took two weeks; ~$1k for everything (disassembly, repair, paint and re-assembly). Just another anecdote.

Sucks, dude.

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thanks for the info. I think I have someone local identified through BikeMinded.guru and am getting the same $1000 estimate all in for the work.

My first time. I have heard a number of people talk about how fun it is.

The climbs up the bridges isn't all that bad but I'm used to riding in the hill country. What is didn't realize until I was on those bridges with a bicycle is how wide the expansion spans are between sections. I was convinced I was going to puncture a tire on one of those during the descends.

If you end up signing up, we will have to meet up in the beer tent afterwards! It's usually Dos XX but practically any beer is good after a long ride in the salty, beach air.

Nitro, good luck with your ride. I'm sure you will have a blast.

Every time I drive over those bridges, I think about that ride. It just never seems to fall at a good time for me. This year is no different with Masters Nationals this week, Gateway Cup next week, and both of my sons playing high school football. They don't play that Friday night, though...

If I come down, we'll definitely grab a beer afterwards. I'll be at a couple of the remaining Driveway races, too.

HtH and your Masters had me thinking, what's in your bidon these days?

I think I have a bad batch of Tailwind and it's been cramping my stomach on longer days. I have some Maurten samples, but I'm not paying for that. I might just go the table sugar route with a pinch of salt on hot days, but I haven't really drilled into the science to DIY.

First, let me say that you should never try something new at a big race. There's a 0.1% chance you'll nail it, and a 99.9% chance you'll shock your system and crater your race. For HHH this year, do what you've been doing in training and your other events.

I've found my best race-day nutrition plan really starts with and based on the day before. I don't race well on a full stomach. Having food in my stomach is my #1 cause of stomach cramps. If you're doing something self paced, like a rally or gran fondo, you can be more relaxed about your protocol and settle into your pace. If you're racing others and trying to win, you have to be ready from the gun to go all out. I can't do that on a full stomach. For those events, I eat my big meal at lunch time the day before. Among a certain circle, I'm well known for eating only a piece of chocolate cake the night before HHH, then being on the podium for the road race. So, lunch should be well balanced. Not terribly huge: something I can digest fully before the race starts the next day. Also, a trick I have found to speeding up digestion: chew your food really well. 30 chews per bite. This helps your body put more enzymes into the food, and everything is smaller so digests faster. Dinner for me is something very small, with just carbs. The simpler the carbs, the better. And chew it up well. Hydrate, but make sure it has electrolytes not just water (or get the salts through some foods). Don't want to strip the electrolytes out of your body digesting only water (and we tend to over-drink during this phase). I'll stay away from heavy things like too much meat, heavy cream sauces, etc.

Breakfast on race day is very small. In the last 10 years, coffee has made my muscles crampy on race day, so I actually drink either diet coke or a zero sugar monster when I wake up, a couple hours before the race. The key is to keep my caffeine intake within my normal morning range, not higher or lower than normal. Too high, and you'll be jittery and have to pee a lot. Not enough, and you will feel mentally slow. For food, I'll have a waffle or banana or something just so my stomach isn't growling. I don't want it full. I just don't want pangs. And chew it up very thoroughly.

Then throughout the race, I'll eat bars, gels, whatever I planned and had been doing in training (usually stinger waffles or bars early, simplifying to gels later as we get closer to crunch time / final sprint). If I get into an early break that looks like it might work, I start with the gels at first, then the more complex, then back to the gels for the sprint. If you're doing a gel with caffeine for the finish, I've found it takes about 30 minutes for it to kick in, so I know I need to have that about 15 miles out before the sprint.

We're sponsored by Pickle Juice, so that's my go to for sodium replacement / preventing muscle cramps, including the night before if we're all out to dinner and my only hydration option is water. Since starting that 5 years ago, I haven't had a single muscle cramp in any situation. I can nerd out about our protocol and best practices, if you want me to. Single best thing I can tell you is that it tastes bests when 1. it's cold, and/or 2. you're desperate. I'll freeze some of the shots, and keep them in my pocket for later in the race. I wish the packaging weren't so bulky when empty, but please don't litter. And drink it before you need it, although it will help greatly if you're already cramping.

As I said at the beginning, don't do anything drastic for a big race. Try everything out in training and at smaller events. Keep a journal, including the things you ate, drank, and did in the days leading up. Isolate variables and find what works best for you. Then keep in mind that your body changes as you age, keep the journal and testing in training. Then use that to create your race day plan.

Sorry this was long winded. I hope it gives you some ideas on how to start planning for future races, things to try in training, and helps you do your best.

My bottles have me at 1:0.8 maltodextrin:fructose, .4g citric acid, .75g salt. Usually go 33g:27g for 60g carbs/227cal an hour which is sufficient for most of my rides.

Thank you for the thorough response.

I'm not racing HtH this year, my last was in '19. My in-laws are in WF and I raced it for almost a decade, but haven't since we moved to the PNW. But, the thought of, and a brief heat spell here with a near bonk, had my mind on fueling. It's wild how de-acclimated I am to heat now. I'm a decently strong rider, 350'ish FTP, but I melt at 90+ heat. I usually dump normal sugar and a pinch of salt in a bottle, but with our heat I grabbed a bag of Tailwind and locked my stomach on a few rides. No idea.

For '24 I have Oregon Gravel Grind series, Race Across Oregon, and a few lifetime events marked for A-tier, including Leadville. I won't sniff the front, chase or even mention, but I like to push and fueling is a gap for me.

Great topic and useful info here, thanks. I'm new to cycling. Actually, I'm in the process of buying my first bicycle I've already figured out how to choose the right size. This article https://www.bikertricks.com/bike-size-chart/ provided me with all the needed info. But I can't choose a concrete model as I want to buy a bike to ride both, on a road and on trails.

Got the all clear to move from 0% to 100% weight bearing (as tolerated) yesterday. It was awkward and I needed crutches to make it happen and almost couldn't unclip when done, but I got on the trainer for 30 minutes last night to just spin at 100w/90rpm. I'm starting to feel it right now after being off the saddle for 3 months...

That's great news. Good luck with your continuing recovery.

I'm not expert in endurance nutrition. However, a have found the Cam Nicholls series very good for lots of things cycling. Below is one of the several videos on nutrition that has some good basic information. It's a really good view, has good information, and… did I already mention it is a really good view?!

Here's a TP article on carbs: https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/how-to-optimize-carbohydrate-absorption/.

I've been running simple table sugar and salt for a few weeks now. 3 tablespoons of sugar is 71g of glucose/fructose (50/50). I add a pinch of salt on hot days.

It works and I've had zero stomach issues. But my rides are now just hours of wanting to brush my teeth. The post-Coca Cola mouth feeling turned up to 11.

Anyone see this?