***** Official USMNT vs Canada CONCACAF Nations LeagueThread ****

7,103 Views | 104 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by carl spacklers hat
tysker
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The more I think about it, Bradley's play last night was indicative of the whole situation. He was fine - some good and some bad - but generally slow meandering play without obvious purpose. Bradley himself wasnt a problem as much as his selection was a problem. Berhalter mentioned he wanted the players to change the point of attack by moving the ball side to side faster and that has been a Bradley strength (hitting those cross field diagonal balls to wingers) but he did it once or maybe twice last night. Replacing guys like Roldan and Zardes is easy but Bradley is such a major cog in the system who is he replaced by? Ream, Yuell, Adams,McKennie? I'm not sure any of those is a 'better' answer.

Oh and a lock of adjustment in the second half was crazy. It was like watching a Billy Kennedy coached basketball team play decent but never adjust to the opponents adjustments. I guess a lack of noticeable second half adjustments is becoming a Berhalter coaching trend
jeffk
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chjoak said:

jeffk said:

I'm typically really slow to bail on coaches - I like to give them a chance to implement their system fully. That said, I'm out on Berhalter. Zero reason to think he gets this thing turned around.


My $0.02... a MNT manager should not be implementing his system. A MNT manager should be implementing a system that best fits the best players in his pool. This is a different beast than a pro club. I club manager can buy the players that fit his scheme but a NT manager has to deal with the players in his pool. Specifically for a pool like the US you are limited with the quality of players at certain positions. If a manager is incapable of scheming around those deficiencies, he has no business being a NT manager.


I get what you're saying and I agree to a point, but every coach has a "system of play" they coach to. They have experience coaching guys in it and they've been successful in it and that's their area of expertise. (System of play isn't formation, btw. That's just one aspect of it.) You're never going to find a coach who doesn't have "their system" at this level.

What separates the good coaches from the great ones is flexibility inside their system, imo. Can they look at their talent pool and identify guys who fill certain roles and then create or modify roles to fit the talented guys who don't necessarily easily slip into a preestablished role. Klinsmann wasn't flexible in this way and apparently Berhalter isn't either. It may be the most important thing for a national team coach.
Ag by Vows
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I recognize that Pulisic was not playing well, but you simply do not sub out you best and most talented player in the 60th minute because he's having an off night. The whole team was having an off night, and he remains the guy who has the highest likelihood of creating some moment that could change the game. It's particularly unhelpful considering what's going on at Chelsea.

I know there were reports of him suffering from "flu like symptoms," but his reaction to getting pulled wasn't of someone who's being pulled because he's sick.
Mathguy64
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And ideally that system of play would be integrated vertically from U17 to U20 to U23 to the senior squad. At least within the ability of the players in the pools. I just don't see that happening here either.

I'm going to say it. The Berhalter hire was a mistake and the sooner Ernie Stewart figures that out and fixes it the better. They wasted a developmental year getting Berhalter and are wasting even more time now. And you can't get that time back. For all the talk about fixing things they didn't fix anything.
jeffk
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JK attempted some of that, but yeah, it's a big ask for multiple levels of national teams.
fig96
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That's fair, and I think it's the lack of flexibility that folks are taking issue with.

Totally understand that a coach will come in with a system he wants to run, but you've got to look at your available talent and adapt rather than try to jam square pegs into round holes (which is pretty much what you're saying, just worth restating). Particularly when you've got limited time with these players to implement your system (unlike a club team).
chjoak
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jeffk said:

chjoak said:

jeffk said:

I'm typically really slow to bail on coaches - I like to give them a chance to implement their system fully. That said, I'm out on Berhalter. Zero reason to think he gets this thing turned around.


My $0.02... a MNT manager should not be implementing his system. A MNT manager should be implementing a system that best fits the best players in his pool. This is a different beast than a pro club. I club manager can buy the players that fit his scheme but a NT manager has to deal with the players in his pool. Specifically for a pool like the US you are limited with the quality of players at certain positions. If a manager is incapable of scheming around those deficiencies, he has no business being a NT manager.


I get what you're saying and I agree to a point, but every coach has a "system of play" they coach to. They have experience coaching guys in it and they've been successful in it and that's their area of expertise. (System of play isn't formation, btw. That's just one aspect of it.) You're never going to find a coach who doesn't have "their system" at this level.

