Just a little information to consider, if you were born after your father was exposed to Agent Orange, you need to be checked because the effects of Agent Orange can be passed down to the next generation or TWO.
The Vietnam War - Ken Burns & Lynn Novick
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Last: 8 yr ago by ABATTBQ87
The protesters got this one right. Amazing how clueless our leaders were. What a tragedy.
I think I've posted this before on something else about Vietnam, but my dad didn't serve. After seeing me join the Army and younger brother try to, but disqualified for medical reasons, he has said he wish he would have gone. He doesn't talk a lot about things back home, but he was basically a hippie and pretty sure a draft dodger. He had lots of friends go over and some who didn't come home. The few times we talk about it, I can tell he is generally hurt and maybe ashamed he didn't get drafted or enlist. Makes me sad to see him like this, but things could have been a lot different if he went.
On a lighter note, he used to surf in CA and would hang out with The Beach Boys. (Or so he claims)
On a lighter note, he used to surf in CA and would hang out with The Beach Boys. (Or so he claims)
Yes, LBJ certainly looks bad. JFK also had a chance to pull the troops out in the early 60s but refused to do so because of re-election. He didn't want to "look weak against communism". Lots of lives on his hands in effort to get re-elected.claym711 said:
This film makes LBJ and his entire administration look quite terrible.
The whole damn thing was a mess. It's a shame so many lost their lives.
I have a feeling that Nixon won't come out looking much better than LBJ in this film, seeing as how he prolonged the war for another 4 years, which was just long enough to get him through the 1972 election (at a cost of about another 22,000 American lives), before settling for peace terms in 1973 that weren't markedly different from what were considered in 1968.
Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, we were never really able to prove it was A/O. Dad smoked on and off most of his life and had quit about 6 years before the cancer hit. The type of lung cancer he had is not normally associated with smoking. He also grew up in oil field camps and worked oil fields most of his life. When he was diagnosed, he said there was just no way to track down what he had been exposed to that might have caused the cancer. This was before the A/O claim expansion the VA did in 2010. Dad was stationed at Tan Son Nhut from 65-66 so we damn sure know he was exposed to it some form.Aggie12B said:
Just a little information to consider, if you were born after your father was exposed to Agent Orange, you need to be checked because the effects of Agent Orange can be passed down to the next generation or TWO.
I can understand, somewhat, how your Dad felt. I got out in '98. By the time 9-11 rolled around I was fat and nasty and locked into law enforcement work. I will regret for the rest of my life, not getting back into uniform.
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I have a feeling that Nixon won't come out looking much better than LBJ in this film, seeing as how he prolonged the war for another 4 years, which was just long enough to get him through the 1972 election (at a cost of about another 22,000 American lives), before settling for peace terms in 1973 that weren't markedly different from what were considered in 1968.
I voted for Nixon the second time (too young the first), but you are exactly right. The great error of his presidency was not Watergate; it was getting Americans killed in Vietnam for another four years, for nothing.
You would think that a Republican willing to open up to China would have thought he had the political capital just to get out of the war, but like Kennedy and LBJ, he also took it personally and saw the protesters as personal threats to his power. He sent out his VP to attack them and the press. In hindsight, it's a pretty bad look.
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The protesters got this one right.
Having lived through it, I would say yes and no.
Protesters who actually wanted the North to win (there were many; look at all the NV and VC flags flying in the demonstrations) or who believed the war was immoral and the troops were babykillers were wrong, then and now.
I can appreciate the views of those comparatively few who believed, as I have come to believe, that the war began with good intentions as part of the Cold War and was a policy mistake--an abysmally tragic policy mistake made by men who were victims of their own preconceptions and saw Vietnam as a front in the Cold War. Even if it had been a vital front in that struggle, it just turned out not to be worth it.
As it turned out, Vietnam was not part of a monolithic Communist Party. We even supported them a few years later when they invaded Cambodia to take out Pol Pot.
One thing I have learned in this series is how Ho would have been more pragmatic and willing to negotiate (which would have gotten the North Vietnamese the victory they wanted in much the way it actually played out), but he was superseded by hardliners who were as much to blame for what happened as the Americans in charge.
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As it turned out, Vietnam was not part of a monolithic Communist Party. We even supported them a few years later when they invaded Cambodia to take out Pol Pot.
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I'm sure we would have supported Satan himself going in to take out that sonofa*****.
Thanks for sharing all of your personal accounts and memories. This has been a very interesting discussion.
I don't know my history of the political climate well enough to answer this question. If all of these politicians were afraid they would not get re-elected if they ended (or reduced) the US's participation in the war and appeared soft on communism, how accurate were their fears?
