Sul Ross: Complicated

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Nonregdrummer09
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11:23p, 6/14/20
AG
Not to overtake the other thread, but I feel this paper was useful:

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A11449434-b6c7-4025-a3b4-f4363988d91f&fbclid=IwAR0kJpBI4ieA_BUXbbY_pYkoJL9ffEqQ9c90p8fpaHXMQhor9j8HOWHcUJY#pageNum=1

It hold about 295 pages worth of sources and information of what we know of Sully's life and beliefs. I think in the introduction of the paper the writer sums it up pretty well:

Quote:
The known record is not adequate to make confident conclusions about Ross' feelings about and actions concerning race and ethnicity. Even less is known about his views on gender or class. Anyone who examines these references hoping to find either a demon or an angel will be disappointed. Life is complicated, and Sul Ross led a very full life

You can search for keywords if you are looking for a specific topic.

Point is, history is messy, 10 out of 12 of our first Presidents owned slaves at some point in their lives. Sully never owned slaves, although his father owned at least 2 or 3 at some point in his life, it is speculated in the paper that these were inherited from his mother (Sully's grandmother) and the rest had been freed upon her death.

There is plenty of sources of Sullivan advancing black public education, offering awards for the arrests of people who had murdered black people while he was governor.

I'm not going to get into all of it, but point being this isn't really about Sullivan Ross the person, this is about a statue, and here is the question being asked:

Does the statue represent the confederacy or white supremacy (to be clear, Ross was never a member of the Ku Klux Klan, as I've seen that allegation thrown around), simply because Ross fought with and eventually lead a Texas Regiment in the Confederacy when he was in his 20's?

I would argue this is a very broad over simplification, and that the statue was never installed for that purpose.

But take a look at this information, decide for yourself.
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GumboMaverick
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11:26p, 6/14/20
Not bored enough to care
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vander54
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In reply to GumboMaverick • 11:29p, 6/14/20
S
GumboMaverick said:
Not bored enough to care


Yet you post
World's worst proofreader
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Nonregdrummer09
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12:19a, 6/15/20
AG
Although this is an interesting tidbit, just something I didn't know:

Quote:
The first touchdown by an Aggie football team is scored on Thanksgiving Day, November 22, 1894, by N. Valdez from Hidalgo, Mxico, Class of 1897, in a 140 victory over Galveston


There is some pretty interesting early Aggie history in here outside of specifically Sully.
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BQAG02
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12:20a, 6/15/20
AG
The only question people need to ask is "Did we erect the statue to honor the deeds that were done in behalf of the confederacy - and to racism, by extension according to some peoples beliefs?"

The answer is simply no, so it should not be removed.
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Azariah
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12:43a, 6/15/20
AG
I will believe in the sincerity of people who want to take down statues when they are at least morally consistent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery

I have seen no one ask to remove the Washington monument, rename the state, rename the 163,036 people with the last name "Washington", and change the name of our nation's capital.
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Kramer
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1:03a, 6/15/20
AG
It was Ross that encouraged the enrollment of females which led to the allowance of female faculty family members attending (the twin sisters in the class of 1903).
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rootube
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1:22a, 6/15/20
AG
You know what's not complicated? Staying home and not acting like a fool in front of the academic building.
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rootube
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In reply to BQAG02 • 1:52a, 6/15/20
AG
I don't think that's the only question you need to ask. A better question is if you take up arms against your own country and side with pro slavery does that outweigh your contribution as an effective college administrator? For many people the answer is yes.
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69huslinone
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3:38a, 6/15/20
AG
Sorry. My Family came to this Country in 1632. Had a couple of State Senators in Maryland, One of which donated the land to Carroll county for a courthouse and a jail. Some of them owned slaves. Family moved to South Carolina near Greenville and had a town named after them. One fought in the Revolution, at Kings Mountain. One of his desendants was elected Lt. Governor of South Carolina in 1905. His brother moved to Birmingham and was elected Sheriff and donated a jail. My Great Grandfather moved on to Tennessee with his eleven children. There were 22 links in that family chain.

I cannot say that the beliefs were in each generation, but by and large they were respectable men and fair minded. As a post WW2 boomer, I am a social conservative follower of Walter Williams, a noted Black Economist. To take down Governor Ross statue strikes me as grossly unfair as his legacy is one who promoted learning, specifically black learning. The protestors also have mauled the monument to the Massachusett Black Infantry celebrated in the movie Glory. One can be critical without empowering those who seek power by destroying history.








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Nonregdrummer09
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In reply to rootube • 6:21a, 6/15/20
AG
rootube said:
I don't think that's the only question you need to ask. A better question is if you take up arms against your own country and side with pro slavery does that outweigh your contribution as an effective college administrator? For many people the answer is yes.