What separates the good coaches from the great ones is flexibility inside their system, imo. Can they look at their talent pool and identify guys who fill certain roles and then create or modify roles to fit the talented guys who don't necessarily easily slip into a preestablished role. Klinsmann wasn't flexible in this way and apparently Berhalter isn't either. It may be the most important thing for a national team coach.
You and I are saying the same thing with a little different wording. My point is that a coach who is not flexible has no business as a NT coach because you don't have the luxury of buying your ideal squad. I equate it to a high school football coach that changes his offense/defense every couple of years based on the players he has available. There is a coach in my district that switched to an old school triple option this season because he has no true QB on his roster. A NT coach has to be that guy. He can mold certain players to fit roles he needs/wants but to be truly successful he has to learn to work with what he has.
jeffk
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We're both geniuses obviously.
Mathguy64
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I just don't even see a system here. Are they a counter team? Are they a high press in your face team? Tiki taka? Defensive 100%? About all I can see is they have tried at times to play out of the back and build but frankly they don't have a GK or CBs able to play at their feet well enough to do it. If that's the system the players are definitely not suited to play it.
fig96
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We build from the back or something or at least kinda try that then give it to Pulisic. Duh.

mathguy86 said:

About all I can see is they have tried at times to play out of the back and build but frankly they don't have a GK or CBs able to play at their feet well enough to do it.
Nick Rimando was born 10 years too late for this team.
mrmill3218
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I think the truth, unfortunately, is just that there really is no clear cut system. I just don't think berhalter really knows what he's doing or really understands the game much. A lot of what he says and his formations and what he tries to implement is just incoherent. I just think that guy thinks he's guardiola when he really just needs to humble himself and keep the whole thing simple.
Expert Analysis
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PatAg said:

DeangeloVickers said:

How can you say Sargent played well...he barely touched the ball
I know its easy to just listen to what the announcers say (what they decided before the game started). He was personally involved in the build up to most of the chances we created. Good hold up play, and one-two touch passing to combine with others. The tactics are just fundamentally flawed when combined with player selection. When your midfield and defense are just overrun and outplayed, there isn't much the forward can do especially in a single striker formation.
most chances? I do not remember many but the best one was the other 2 forwards and Pulisic hits it directly at the keeper in the middle of the goal

Twellman kept getting after Sargent and others for playing to deep, mentioned in this thread as well. It was true, but when your midfield cannot hold the ball and your defense cannot clear the ball or pass worth a damn, the forwards need to come back to help. Go rewatch the first goal. Sargent presses the Canadian D, Twellman states his satisfaction with finally doing so. Bradley gets it, turns it over, Ream cannot clear it, 0-1... This also happens to be 2 minutes after Pulisic was subbed out...
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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two minutes to go - Bradley and fullbacks at midfield passing the ball back and forth- while forwards waiting for balls that NEVER come !
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
Mathguy64
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mrmill3218 said:

I think the truth, unfortunately, is just that there really is no clear cut system. I just don't think berhalter really knows what he's doing or really understands the game much. A lot of what he says and his formations and what he tries to implement is just incoherent. I just think that guy thinks he's guardiola when he really just needs to humble himself and keep the whole thing simple.
In the end, that's sound advice for any national team coach. You aren't coaching players at that level. You don't see them often enough to do that. You need a system that is simplistic enough that whatever players you have available at that particular break can drop into and run.

To me the system should revolve around a defensive orientation and counter attack. We have really good athletes including our GKs and really good team speed. Mostly we always have had those things. We don't have the best foot skills to play at feet and work the ball up. So sit back, defend and counter.

I guess we should have hired Fat Sam after all
mrmill3218
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That, and you have to actually select your best players.
chjoak
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I think we put too much emphasis on hiring someone that "knows" US soccer/players. Even Jurgen was living in the US and familiar (mostly) with what we had. He was just too rigid and intense for the federation. He wanted to overhaul the whole damn thing (and was right) and the power that be could not handle that. We desperately need an experienced manager that is not familiar with the pool that can come in and evaluate what we have and the best way to be successful.

I've said for some time that I think our best option is to run a 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 formation. As a country we have always had trouble developing quality LB/RB but seem to have little issue at CB. We've also had issues developing quality ST but we have speed to burn on the wing both at WF and B2B outside mids. 3-5-2 / 3-4-3 would play to our CB strength while setting up nicely as a counter attacking side. It's gonna take us 10+ years plus a good bit of change to our youth setup before we will be able to truly compete with Brazil, Germany, Spain, France, etc... but a disciplined defense with effective counter attacking may move us up the rankings and get us a win over the big boys now and again.
Ag by Vows
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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:

two minutes to go - Bradley and fullbacks at midfield passing the ball back and forth- while forwards waiting for balls that NEVER come !