And if they would not have been re-elected for doing so, would people who would have continued or escalated the war been elected in their places?
I guess another way of putting it is that maybe the American voting public were just as culpable. That said, it sounds like the public did not have the complete story. Facts were withheld and a picture was painted of the war that was untrue -- by the very politicians who (in the documentary) say they hate the war and don't see the sense in it. By not being forthright with the public they create a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that if they de-escalate the US's involvement, they appear soft and could be voted out of office as a result.
If the American public had known about the true nature of the war, would they have wanted to get out of the war?
thanks again
I don't know my history of the political climate well enough to answer this question. If all of these politicians were afraid they would not get re-elected if they ended (or reduced) the US's participation in the war and appeared soft on communism, how accurate were their fears?
And if they would not have been re-elected for doing so, would people who would have continued or escalated the war been elected in their places?
I guess another way of putting it is that maybe the American voting public were just as culpable. That said, it sounds like the public did not have the complete story. Facts were withheld and a picture was painted of the war that was untrue -- by the very politicians who (in the documentary) say they hate the war and don't see the sense in it. By not being forthright with the public they create a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that if they de-escalate the US's involvement, they appear soft and could be voted out of office as a result.
If the American public had known about the true nature of the war, would they have wanted to get out of the war?
thanks again
Living through the Cold War was a different time. Communism was a real threat and people were scared, especially after the Cuban missile crisis. Looking back though, I think a lot of politicians played it up for their own personal gains. The North Vietnamese just wanted a unified country free of "outside invaders". They weren't going to come and take over the US.
Communism was really bad for the people of Eastern Europe and fortunately they were eventually able to overcome it. On the other hand, Vietnam has really thrived, although a lot of that has to do with the western influence on the country. Ironic, isn't it?
Kinda makes you think about Korea and how it might have turned out differently. Although now with a nutjob in charge in the north I guess that chance is gone.
Communism was really bad for the people of Eastern Europe and fortunately they were eventually able to overcome it. On the other hand, Vietnam has really thrived, although a lot of that has to do with the western influence on the country. Ironic, isn't it?
Kinda makes you think about Korea and how it might have turned out differently. Although now with a nutjob in charge in the north I guess that chance is gone.
The politicians were very wrong in this war on so many areas, but so was Westmorland in telling them time after time "send me more men and I will win this war".
My dad served as an infantryman in Vietnam, 2 tours. He survived thankfully. He never said a single word about that place until I started talking about taking a commission upon graduation. The next weekend when I was home, he took me (and a bottle of Jim Beam) to the back porch. For the next 3 hours, he told me his story. I sat there in silence and watched my dad cry for the first time ever. He told me of the time where he went on a patrol with 12 men. Only 2 came back. My dad was (and is) tough as nails. But on that night, he laid his heart out there for me to see. He made me promise to never say a word about it to Mom. I'll never forget that night.
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I don't know my history of the political climate well enough to answer this question. If all of these politicians were afraid they would not get re-elected if they ended (or reduced) the US's participation in the war and appeared soft on communism, how accurate were their fears?
You have asked an excellent, unanswerable question.
I assume the series will get to this when it covers 1968.
LBJ was primaried by Gene McCarthy, a peace candidate, in New Hampshire. McCarthy didn't win, but he came close, and LBJ withdrew from the race.
Then Robert Kennedy, who hated LBJ and sensing his political weakness, came into the race as a peace candidate. The original McCarthy supporters hated him for what seemed to be political opportunism, but Kennedy started winning primaries.
His assassination really changed things.
In those days, the actual popular vote from the primaries was less important than the "superdelegates" selected by the party apparatus who were more conservative. Hubert Humphrey, the VP, was their choice, and he won.
Humphrey had come to believe the war was unwinnable but was too loyal to LBJ (foolishly) to distance himself from his policies. The result of all these conflicting views was the Democratic National Convention, held in Chicago. It was an amazing, horrifying thing to watch on TV. Hardline anti-war people came there to destroy the convention; Mayor Daley was determined to crush them. One investigation later called it a "police riot," but both sides were to blame.
The effect of this nightmare, as it played out on the streets of Chicago and inside the convention hall and was witnessed by millions on TV, was to tilt the election to Nixon.
RFK probably had a pretty good chance to win the election if he had won the nomination, but that's just my guess, and who knows how long it would have taken him to get the troops out once he actually took office.
The Vietnam War really started the cultural chasm that remains with us to this day.