Or, did he join the Texas regiment at the request of his older brother? There is a sample of speech he gave where he talks about the reason he joined. You also have to think of the mindset of the time in that to him, Texas was his country. He lived in the Republic of Texas.
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45-70Ag
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6:43a, 6/15/20
AG
He died in the 1890's, people really think they'll find his thoughts on gender and class? That garbage is a decent phenomenon
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sleepybeagle
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7:29a, 6/15/20
AG
Every generation thinks themself more enlightened and moral than the generations that csme before.
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AGHouston11
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7:42a, 6/15/20
AG
This is a football forum why is this a political thread?
It's a rhetorical question.
Close down college sports and let the athletes earn real scholarships and then get real jobs.
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hunter2012
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In reply to sleepybeagle • 8:14a, 6/15/20
AG
sleepybeagle said:
Every generation thinks themself more enlightened and moral than the generations that csme before.
...and yet they want to burn books and rewrite history. We really are getting dumber.
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farwellrob
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8:38a, 6/15/20
AG
I'm all for changing the plaque on Sully's statue. I get that the wording might not be perfect.

I like the idea of putting up a statue of Matthew Gaines next to him in honor of a person that was passionate about equal education for all.

The fact is that A&M does have a history of racism and we should be more proactive than some other schools. But I'm hoping cooler heads will prevail and we can save Sully.
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Carnwellag2
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In reply to rootube • 8:41a, 6/15/20
rootube said:
I don't think that's the only question you need to ask. A better question is if you take up arms against your own country and side with pro slavery does that outweigh your contribution as an effective college administrator? For many people the answer is yes.
You have to put yourself in the Time. what would you have done if your state and neighbors decided to leave the union?

was it a mistake = yes
did you do great things after for POC and Texas A&M System specifically = YES

If you take it down - what are the next demands?

anyone who had a relative that lived in the south in the 1860s - they need to be cancelled to?

you can only be honored for great achievements if you have an unblemished past? Washington, Jefferson, MLK, Lincoln, George Floyd?


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33
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In reply to farwellrob • 8:57a, 6/15/20
farwellro said:

The fact is that A&M does have a history of racism and we should be more proactive than some other schools.

This is true of both UT and A&M. We should all acknowledge and accept it and be part of leading both Universities into the future.
"So long as an opinion is strongly rooted in the feelings, it gains rather than loses in stability by having a preponderating weight of argument against it."

- John Stuart Mill, 1869
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RAB91
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9:01a, 6/15/20
Mond is doing his best to alienate a large portion of the fans over this issue. I was really hoping that college sports would be a political-free zone, but it is not looking likely.
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Nonregdrummer09
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In reply to RAB91 • 9:10a, 6/15/20
AG
RAB91 said:
Mond is doing his best to alienate a large portion of the fans over this issue. I was really hoping that college sports would be a political-free zone, but it is not looking likely.


I think Mond is going about this carefully and thoughtfully. I would argue he's actually showing great poise. He's a current student too, he deserves a say as much as any of us.
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45-70Ag
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9:11a, 6/15/20
AG
Every college older than 60 years old has a history of racism. A history of it is fine to acknowledge but what's happening today should carry more weight. But that's not good enough for a good portion of people.
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dragmagpuff
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9:15a, 6/15/20
AG
I think its clear that the Jefferson Davis statue at UT was a prime example of a statue that should be taken down.
  • No relation to the University
  • Claim to fame as President of the Confederacy
  • Built in 1933 to honor confederates and paid for by a former confederate

Compare that to the Sul Ross statue:
  • One of, if not the, most important people in University history
  • Primarily known as a Texas Governor and A&M president, not a confederate.
  • Honored for his contributions to A&M and service as Governor, not a confederate
  • Paid for by the state in 1917


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Macarthur
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In reply to BQAG02 • 9:29a, 6/15/20
BQAG02 said:
The only question people need to ask is "Did we erect the statue to honor the deeds that were done in behalf of the confederacy - and to racism, by extension according to some peoples beliefs?"

The answer is simply no, so it should not be removed.

Agree completely.

I am 100% for taking down Confed statues. Frankly, I have always found it kinda weird that we have them at all.

But Sully is being honored for what he did for the university.
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1st Generation Ag
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9:34a, 6/15/20
The statue wasn't erected because of Sul Ross's beliefs. It was erected because of his leadership. Before he became president, the A&M College of Texas was doing very poorly. It was on the verge of being shut down or absorbed into the t.u. system. t.u. at the time was the darling of the state government because the Republic of Texas always wanted its own university, whereas the AMC was a land grant college forced on them by the Federal government. Sul Ross's leadership totally reversed A&M's decline and made it into a strong state school that was too important and influential to shut down. The statue stands because A&M wouldn't exist without him.