There was a moment earlier in the second half when Bradley has the ball about 10 yards into Canada's half of the field and on the right-center side. Yedlin is calling for the ball on the right wing with a lot of green space in front of him. To get him the ball, Bradley needed to pass it over just one defender. It's a pass that we see made every weekend by professional players. Rather than send the ball to Yedlin to push up the wing, he dumps it back to Long.

Then, he doubles down on his chicken **** play. When Long gets the ball, a nice space opens up in front of Bradley. Long looks for a pass in front of him up the field. All Bradley needs to do is start to move to the open space and Long can deliver the ball to push the attack. What does Bradley do? He stands still, within one yard of the Canadian player, makes not attempt at a run or to find open space. Long's only choice at that point is to pass it further back to Ream.

It was a short sequence that just epitomized everything that drives me nuts about Bradley and the style the USMNT has been playing.
ScottishFire
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I remember the media and federation condemning Klinsmann for scouring Europe to find Americans abroad. "We habe plenty of good, homegrown players in the MLS"

Now Arena and Berhalter have showed us how stupid it is to play these low league losers.
And, we don't even have to find dual nationals at this pointKlinsmann started a movement where young Americans are going abroad to compete. See our last youth World Cup under Tab Ramos; a bunch of youngsters that are playing in Europe, and they made it to the Semis.

It drives me insane to see guys like Roldan, Zaedes, and Trapp getting call ups
PatAg
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fig96 said:

That's fair, and I think it's the lack of flexibility that folks are taking issue with.

Totally understand that a coach will come in with a system he wants to run, but you've got to look at your available talent and adapt rather than try to jam square pegs into round holes (which is pretty much what you're saying, just worth restating). Particularly when you've got limited time with these players to implement your system (unlike a club team).
The major thing is, you don't "come in with a system you want to run" that only works if you have the same level of access to players that you do at the club level. I would guess he could still run a version of what he wants to accomplish if he simplifies it a bit. Everything we do is to slow and tentative, which to me means the players as a whole don't really understand what gregg wants.

Translate that to watching our youth teams play, and beat, top level international teams. (this is just the past 3-4 years or so, where the commitment to youth development is starting to show dividends.)
PatAg
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ScottishFire said:

I remember the media and federation condemning Klinsmann for scouring Europe to find Americans abroad. "We habe plenty of good, homegrown players in the MLS"

Now Arena and Berhalter have showed us how stupid it is to play these low league losers.
And, we don't even have to find dual nationals at this pointKlinsmann started a movement where young Americans are going abroad to compete. See our last youth World Cup under Tab Ramos; a bunch of youngsters that are playing in Europe, and they made it to the Semis.

It drives me insane to see guys like Roldan, Zaedes, and Trapp getting call ups
The thing that is wrong with your concept, is its not choosing players in MLS that is wrong. He is choosing the WRONG players in MLS.
tysker
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In roughly 15 years we've gone from Arena and Bradley's defend deep and counter fast tactics, to Klinnsman's 'express yourself' and have fun tactics, to Berhalter's rube goldberg machine-like tactics. Its no wonder the USMNT has no identity.

Canada won last night with lesser players playing the old Arena/Bradley US-style of defending in waves and countering with speed.
PatAg
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tysker said:

In roughly 15 years we've gone from Arena and Bradley's defend deep and counter fast tactics, to Klinnsman's 'express yourself' and have fun tactics, to Berhalter's rube goldberg machine-like tactics. Its no wonder the USMNT has no identity.

Canada won last night with lesser players playing the old Arena/Bradley US-style of defending in waves and countering with speed.

Their top 4 players were potentially better than our top 4 players, though. I do agree with everything else you said.
AgGrad99
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Quote:

Berhalter's rube goldberg machine-like tactics
That is an absolutely perfect description
fig96
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PatAg said:

fig96 said:

That's fair, and I think it's the lack of flexibility that folks are taking issue with.

Totally understand that a coach will come in with a system he wants to run, but you've got to look at your available talent and adapt rather than try to jam square pegs into round holes (which is pretty much what you're saying, just worth restating). Particularly when you've got limited time with these players to implement your system (unlike a club team).
The major thing is, you don't "come in with a system you want to run" that only works if you have the same level of access to players that you do at the club level. I would guess he could still run a version of what he wants to accomplish if he simplifies it a bit. Everything we do is to slow and tentative, which to me means the players as a whole don't really understand what gregg wants.