It is difficult for us to understand in today's political climate how much consensus there was between the Rep and Dem's in the 50's and early 60's. The major ideological and policy differences were not that far apart. You are right, Vietnam ruptured that and it is a wound that keeps getting infected and grows worse.OldArmy71 said:Quote:
I don't know my history of the political climate well enough to answer this question. If all of these politicians were afraid they would not get re-elected if they ended (or reduced) the US's participation in the war and appeared soft on communism, how accurate were their fears?
You have asked an excellent, unanswerable question.
I assume the series will get to this when it covers 1968.
LBJ was primaried by Gene McCarthy, a peace candidate, in New Hampshire. McCarthy didn't win, but he came close, and LBJ withdrew from the race.
Then Robert Kennedy, another peace candidate, came into the race. The original McCarthy supporters hated him for what seemed to be political opportunism, but Kennedy started winning primaries.
His assassination really changed things.
In those days, the actual popular vote from the primaries was less important than the "superdelegates" selected by the party apparatus who were more conservative. Hubert Humphrey, the VP, was their choice, and he won.
Humphrey had come to believe the war was unwinnable but was too loyal to LBJ (foolishly) to distance himself from his policies. The result of all these conflicting views was the Democratic National Convention, held in Chicago. It was an amazing, horrifying thing to watch on TV. Hardline anti-war people came there to destroy the convention; Mayor Daley was determined to crush them. One investigation later called it a "police riot," but both sides were to blame.
The effect of this nightmare, as it played out on the streets of Chicago and inside the convention hall, was to tilt the election to Nixon.
RFK probably had a pretty good chance to win the election if he had won the nomination, but that's just my guess, and who knows how long it would have taken him to get the troops out once he actually took office.
The Vietnam War really started the cultural chasm that remains with us to this day.
It used to be very hard to PROVE that the cancer was caused by the exposure to Agent Orange. Eventually, after enough Vietnam War veterans died from Agent Orange complications, the VA finally figured out that it didn't matter where the people had served in Vietnam, they WERE EXPOSED to Agent Orange. Now, there is a list of presumptive diseases that are associated with Agent Orange; if you served in Vietnam and you have ANY of the diseases on that presumptive list, the VA automatically decides that the Agent Orange exposure caused the disease. Same thing with some of the issues that Iraq war vets have. You should still try and be checked to see if you might have the hereditary effects of Agent Orange exposure. You might be able to get help from the VA, but talking to a Veteran's Advocate from a VSO ( Veteran's Service Organization ) such as the VFW, American Legion, DAV, or even the WWP should be helpful in finding out what you would need to do to get your Father's records amended, even though he has already passed away. That would make it easier for You if YOU neeed to make an Agent Orange exposure claim in the future. Hope this information is helpful.
My idiot uncle, or former uncle, served in Vietnam. Specifically, he served in the PX. He has a whole bevy of government benefits because of his "exposure" to agent orange.
He has no battle tales. No scars. No psychological trauma. Nope, his experience was a like a prolonged R&R vacation, yet he's raking in government benefits.
There is a lot of fraud in the "agent orange" program.
He has no battle tales. No scars. No psychological trauma. Nope, his experience was a like a prolonged R&R vacation, yet he's raking in government benefits.
There is a lot of fraud in the "agent orange" program.
Schrute said:
My dad served as an infantryman in Vietnam, 2 tours. He survived thankfully. He never said a single word about that place until I started talking about taking a commission upon graduation. The next weekend when I was home, he took me (and a bottle of Jim Beam) to the back porch. For the next 3 hours, he told me his story. I sat there in silence and watched my dad cry for the first time ever. He told me of the time where he went on a patrol with 12 men. Only 2 came back. My dad was (and is) tough as nails. But on that night, he laid his heart out there for me to see. He made me promise to never say a word about it to Mom. I'll never forget that night.
Great story. Thanks for sharing.
My Dad graduated HS in 70 and was not drafted. He mentioned once that he was just lucky, something about his lottery number.
My FIL was drafted after he graduated from TCU. Was two weeks from starting graduate school so it was quite the jolt.
He will talk some, but not much.
I've got this on my DVR. Can't wait to sit down and go through it.
My old man had similar feelings about never enlisting or getting drafted. He felt guilty and ashamed since he worked with so many that did go over there but that has changed as time has gone by and he's learned more about the BS that the government was spewing.JABQ04 said:
I think I've posted this before on something else about Vietnam, but my dad didn't serve. After seeing me join the Army and younger brother try to, but disqualified for medical reasons, he has said he wish he would have gone. He doesn't talk a lot about things back home, but he was basically a hippie and pretty sure a draft dodger. He had lots of friends go over and some who didn't come home. The few times we talk about it, I can tell he is generally hurt and maybe ashamed he didn't get drafted or enlist. Makes me sad to see him like this, but things could have been a lot different if he went.
