Ussf is dumb

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Kampfers
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In reply to aggiebird02 • 7:53a, 9/16/21
AG
aggiephoenix02 said:
gambochaman said:
This is freaking ridiculous and pathetic

Now equal pay is not equal pay….WTF IS IT THAT THEY WANT


they want to have their cake and eat it too….they want to
Keep their cushy salaried and benefits deal and at the same time take mens world cup money too (WHICH THEY DIDNT EARN IN THE FIRST PLACE)
Yep, you summed it up perfectly.

Women are driven by emotions, not by logic. I'd imagine there are some on the USWNT that are filled with nothing except "yeah, BUT..." when confronted on their absurd demands with reason and facts.

They have completely lost me as a fan. I actually want them to lose every game they play from now on...


Holy hell. The USWNT is in the wrong on this issue. I've been banging that drum since the first day they announced their plans to sue. That being said, in one sentence you've painted every woman on earth with a single, misogynistic brushstroke.

I think that tells me every bit as much about you as it this whole proceeding has told us about them.

And frankly I'd rather associate with a bunch of self interested *******s who are trying to manipulate public opinion to enrich themselves (in some circles that's just called good business) than with someone whose views on women were better left in the 18th century.
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akm91
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In reply to TheMasterplan • 8:22a, 9/16/21
AG
TheMasterplan said:
I wish FIFA did a better job of determining World Cup revenue. As of right now, I believe it's unknown what the difference is. The numbers quoted awhile back ended up being wrong from what I've read recently.

In the WC revenue, all qualifying revenue should be included as well.
The difference is TV $$$. Most countries don't care about women's team and there's no appetite for TV rights to be sold as broadly compared to men's WC. It's not a secret.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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Bunk Moreland
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In reply to Kampfers • 8:23a, 9/16/21
Kampfers said:
aggiephoenix02 said:
gambochaman said:
This is freaking ridiculous and pathetic

Now equal pay is not equal pay….WTF IS IT THAT THEY WANT


they want to have their cake and eat it too….they want to
Keep their cushy salaried and benefits deal and at the same time take mens world cup money too (WHICH THEY DIDNT EARN IN THE FIRST PLACE)
Yep, you summed it up perfectly.

Women are driven by emotions, not by logic. I'd imagine there are some on the USWNT that are filled with nothing except "yeah, BUT..." when confronted on their absurd demands with reason and facts.

They have completely lost me as a fan. I actually want them to lose every game they play from now on...


Holy hell. The USWNT is in the wrong on this issue. I've been banging that drum since the first day they announced their plans to sue. That being said, in one sentence you've painted every woman on earth with a single, misogynistic brushstroke.

I think that tells me every bit as much about you as it this whole proceeding has told us about them.

And frankly I'd rather associate with a bunch of self interested *******s who are trying to manipulate public opinion to enrich themselves (in some circles that's just called good business) than with someone whose views on women were better left in the 18th century.

Spoken like an emotionally unstable woman...ammirite men?!

Argh Argh Argh!
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bigjag19
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8:58a, 9/16/21
AG
The College Station Hilton and Times Square Hilton managers should be paid the exact same right? Job description is the same.

Of course there are vastly different competitors to deal with.
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jeffk
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9:02a, 9/16/21
AG
Some of y'all are telling on yourselves.
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aggiebird02
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In reply to Kampfers • 9:06a, 9/16/21
Kampfers said:
aggiephoenix02 said:
gambochaman said:
This is freaking ridiculous and pathetic

Now equal pay is not equal pay….WTF IS IT THAT THEY WANT


they want to have their cake and eat it too….they want to
Keep their cushy salaried and benefits deal and at the same time take mens world cup money too (WHICH THEY DIDNT EARN IN THE FIRST PLACE)
Yep, you summed it up perfectly.

Women are driven by emotions, not by logic. I'd imagine there are some on the USWNT that are filled with nothing except "yeah, BUT..." when confronted on their absurd demands with reason and facts.

They have completely lost me as a fan. I actually want them to lose every game they play from now on...


Holy hell. The USWNT is in the wrong on this issue. I've been banging that drum since the first day they announced their plans to sue. That being said, in one sentence you've painted every woman on earth with a single, misogynistic brushstroke.