Translate that to watching our youth teams play, and beat, top level international teams. (this is just the past 3-4 years or so, where the commitment to youth development is starting to show dividends.)
Totally with you, alluded to that with the "limited time" comment.

I mean, we've been in this "system" for almost a year and we look worse than when we started. It's either time for Berhalter to go back to the drawing board or to find someone else to steer this ship.

I'd prefer the latter at this point but I don't think that's happening anytime soon.
An Ag in CO
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Quote:

Wrong thread.
An Ag in CO
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Quote:

Still, key man off the field and 1-0 down with half an hour to play? That is a situation where a team might look to its coach to conjure an inspired substitution or a tactical masterstroke. But the response to Alphonso Davies' 63rd minute goal was a string of sideways passes, possession without purpose, as the US chased the game with as much cutting edge as a preschooler's pair of plastic safety scissors.
ScottishFire
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PatAg said:

ScottishFire said:

I remember the media and federation condemning Klinsmann for scouring Europe to find Americans abroad. "We habe plenty of good, homegrown players in the MLS"

Now Arena and Berhalter have showed us how stupid it is to play these low league losers.
And, we don't even have to find dual nationals at this pointKlinsmann started a movement where young Americans are going abroad to compete. See our last youth World Cup under Tab Ramos; a bunch of youngsters that are playing in Europe, and they made it to the Semis.

It drives me insane to see guys like Roldan, Zaedes, and Trapp getting call ups
The thing that is wrong with your concept, is its not choosing players in MLS that is wrong. He is choosing the WRONG players in MLS.
I can't agree with you here. The right coach could choose the actual, best MLS players (Americans of course) to compliment our current squad, and we would still lose out on the international stage. The only MLS players with true, National Team ability are the ones that are young and destined for Europe anyways.

You put too much faith in our socialist, closed tier league.
It's simply become a development league for the rejects of South America and the best of Centra America (excluding Mexico)
Joe Cole
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It makes me sad that we don't have a soccer culture in this country and likely never will. I was listening to a US soccer guy on radio that spent time in Iceland and was describing how they do things with their system. We will just never be that way, at least in our lifetimes.

A lot of kids develop in these other countries when they are playing with their friends with no coach around, those kinds of things are common in other places. One of the points he has was that if 4-5 of the kids played basketball, the two leagues would coordinate so that there wasn't a conflict, LMAO trying to picture that here!

The list of why it doesn't work is a mile long. Sadly, there are a lot of people in this country that would rather see their son play special teams in high school football vs highly rated college soccer player.

PatAg
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ScottishFire said:

PatAg said:

ScottishFire said:

I remember the media and federation condemning Klinsmann for scouring Europe to find Americans abroad. "We habe plenty of good, homegrown players in the MLS"

Now Arena and Berhalter have showed us how stupid it is to play these low league losers.
And, we don't even have to find dual nationals at this pointKlinsmann started a movement where young Americans are going abroad to compete. See our last youth World Cup under Tab Ramos; a bunch of youngsters that are playing in Europe, and they made it to the Semis.

It drives me insane to see guys like Roldan, Zaedes, and Trapp getting call ups
The thing that is wrong with your concept, is its not choosing players in MLS that is wrong. He is choosing the WRONG players in MLS.
I can't agree with you here. The right coach could choose the actual, best MLS players (Americans of course) to compliment our current squad, and we would still lose out on the international stage. The only MLS players with true, National Team ability are the ones that are young and destined for Europe anyways.

You put too much faith in our socialist, closed tier league.
It's simply become a development league for the rejects of South America and the best of Centra America (excluding Mexico)
That's who I'm referring to as who we should choose from MLS.
Joe Cole
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I thought this was a great summary:

"Best sum up :

I'm not trying to bash the US men's teams performance. Honestly I watched about ten minutes of the match. However that was enough for me to see the same old issues rearing their heads. Many people are talking about the coach's system, and which players would work better than other in that system. However tactics and personnel are the symptoms of a much deeper much more systemic problem. We lack a soccer culture here that prioritizes the elements of the game that would inherently breed quality.

It's the same issue that our culture faces in almost every industry. We find solutions to symptoms instead of looking at the deeper root cause and so we never come close to solving the real problem.