On a lighter note, he used to surf in CA and would hang out with The Beach Boys. (Or so he claims)
I kept my father from being drafted in 1963. My mom's brother flunked out of tu in 1969 and received his draft notice soon afterwards. He was on forward firebases operating counter battery radar for mortars, 105's and 155's. Flew in Chinooks all over the country with his equipment van. Never went outside the wire.
My dad dropped out of college and enlisted in the Marines in 1966. He figured he would rather join the Marine Corps than be drafted into the Army. He made it through boot camp and then got sent to OCS, flight school and finally made it to Vietnam in 1971 off Yankee Station flying bombing missions over the north and participating in the mining of Haiphong Harbor. He lost a number of guys from his squadron and friends he knew from flight school and OCS.
He doesn't talk about it, at all. Neither does my mom (they got married right after flight school). Not that its something to discuss over coffee 40+ years later. What I know I learned from some of his buddies talking after dinners at our house when I was a kid or from his medal citations hidden in their basement and the cruise book from his combat tour. I think I remember more of those stories than anything else from when I was a kid.
As much as I have enjoyed the first two parts of the documentary from a historical viewpoint (the history, the politics involved, the beginning of MACV, etc...) the fascinating part to me is the veterans they keep going back to and their personal recollections and how none of them really talked about it when they got home and then never really brought it up again. And the visceral pain in their recollections for the camera. Amazing to me. Something so profound and life changing and they didn't talk about it, couldn't talk about it. Its given me some insight into my dad I did not have prior to watching.
He doesn't talk about it, at all. Neither does my mom (they got married right after flight school). Not that its something to discuss over coffee 40+ years later. What I know I learned from some of his buddies talking after dinners at our house when I was a kid or from his medal citations hidden in their basement and the cruise book from his combat tour. I think I remember more of those stories than anything else from when I was a kid.
As much as I have enjoyed the first two parts of the documentary from a historical viewpoint (the history, the politics involved, the beginning of MACV, etc...) the fascinating part to me is the veterans they keep going back to and their personal recollections and how none of them really talked about it when they got home and then never really brought it up again. And the visceral pain in their recollections for the camera. Amazing to me. Something so profound and life changing and they didn't talk about it, couldn't talk about it. Its given me some insight into my dad I did not have prior to watching.
The series is year specific; I'm sure as we get into the 70's we will hear the stories of returning homeQuote:
the fascinating part to me is the veterans they keep going back to and their personal recollections and how none of them really talked about it when they got home and then never really brought it up again. And the visceral pain in their recollections for the camera. .
I understand why they don't.rebag00 said:
the fascinating part to me is the veterans they keep going back to and their personal recollections and how none of them really talked about it when they got home and then never really brought it up again. And the visceral pain in their recollections for the camera. Amazing to me. Something so profound and life changing and they didn't talk about it, couldn't talk about it. Its given me some insight into my dad I did not have prior to watching.
I will say this up front so not to be misunderstood. I am not a soldier but I am a DOD/Army civilian employee. I spent many a day with young soldiers (they were all younger than me.) in the trucks driving around the Kunar, getting into tics, getting blown up, sustaining wounded and loosing friends. I personally lost the gunner in my truck on one mission. I was a part of everything that they went through, except I really wasn't "part" of them. I was very fortunate that they did accept me as one of their own. They kept me safe and I humped 240 ammo for them. I was ready as hell to get home at the end of my tour but about 30 to 45 days after getting home, I missed them terribly and could not wait to go back over.
With that being said, If you talk about your experience with "civilians" they just don't understand. Therefore you just don't waste the time. You are not ashamed. Your are not prideful. You just don't do it. It is between you and your "brothers" and it's no one else's business.
Just recently I talked to a doctor who was in country the same time I was. I was explaining why all of a sudden I had developed claustrophobia after being in Afghanistan. Anyone who has ever been trapped upside down in a destroyed MRAP would understand. My wife was with me. I was telling the Doc about the incident and the young E-4 getting killed in my truck. The rest of us in the truck were all injured and flown by Dust Off to an FST. She knew I had been injured but I have never told her all the details. She just sat there looking at me. She told the Doctor that she had never heard any of that. It shocked her. I never told her because I didn't want her to worry at the time and didn't want to alarm her when I got home. I will rarely talk about it with anyone, except other individuals that I find out that served.
I speak from my own experiences and do not claim to speak for others.
It seems like the reluctance of Vietnam veterans to speak about the war is different from those that fought in WW2. Personal accounts of WW2 seem much more common. I guess this probably has more to do with the perception of the conflict than anything else.