I think that tells me every bit as much about you as it this whole proceeding has told us about them.

And frankly I'd rather associate with a bunch of self interested *******s who are trying to manipulate public opinion to enrich themselves (in some circles that's just called good business) than with someone whose views on women were better left in the 18th century.
Hahaha... okay.
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jeffk
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In reply to jeffk • 9:23a, 9/16/21
AG
jeffk said:
A lot of arguments on this bring up revenue, but is the USSF obliged to consider the differences there when it comes to compensation? Basically, is the Fed a for-profit agency or not?


I'll answer my own question here - the USSF is a tax-exempt non-profit entity. Seems like a lot of folks think they should be trying to maximize revenue for the purpose of turning some sort of profit, when that's not necessarily the case. In my reading of the organization's intended purpose, they should be trying to maximize revenue to further grow and improve the game of soccer in the United States. So there's definitely going to be some inequality present as different avenues of growth or outreach methods are attempted. Personally, I don't think using revenue generated is an appropriate way for a non-profit to determine compensation for employees. That's not to say that the USWNT players are in the right or that the Fed is in the right here - I largely think both groups are just talking past each other in the "court of public opinion." But the state of soccer in the US isn't the same for the men's and women's game here in 2021... nor is it the same as it was when the NWSL was founded back in 2012 with the help of USSF.
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deadbq03
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In reply to jeffk • 10:31a, 9/16/21
AG
While you're right about USSF - the broader impact of market forces is this:

Men make astronomically more in club soccer than women do.

USMNT players could walk away from the team and still be making plenty of money. Even the MLS guys make enough to not only live well right now, but build a nest egg for the future (if they're smart). So you have to pay them well enough to make it worth their while. There's a significant risk that they could get injured in USMNT duty and that would negatively impact their club careers… especially considering CONCACAF ****housing and poor refereeing. Toss in the added stress of travel - especially for the guys playing in Europe - and there's a lot of reasons why a player might entertain the thought of not participating. So you have to pay them well enough to not entertain that thought.

The USWNT is the exact opposite of everything I just wrote. USWNT is their cash cow. They wouldn't dream of leaving, which is why they've worked so hard to lock in their spots on the team.
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TRM
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In reply to jeffk • 10:39a, 9/16/21
AG
So persons A & B both work for non-profits. Person A raises $20M for the organization and person B raises $5M, you don't think person A deserves a larger salary then person B?
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ThunderCougarFalconBird
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In reply to deadbq03 • 10:43a, 9/16/21
AG
Pretty much nailed it with this post. USMNT players do not care what they get paid relative to the women. For them, it is a simple risk assessment. Is the cash I get (plus potential work permit for some players and additional exposure) worth risking injury and no longer having a starting spot on the roster at RB Leipzig (or wherever)?
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Rudyjax
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10:45a, 9/16/21
AG
This whole thing is so dumb.

Offer the women exactly what the men get.

They ain't winning a World Cup again so it's moot.

Oh, you don't want that deal?

Then go play for Russia.
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HowdyTexasAggies
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In reply to wangus12 • 10:47a, 9/16/21
AG
wangus12 said:
They'd be doomed. In the 5 or so times I've watched the USWNT live, the #1 ticket seller is young girls club teams. That works easily with cheap tickets. I don't see parents dropping the same cash if tickets are priced the same as the men. Hell I think the reason it seems the men's games don't sell out is due to ticket costs


It should be done just to prove a point, of course US soccer already slapped them silly with the equal contact offer.

WNT has horrible legal representation and/or whoever run their account acts like a childish idiot.
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jeffk
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In reply to TRM • 10:55a, 9/16/21
AG
TRM said:
So persons A & B both work for non-profits. Person A raises $20M for the organization and person B raises $5M, you don't think person A deserves a larger salary then person B?


Quoting so I can keep track of what I'm responding to.