The soccer culture here in America has zero idea of how to produce world class quality because we don't really appreciate quality. We see players like Andres Iniesta, Xavi Hernandez, Sergio Busquets, Sadio Mane, Sergio Aguero, Kevin De Bruyne, Arjen Robben just to name a few, and do not realize that for them to make the game look easy, the requisite level of mastery is one that has been produced over time in a certain type of environment.

In our American pride we have turned a blind eye to all the systems of development that are bonafide, tested, tried and true. The elements of touch, technique and finesse are relegated to "technical trainers" most of whom are just trying to make a buck, and the clubs where kids spend the majority of their time focus on results from a wins and losses point of view. Kid's families pay to play and in our culture if someone pays money they believe they are entitled to results of their own liking. This is leads to purely subjective experiences as most parents have never played the game and have no rubric for success other than is my kid having fun or is my kid winning, never mind is my kid learning...some of you think that because your kid can smash a ball as it rolls back to him without even thinking about taking a first touch, smashing it 30 yards floating in the air and score on a short keeper that hasn't yet learned how to judge a high ball that you are having success.

THIS IS THE PROBLEM! In America we are far too comfortable skating around on the surface of things that we miss the depth of this game. It's called the beautiful game for a reason. We should reflect on what that means.

This game is first mental. It takes a special kind of mind to be able to process the movements of 22 players as a symphony as opposed to chaos. However most clubs are throwing academy age players into 9 v 9 formats before they understand how 3,4,and 5 players can relate to one another. The game is one of finesse and subtlety, it takes years of training to master the refinement of technique that it takes to play the game beautifully. However most clubs do not focus on technique whereas in France and other European countries 75% of training sessions are focused on technical mastery until the age of 14! But go ahead a keep thinking play practice play will solve the problem. Lastly this game takes a lucidity of mind to be able to problem solve on the fly. Pattern recognition. This is more about tactics. We do not have the understanding of the game that allows us to program kids to recognize what a team's/individual's pattern of play is and then find a way to counteract it.

Mentality, technique, tactical fluidity. None of these concepts will make a difference until we look at the game differently. This isn't American football where we celebrate yardage and a 1st down is a saving grace...this is a game where going all the way backwards pulls the other team out and then going sideways exposes space to be exploited much later in the development of the attack. Yet most parents cheer when their child mindlessly smashes the ball forward to no one. Youth soccer for the most part is kickball with no bases to run.

I could go on for days giving you reasons that we are currently experiencing the same disappointing performances from our National team. Side note, this is not only in reference to the men's team. The women's team will suffer the same losses over time because there is no system of development to consistently churn out top level talent. Spain, France, Sweden and Japan all have legitimate systems of development that will soon overshadow the bravado and athleticism of the American women.

All of these problems come from a culture of instant gratification. We think we should see the results we want now and not later. Like an impatient child we throw tantrums when we don't get our way, never realizing that if we applied a bit of process and patience that overtime we would be experiencing a completely different outcome.

If this post offends you, please don't @ me. I've played in five foreign countries upon graduating high school( France, Romania, Jamaica, Sweden and Malta) and have seen and experienced first hand the difference of system and mentality that each of these countries has to offer. Each of which has a level of true football that the American culture pales in comparison to."
PatAg
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Just another person who isn't actually up to date on their appraisal of our youth systems. He's not entirely wrong or anything, but imo he is focusing on the wrong things.
jeffk
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Yeah, those things he says don't exist in the US very much do.
Joe Cole
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one thing I agree with is that we definitely push the kids to playing 7v7, 9v9, 11v11 before they are ready because it's all about money and more kids more money
aggiesoccer#1fan
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In order to win this group (and qualify for the semifinals of the Nations League), the USMNT must:

(a) defeat BOTH Canada (in Orlando) and Cuba (in Havana)

AND

(b) at least one of those must be by 2 goals or more

Before Tuesday night, that would've sounded pretty simple despite there being no margin for error. But even now, failing to accomplish this against this competition would be a massive failure. The pressure is clearly on.
Mathguy64
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aggiesoccer#1fan said:

In order to win this group (and qualify for the semifinals of the Nations League), the USMNT must:

(a) defeat BOTH Canada (in Orlando) and Cuba (in Havana)

AND

(b) at least one of those must be by 2 goals or more

Before Tuesday night, that would've sounded pretty simple despite there being no margin for error. But even now, failing to accomplish this against this competition would be a massive failure. The pressure is clearly on.
I will go on record right now and say that if Berhalter cant accomplish that task (especially the GD deal given how bad Cuba is) then he should not bother getting back on the team bus. He should get Mark Johnson'ed right on the spot.
 
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