As a Vietnam veteran, I will say this, all so called documentaries may have a lot of facts left out to portray the opinion of the individual doing the work. Burns is well noted, but I guarantee it will have a slant. A politician's war, yes. It could have been ended within six months, but hands tied below the DMZ.
Any way, served 13 months as a Platoon Commander with India Company, 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment in 1968-1969. Then tour flying F4 Phantoms in 1972-73. Was also the Operations Officer for Task Force Delta out of an Expeditionary Base in Thailand.
I have plenty of hair raising, heart stopping, fast breathing events.
But will tell one about being on RR in Hawaii and was ask to do an interview with the BBC. I said No, but an Army Colonel said it was cleared and that I could do the interview. Well first question was what I thought of the new ROEs. I ask the commentator if he was referring to the "don't fire until fired upon" ROE. He said yes, and I told him straight up that it was a f---ing joke. We were just south of the DMZ, only good guys and bad guys. If I told my point fire team to only engage if fired on, they would be DEAD and I'll be damn if I was allowing that to happen. We know where the friendlies are, so anything we engage are the BAD GUYS, so SHOOT and we'll sort it out. Well, the BBC guy, gulped; the Colonel said interview terminated and I was off to have another BEER.
Political crap like that happened. Remember, only about 1 in 10 troops in Vietnam were actively involved in combat operations.
Semper Fi
Might add:
Both sons Marine Officers served in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Liberia
Father served 9 months in Europe with AEF WWI
Oldest brother wounded SPacific in 1942
Brother jumped with 82ndAB on D-Day, wounded twice.
Brother in law was Company Commander in Patton's 3rd Army, wounded and Captured at the Bulge.
Brother land after D-Day charmed life
Brother KIA at the Chosen Reservoir in Korea, 3 Dec 1950
Two other brothers in Korea at same time as the one above
Last brother served in the 11th Air Assault, 1st Air Cav, Commander was Hal Moore
Yep that's 8 brothers. We were lucky
Father in law was Navy flyer in WWII and Korea
Lots of stories told when the booze flowed.
Any way, served 13 months as a Platoon Commander with India Company, 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment in 1968-1969. Then tour flying F4 Phantoms in 1972-73. Was also the Operations Officer for Task Force Delta out of an Expeditionary Base in Thailand.
I have plenty of hair raising, heart stopping, fast breathing events.
But will tell one about being on RR in Hawaii and was ask to do an interview with the BBC. I said No, but an Army Colonel said it was cleared and that I could do the interview. Well first question was what I thought of the new ROEs. I ask the commentator if he was referring to the "don't fire until fired upon" ROE. He said yes, and I told him straight up that it was a f---ing joke. We were just south of the DMZ, only good guys and bad guys. If I told my point fire team to only engage if fired on, they would be DEAD and I'll be damn if I was allowing that to happen. We know where the friendlies are, so anything we engage are the BAD GUYS, so SHOOT and we'll sort it out. Well, the BBC guy, gulped; the Colonel said interview terminated and I was off to have another BEER.
Political crap like that happened. Remember, only about 1 in 10 troops in Vietnam were actively involved in combat operations.
Semper Fi
Might add:
Both sons Marine Officers served in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Liberia
Father served 9 months in Europe with AEF WWI
Oldest brother wounded SPacific in 1942
Brother jumped with 82ndAB on D-Day, wounded twice.
Brother in law was Company Commander in Patton's 3rd Army, wounded and Captured at the Bulge.
Brother land after D-Day charmed life
Brother KIA at the Chosen Reservoir in Korea, 3 Dec 1950
Two other brothers in Korea at same time as the one above
Last brother served in the 11th Air Assault, 1st Air Cav, Commander was Hal Moore
Yep that's 8 brothers. We were lucky
Father in law was Navy flyer in WWII and Korea
Lots of stories told when the booze flowed.
I have noticed the opposite. My father and three uncles fought in the Pacific, the father of a good friend of mine fought in Europe (and had some amazing things he had sent home), and seldom did any of them say anything about the war. It seems veterans serving during Vietnam and even more particularly veterans subsequent to Vietnam in my experience are much more likely to talk about their service years, attend events dedicated to where they fought, etc.RPag said:
It seems like the reluctance of Vietnam veterans to speak about the war is different from those that fought in WW2. Personal accounts of WW2 seem much more common. I guess this probably has more to do with the perception of the conflict than anything else.
I can remember as a kid we had a county fair (still do, been going on for over a 100 years) and each year they had parades and the like. The firemen would toss hard candies off the fire truck into the crowds lining the streets and I always struggled to get my share, lol. Once I asked my dad why he didn't come stand in line for the parade and get some candy and he said he did enough standing in the sun in the Marines to last him a lifetime.