So I was overly-simplistic initially. There's obviously different types of jobs at non-profits. If your job is fund-raising and that's how compensation is calculated, then yeah, there's going to be differences in take-home pay based on performance. "National Team Player" isn't a fund-raising employment position in my mind, so I don't think compensation should depend on ticket sales or merchandising or other things like that. But that's just me.
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jeffk
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In reply to deadbq03 • 10:57a, 9/16/21
AG
deadbq03 said:
While you're right about USSF - the broader impact of market forces is this:

Men make astronomically more in club soccer than women do.

USMNT players could walk away from the team and still be making plenty of money. Even the MLS guys make enough to not only live well right now, but build a nest egg for the future (if they're smart). So you have to pay them well enough to make it worth their while. There's a significant risk that they could get injured in USMNT duty and that would negatively impact their club careers… especially considering CONCACAF ****housing and poor refereeing. Toss in the added stress of travel - especially for the guys playing in Europe - and there's a lot of reasons why a player might entertain the thought of not participating. So you have to pay them well enough to not entertain that thought.

The USWNT is the exact opposite of everything I just wrote. USWNT is their cash cow. They wouldn't dream of leaving, which is why they've worked so hard to lock in their spots on the team.


I'm honestly sort of shocked we haven't seen a high-profile player decline playing for their national team for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. I think it's mainly patriotism, societal pressure, and tradition that keeps them from doing so. I don't know that compensation (past a certain point relative to club wages) is what's keeping them from saying No to a call-up.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to jeffk • 10:59a, 9/16/21
AG
Not "high profile" but a very good national team player, Nagbe declined all call ups.
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akm91
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10:59a, 9/16/21
AG
The USWNT intentionally conflated different components of their total compensation package (salary, bonus and aditional benefits) into the "Equal Pay" mantra. They try to gloss over the fact that THEY NEGOTIATED a different pay structure than the USMNT and are now suing because of their decision.

As someone posted earlier, they did have legitimate complaint (and already addressed by USSF) concerning the travel, per diem and accomodations being subpar in comparison to the USMNT.

Salary -
USWNT 22 gets guaranteed salary from USSF of $100K; 11 of those gets additional $67.5K (Tier 1), $62.5K for Tier 2 players; Annual increase of $2.5K for the 22 players
USMNT - No guaranteed salary

Bonus -
USMNT - $68.7K for making WC roster, $9.3K (minimum; depending on opponent ranking) per win, $5K for loss
USWNT - $4K per call up for 8 or more caps in addition to win bonus; $3K per call up for less than 8 caps in addition to win bonus

Additional Benefits
USMNT - None
USWNT - receives medical and dental insurance, paid child-care assistance, paid pregnancy and parental leave, severance benefits

"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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greg.w.h
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In reply to akm91 • 11:01a, 9/16/21
AG
Who is source of funds for all of that for men and for women?
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jeffk
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In reply to Rudyjax • 11:02a, 9/16/21
AG
Yeah, Nagbe has declined several call-ups over the past couple of years (he has 20+ caps for the USMNT). I think he had a falling-out with some senior USSF guys (maybe Berhalter?) and has no interest in riding the bench for the Stars and Stripes. IDK.
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greg.w.h
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11:11a, 9/16/21
AG
https://cdn.ussoccer.com/-/media/project/ussf/governance/2021/fy20-united-states-soccer-federation-audited-financial-statements.ashx?la=en-us&rev=b76931d52e3e4d4db1e000fd218ea1d2&hash=5E1EF6D67A0C48CC7F2036540132FFDD

Game revenue line item comparison prior to 2019:

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/soccer/ny-uswnt-outgenerates-usmnt-game-revenue-20190618-vpccjc5si5ejrlm3xkri2mt4yu-story.html
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akm91
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In reply to greg.w.h • 11:12a, 9/16/21
AG
greg.w.h said:
Who is source of funds for all of that for men and for women?
It's most likely from the TV rights, ticket sales and sponsorship deals. There may be other revenue streams but those are the big 3.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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akm91
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In reply to greg.w.h • 11:16a, 9/16/21
AG
The USWNT also has bunch of matches such as She Believes Cup and post WC tour matches that the USMNT do not hold. It would be interesting to see what is the rev per match as opposed to total rev. That's disingenious way to measure.