I got my Master's degree at Maryland. When I was there the football stadium was named after Curley Byrd, the godfather-like university president who did a lot to increase the prestige and quality of the university. He was also a racist who tried to keep UMD as a school only for white people. The stadium is now named Maryland Stadium as a visible repudiation of Byrd's beliefs and actions. The president who conferred my degree and renamed the stadium, Wallace Loh, is an east Asian immigrant. Clearly, Byrd lost his vision of an all-white University of Maryland. He and his ilk were defeated in our society. Why isn't that enough? Rejecting his beliefs - and Sul Ross's - doesn't have to mean dropping the men and their names down the memory hole.
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Randyag15
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9:57a, 6/15/20
AG
There is a map of all confederate statues done by the southern poverty law center. https://www.splcenter.org/20190201/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy#findings
College station is not listed, meaning the statue is not considered a confederate statue. I think there are other things to look at if we are discussing tearing it down besides just his affiliation with the confederacy.
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amercer
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In reply to Nonregdrummer09 • 10:00a, 6/15/20
AG
Nonregdrummer09 said:
RAB91 said:
Mond is doing his best to alienate a large portion of the fans over this issue. I was really hoping that college sports would be a political-free zone, but it is not looking likely.


I think Mond is going about this carefully and thoughtfully. I would argue he's actually showing great poise. He's a current student too, he deserves a say as much as any of us.


What did he say?
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Jbob04
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In reply to Nonregdrummer09 • 10:09a, 6/15/20
AG
Nonregdrummer09 said:
RAB91 said:
Mond is doing his best to alienate a large portion of the fans over this issue. I was really hoping that college sports would be a political-free zone, but it is not looking likely.


I think Mond is going about this carefully and thoughtfully. I would argue he's actually showing great poise. He's a current student too, he deserves a say as much as any of us.

Calling people racist isn't very thoughtful.
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agnerd
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10:09a, 6/15/20
AG
I had an outside dog when I was little and I eat beef and chicken on a regular basis. I stopped riding in a car seat when I was 5, and my parents first car only had a lap seat belt with no air bags. I got spanked a few times when I was little, too. I own an internal combustion vehicle and lawnmower and don't recycle #6 plastic because the local company doesn't take it. I'm sure in 150 years, somebody will be offended by my life choices.
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JustisWalkert
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10:13a, 6/15/20
AG
As I have stated before in another thread, the statue of Sul Ross portrays him wearing a suit--not a uniform. That simple fact speaks directly to why he is being honored.
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ironmanag
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10:18a, 6/15/20
AG
Ross changed his views after the war. He became an advocate for African Americans in both education and medicine.

People who make mistakes can change. If you don't believe that then why bother in the first place.
Aggie Class of '97 and '16, Proud father of Aggie classes of '25 and '29
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TyperWoods
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11:29a, 6/15/20
Ross was well respected in his culture, and his statue at A&M is not due to his being a confederate soldier.

Removing his statue would be ridiculous, and something that I don't doubt might happen

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AGHouston11
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In reply to Nonregdrummer09 • 12:41p, 6/15/20
AG
Nonregdrummer09 said:
RAB91 said:
Mond is doing his best to alienate a large portion of the fans over this issue. I was really hoping that college sports would be a political-free zone, but it is not looking likely.


I think Mond is going about this carefully and thoughtfully. I would argue he's actually showing great poise. He's a current student too, he deserves a say as much as any of us.


What he said was incoherent at best.

So now everyone deserves their say? Good to know because it seems like only one side of issues is allowed.
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vander54
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In reply to Nonregdrummer09 • 12:52p, 6/15/20
S
Nonregdrummer09 said:
RAB91 said:
Mond is doing his best to alienate a large portion of the fans over this issue. I was really hoping that college sports would be a political-free zone, but it is not looking likely.


I think Mond is going about this carefully and thoughtfully. I would argue he's actually showing great poise. He's a current student too, he deserves a say as much as any of us.


I disagree that he was careful and thoughtful.
World's worst proofreader
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Wabs
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In reply to ironmanag • 12:54p, 6/15/20
AG
ironmanag said:
Ross changed his views after the war. He became an advocate for African Americans in both education and medicine.

People who make mistakes can change. If you don't believe that then why bother in the first place.
If anything, this should be a reason TO KEEP and HONOR Sul Ross. He changed his views and became an advocate for African Americans. But.......no.......he was a confederate General so eff him and anything else he did in his life.
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Ragnar Danneskjoldd
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1:11p, 6/15/20
AG
I'm sure it will come down because this racial identity tribal cancer has infected every part of society, but I'm not going to spend time worrying about malicious arguments made in bad faith to accomplish it. The mob cant be reasoned with.Its religious fervor at this point.
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