Lots of interesting stories on this thread and I have enjoyed reading them. I was born in 1953 so grew up when all the Vietnam happenings were going on. I haven't watched every minute of this series, but I have seen parts of it and realize I have forgotten about our early involvement. I do remember the goings on when I was in high school because of guys ahead of me talking about deferments and then as they graduated some of them being drafted and going to Vietnam. Every night on the news the announcers were talking about the body count, seems as if we were doing more killing day in and day out according to the numbers. But, as we have seen, we were not above lying.
I was always a bit rebellious and have never had much respect for authority (still don't) unless it is earned in my eyes, not earned in the opinion of others. I didn't register with the selective service when I was supposed to, not that I wasn't going to do so eventually, but I wanted to be a butt about it. Finally, a few months past due, the rice farmer I was working for told me the draft board said that either I needed to come register or else. So I wore my muddy irrigation boots and went in and did the paperwork.
My lottery number was 12 and I got called in for my physical. This was very near the end of the draft. We took a bus into Houston for the physical and a few on that bus had already gotten the draft notice then left Houston for Fort Polk. Being from a small town, I wasn't aware that to avoid the draft all you needed was a letter from your family doctor saying that you had dizzy spells, or some other ailment. At the end of the day, I bet 80% in the line near me were disqualified for one reason or another, but I got the dreaded words "qualified for the draft, your draft board will be in touch with you within 90 days" (or some such statement). I have no idea if it was this way everywhere, or even this way a year earlier in Houston, but with things winding down, I think a whole lot of people were just going through the motions. My cousin's lottery number was 3 and he was told he was overweight by a few pounds and would be called back (seems like in 90 days or so) for another physical. He was working at a rubber plant lifting bales of rubber and got on a steak and potato diet and gained another 20 or 25 pounds.
A classmate of mine was headed over to Fort Polk on that day to start boot camp. A few weeks later he called and asked me and another classmate to come check out Fort Polk. I asked if he could really have visitors during boot camp (he wasn't above playing a trick on you). He said yes, it wasn't like on tv. It was in October, I remember the Cowboys were playing Green Bay and I really didn't want to go but figuring it was likely soon to be my own destination I went. We got inside, find his barracks, he meets us outside and we go in. What a mess, beds unmade, Penthouse magazines and comic books on the floor. I said this can't be like this every day and he said only on Sunday mornings.
As I remember, boot camp wasn't all that many weeks long, again I think because things were winding down, or perhaps I had some notion it would be longer. As fate would have it, the draft ended before I was called. My dad was very opposed to the war. I remember when they were talking about Lt. Calley and premeditated murder at My Lai, my dad stood up and said "you can bet every time I pulled the trigger on that BAR it was premeditated." Of course, the whole story had not come out yet and his circumstances were very different from Calley's. He sure didn't want me going to Vietnam. There was a time he thought I should join the Marines, a cousin was a recruiter, and back then, the branches of the service were often a starting point for those boys who really had no idea where there were going to start life. Dad had been awarded a Purple Heart in the Pacific, as had my grandfather in France, and I was hoping to break that trend. But as the mess in Vietnam continued to play out, he became very much against the war.
I was always a bit rebellious and have never had much respect for authority (still don't) unless it is earned in my eyes, not earned in the opinion of others. I didn't register with the selective service when I was supposed to, not that I wasn't going to do so eventually, but I wanted to be a butt about it. Finally, a few months past due, the rice farmer I was working for told me the draft board said that either I needed to come register or else. So I wore my muddy irrigation boots and went in and did the paperwork.
My lottery number was 12 and I got called in for my physical. This was very near the end of the draft. We took a bus into Houston for the physical and a few on that bus had already gotten the draft notice then left Houston for Fort Polk. Being from a small town, I wasn't aware that to avoid the draft all you needed was a letter from your family doctor saying that you had dizzy spells, or some other ailment. At the end of the day, I bet 80% in the line near me were disqualified for one reason or another, but I got the dreaded words "qualified for the draft, your draft board will be in touch with you within 90 days" (or some such statement). I have no idea if it was this way everywhere, or even this way a year earlier in Houston, but with things winding down, I think a whole lot of people were just going through the motions. My cousin's lottery number was 3 and he was told he was overweight by a few pounds and would be called back (seems like in 90 days or so) for another physical. He was working at a rubber plant lifting bales of rubber and got on a steak and potato diet and gained another 20 or 25 pounds.