Let's not forget, the attractiveness to the public, in terms of ticket sales, of the men's matches are impacted by FIFA windows, relationship between USMNT and the players club and also players situation at their club. The USWNT do not have those outside factors impacting the availability of their star players.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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greg.w.h
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In reply to akm91 • 11:59a, 9/16/21
AG
I would suggest total match revenue is a helpful number. I haven't discovered a breakdown on the other revenue categories like the one for match revenue. But it's worth noting that women being primarily employed by (ignoring personal appearance and other revenues for non-sport activities) the USWNT and seeing a significant portion of revenues they generate being distributed to them is equality. Most of us are a cost factor in our day jobs and we show up as a portion of cost of service or cost of goods sold.

Their pay from an American corporation perspective is probably upper 25% for Tier 1. But if the USWNT / USSF were pocketing huge profits and redistributing them to executives or other sports I could easily understand the complaint. I don't know if that is happening but the fiscal reports don't suggest it. They DO carry investments that are roughly equivalent to one year of spending and 2020 obviously was a challenging year for sports. So o wouldn't try to detect a trend there.

If the women are suggesting they are all in and men aren't, that is a bit disingenuous. The USSF does help manage the NWSL so there isn't exactly an arms length negotiation arrangement. This article does offer insight into the stated goals especially regarding power.

https://qz.com/2059598/the-us-womens-soccer-team-was-offered-the-same-contract-as-the-men/
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akm91
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In reply to greg.w.h • 12:36p, 9/16/21
AG
Quote:
I would suggest total match revenue is a helpful number.

I disagree:

USWNT
2016 - 21 home matches
2017 - 13 home matches
2018 - 18 home matches
2019 - 15 home matches
67 Total Home Matches
USWNT Home Matches 2016-2019

USMNT
2016 - 14 home matches
2017 - 13 home matches
2018 - 7 home matches
2019 - 16 home matches
50 Total Home Matches
USMNT Home Matches 2016-2019

The 17 extra home matches during the window will definitely skew the total ticket revenue comparison.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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tysker
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12:52p, 9/16/21
AG
And lets be serious, the USMNT draws fans of their opponents to the point of USMNT playing a de facto away game in cities like Houston or LA. Do the opponents of the USWNT draw fans?
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deadbq03
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8:08a, 9/17/21
AG
I think the revenue comparison between USMNT and USWNT is a moot point.

It's about alternatives. If you don't have an alternative to your current job - you don't have leverage to ask for a raise. That's the simple fact. Even in my anecdote on page one, if women are stuck in an organization that doesn't value them - it's highly likely that they can find different workplaces that will value them.

There's literally no alternative for the USWNT. It's the biggest and best thing these women can do. Winning World Cups and Olympic Gold are their only real prizes in the whole sport. Even down to their friendlies, their games are more entertaining and draw bigger crowds than NWSL matches.

On the men's side it couldn't be further the opposite. Short of winning the World Cup, there's nothing Pulisic can do with the USMNT that will top what he's done with Chelsea, and even then it's a pretty close call. Same thing goes for Tyler Adams if Leipzig ever win the Bundesliga or even the domestic DFB Pokal. Even winning the MLS is most certainly a bigger accomplishment objectively than the USMNT throttling a bunch of minnows and then beating Mexico to win the Gold Cup (even though the Gold Cup gets more media attention).

And as I mentioned before, salaries outside of the USWNT are abysmal in women's soccer. I'll say it again: there is literally no alternative for USWNT players. They have no choice but to stay on the USWNT. They would have zero leverage in negotiations if it weren't for misguided political and media pressure (which is again why I had my dumb libtard rants on page 1... as someone who thinks there's still work to be done on equality in the workplace, it drives me crazy that folks think this issue is remotely on the same page as those issues).

If someone wants to support USWNT efforts to get paid more, they need to attend NWSL matches - plain and simple. If the NWSL were a viable, prestigious alternative, then we could start dissecting USWNT revenues to see what may or may not be fair compensation. Until then, it's a moot point... they have no alternative options.
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texagbeliever
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10:03a, 9/17/21
Yesterday USWNT played Paraguay. It was so unimportant nobody even commented on it.