A classmate of mine was headed over to Fort Polk on that day to start boot camp. A few weeks later he called and asked me and another classmate to come check out Fort Polk. I asked if he could really have visitors during boot camp (he wasn't above playing a trick on you). He said yes, it wasn't like on tv. It was in October, I remember the Cowboys were playing Green Bay and I really didn't want to go but figuring it was likely soon to be my own destination I went. We got inside, find his barracks, he meets us outside and we go in. What a mess, beds unmade, Penthouse magazines and comic books on the floor. I said this can't be like this every day and he said only on Sunday mornings.
As I remember, boot camp wasn't all that many weeks long, again I think because things were winding down, or perhaps I had some notion it would be longer. As fate would have it, the draft ended before I was called. My dad was very opposed to the war. I remember when they were talking about Lt. Calley and premeditated murder at My Lai, my dad stood up and said "you can bet every time I pulled the trigger on that BAR it was premeditated." Of course, the whole story had not come out yet and his circumstances were very different from Calley's. He sure didn't want me going to Vietnam. There was a time he thought I should join the Marines, a cousin was a recruiter, and back then, the branches of the service were often a starting point for those boys who really had no idea where there were going to start life. Dad had been awarded a Purple Heart in the Pacific, as had my grandfather in France, and I was hoping to break that trend. But as the mess in Vietnam continued to play out, he became very much against the war.
bufrilla said:
It could have been ended within six months, but hands tied below the DMZ..
How?
claym711 said:bufrilla said:
It could have been ended within six months, but hands tied below the DMZ..
How?
We tried free fire zones in Vietnam. It didn't go well. I'm not sure how no ROE would fix things.
Graduated A&M in January '66 (Class of '65 who took an extra semester). Reported for active duty at Fort Sill, OK, in April '66 as a 2nd Lt. in Field Artillery. Went to Airborne School at Fort Benning, then report to the 2-4FA (105mm howitzer), 9th Infantry Division at Fort Riley, Kansas. Deployed to Vietnam with the 9th ID in January '67.
Served briefly as Forward Observer in Vietnam, before being reassigned as Battery Executive Officer for the next six months. Reassigned to 7-8FA (8 inch / 175mm gun), 54th Artillery Group as Battery Fire Direction Officer for a couple of months, then reassigned as Battery Executive Officer for remainder of tour. Returned home in January '68 (missed '68 Tet Offensive by 10 days or so).
I'm a couple of episodes behind. Finished Episode 3 the other night ('64 - '65). Episodes 4 & 5 cover the period of my tour of duty, so I'm looking forward to those. Probably do one tonight and one tomorrow night.
I've read both "A Bright Shining Lie," Sheehan's book about John Paul Vann (mentioned in episode 2), and "We Were Soldiers once, and Young" about the Ia Drang Valley fight in November '65 (episode 3). Also read "They Marched into Sunlight," and excellent book by David Maraniss.
So far, I've been impressed with the series. It has covered a lot of details, particularly about how we actually ended up over there, with which I had limited familiarity. I'm looking forward to see how the rest of the war is handled. In my experience, too often histories of wars focus almost exclusively on the "big battles," and tend to ignore the day-to-day small unit ambush patrols, skirmishes, fire fights and "mini battles" that make up much a combat soldier's wartime experience. I'll be interested to see how Mr. Burns deals with this aspect of Vietnam.
Served briefly as Forward Observer in Vietnam, before being reassigned as Battery Executive Officer for the next six months. Reassigned to 7-8FA (8 inch / 175mm gun), 54th Artillery Group as Battery Fire Direction Officer for a couple of months, then reassigned as Battery Executive Officer for remainder of tour. Returned home in January '68 (missed '68 Tet Offensive by 10 days or so).
I'm a couple of episodes behind. Finished Episode 3 the other night ('64 - '65). Episodes 4 & 5 cover the period of my tour of duty, so I'm looking forward to those. Probably do one tonight and one tomorrow night.
I've read both "A Bright Shining Lie," Sheehan's book about John Paul Vann (mentioned in episode 2), and "We Were Soldiers once, and Young" about the Ia Drang Valley fight in November '65 (episode 3). Also read "They Marched into Sunlight," and excellent book by David Maraniss.
So far, I've been impressed with the series. It has covered a lot of details, particularly about how we actually ended up over there, with which I had limited familiarity. I'm looking forward to see how the rest of the war is handled. In my experience, too often histories of wars focus almost exclusively on the "big battles," and tend to ignore the day-to-day small unit ambush patrols, skirmishes, fire fights and "mini battles" that make up much a combat soldier's wartime experience. I'll be interested to see how Mr. Burns deals with this aspect of Vietnam.
What the heck did free fire zones have to do. Referring to not taking to the North. After Tet of '68, the VCDr. Watson said:claym711 said:bufrilla said:
It could have been ended within six months, but hands tied below the DMZ..
How?
We tried free fire zones in Vietnam. It didn't go well. I'm not sure how no ROE would fix things.
were in a serious hurt. The North Vietnamese in the South were in a serious hurt for man power and supplies.
We took a breather and let th North Vietnam retool.
Also did it several time for peace talks. They were given time to resupply their SAM missiles from Russia thru China. Guess what happened when they resumed bombing? Haiphong and Hanoi had the highest concentration of AAA and surface to air missiles ever.
Body count, never did I inflate our kills/wounded/prisoners. Take the gloves off and go North. Then a different outcome and less time. Norman made sure of that before going into Iraq, he didn't want another Vietnam.
GWBI stopped the total kill when the "highway of death" was constantly on CNN and people wanted it to end.
ROE, has it place, but not for killing your own people.
During Tet '69, my platoon had the missionary school at QuangTri. We were order to give the PF's half the perimeter. I refused, but had to back off. But we did put two rifle pits and an M-60 behind them (plus a fire team as a reaction force). They packed up and left.
After I started flying the F4, a pilot I was in the same section with was shot down in early August 1972(rescued), and again 10 days he was downed a second time. This time he was knocked off the jungle penetrator after pickup and was captured. He was carried MIA for like 17 years (actually executed when captured). As the Ops O of Task Force Delta I worked closely with CIA officer, retired Green Beret SgtMaj, name I will not mention, who told me on our first meeting that he had been executed and that an agent was at the scene, but the need to make sure he was not discovered the young Marine Captain was carried MIA.
After only 12 hours in country, I took my platoon into secure the the first LZ into the A SHAU Valley. Had to rappel in from a 100 plus feet and quickly rapping detcord around three huge trees and blowing them down so the second wave could land. We were told to expect heavy resistance, but only light occurred. Before end of the A Shau my M-60 SqLdr was awarded the Medal of Honor (posthumously) (LCpl Robert Prom).
Semper Fi
Neither did I. However, here's an interesting story about how it sometimes was unintentionally inflated: In the summer of 1967, we had to split our battery, and I took a couple of 105mm howitzers out into the field. One evening, just about dark, I got a call from an infantry Lt. who had just sprung an ambush and was receiving heavy return fire from all directions. We began firing artillery support. Then a couple of gunships showed up and fired all their rockets. When the dust settled, the infantry reported 10 VC bodies on the field. I dutifully reported the incident, including the 10 VC killed by combined arms (infantry, artillery and gunships). The next morning there was a short article in the Stars & Stripes about a firefight down in the delta in which 30 VC were killed. Turns out the Infantry reported the 10 VC KIA, and the Gunships also reported the 10 VC KIA. Somebody up the line added 10 +10 + 10 and reported 30 VC killed.Quote:
Body count, never did I inflate our kills/wounded/prisoners.
Taking ground troops north meant a massive escalation across the world. Every administration involved in Vietnam had their eyes on the Soviets and Chinese. And even if you destroy the conventional weapons of the North Vietnamese, they just go back to the tactics that ousted the French. "Taking the gloves off" has been tried again and again throughout military history. It has consistently failed badly. It failed the Soviets in Afghanistan, it failed the Germans and Japanese in WWII. And those are recent examples. Vietnam was a quagmire. Tactics couldn't change the strategic and operational issues that made the war almost impossible to win.
Watson,Dr. Watson said:
Taking ground troops north meant a massive escalation across the world. Every administration involved in Vietnam had their eyes on the Soviets and Chinese. And even if you destroy the conventional weapons of the North Vietnamese, they just go back to the tactics that ousted the French. "Taking the gloves off" has been tried again and again throughout military history. It has consistently failed badly. It failed the Soviets in Afghanistan, it failed the Germans and Japanese in WWII. And those are recent examples. Vietnam was a quagmire. Tactics couldn't change the strategic and operational issues that made the war almost impossible to win.
We did not close down their supply route thru Laos/Cambodia. Tried to use air power to do it. They just waited it out. We finally mined Haiphong harbor (under Nixon), heck our allies were supplying the North. Many a ship flying the Union Jack and other European countries in and out weekly. Every cease fire during peace negotiations allowed the resupply, especially SAMS (took a hell of a toll on the B-52's, of course the AF could have varied their routes.
Now for history, you named a lot of wars where the aggressor went hundreds, even thousands of miles into their enemies vast territory.
By the way, we should never have allowed France back into IndoChina. That was the problem. We'd have never been there.
Lastly, not another country in SEAsia fell under communist control after Vietnam.
They'll be arguing about this forever. Politicians, they listen to the $$$, in todays world. Country comes 2nd to their pockets and their reelection.
Semper Fi
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