I do think that USMNT players like Pulisic or Reyna benefit from marketing sponsorships from being on the team. Makes them more locally famous in the largest market. Other MLS or lower level European club players benefit from potential exposure.
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akm91
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In reply to deadbq03 • 10:03a, 9/17/21
AG
Quote:
And as I mentioned before, salaries outside of the USWNT are abysmal in women's soccer. I'll say it again: there is literally no alternative for USWNT players.
That's not necessarily true. Sam Kerr at Chelsea is making money pretty comparable to the US stars. The commonality between her and the other stars making that level of money is that they all star for their national teams.

The underlying problem for the women's game is the money is all centered around (TV rights and sponsorship) WC and Olympis and not at the league levels which means unless you're a star for your national team, you're not going to really make money.

Perfect illustration is that Patrick Bamford for Leeds is making 2.5M (top 5 for his team). He's a star player for his team and has only 1 cap for England.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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PatAg
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11:47a, 9/17/21
AG
The women are also making this push specifically after the Men missed the World Cup. They know (or whoever is advising them knows) that they can mislead everyone with the metrics they can generate from that 4 year cycle.
It would be really interesting to see someone compare this timeframe to the current one after the men qualify and perform at the world cup (assuming that happens)
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Aston94
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In reply to PatAg • 1:34p, 9/17/21
AG
PatAg said:
The women are also making this push specifically after the Men missed the World Cup. They know (or whoever is advising them knows) that they can mislead everyone with the metrics they can generate from that 4 year cycle.
It would be really interesting to see someone compare this timeframe to the current one after the men qualify and perform at the world cup (assuming that happens)

You better not jinx us!!!!!
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greg.w.h
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In reply to akm91 • 1:56p, 9/17/21
AG
akm91 said:
Quote:
I would suggest total match revenue is a helpful number.

I disagree:

USWNT
2016 - 21 home matches
2017 - 13 home matches
2018 - 18 home matches
2019 - 15 home matches
67 Total Home Matches
USWNT Home Matches 2016-2019

USMNT
2016 - 14 home matches
2017 - 13 home matches
2018 - 7 home matches
2019 - 16 home matches
50 Total Home Matches
USMNT Home Matches 2016-2019

The 17 extra home matches during the window will definitely skew the total ticket revenue comparison.
I understand the point you are making regarding per game revenue. But that doesn't chamber the totals that WSJ reported that is referred to in the links. The women make marginally more than the men per annum in match receipts. It is more but 50.2% to 49.7% isn't much difference for more games.

I do not know per national team breakdowns on other revenue nor on expenses. And we specifically only know basic structure without overhead costs for the total pay package for each national team,

The women's team may have those details. If so they may be public record already or soon. I'm using online information provided by the various sources which could be redacted.
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greg.w.h
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In reply to PatAg • 2:01p, 9/17/21
AG
PatAg said:
The women are also making this push specifically after the Men missed the World Cup. They know (or whoever is advising them knows) that they can mislead everyone with the metrics they can generate from that 4 year cycle.
It would be really interesting to see someone compare this timeframe to the current one after the men qualify and perform at the world cup (assuming that happens)
Their stated goal is power. The outcome they likely are pushing for is use the USWNT's political standing in the US to force FIFA to EQUALIZE (look…a soccer word with very clear meaning) prize payments for the WC and WWC.

It's worth noting women were the ones who created professional tennis destroying shamateurism and creating the Open Era and lobbying for equal prize money. Improved prize money led to improved investment and training and helped shift eyeballs. If that were to be the goal-to copy tennis-that could work. But using a federal lawsuit clearly was a bust. And who truly has standing to make FIFA change? Not USSF…
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PatAg
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In reply to Aston94 • 3:04p, 9/17/21
AG
Aston94 said:
PatAg said:
The women are also making this push specifically after the Men missed the World Cup. They know (or whoever is advising them knows) that they can mislead everyone with the metrics they can generate from that 4 year cycle.
It would be really interesting to see someone compare this timeframe to the current one after the men qualify and perform at the world cup (assuming that happens)

You better not jinx us!!!!!
Jinx is denied due to the bolded statement. Not my first rodeo
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jeffk
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In reply to PatAg • 3:07p, 9/17/21
AG
It'll be your last if you freakin jinx us.
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Aston94
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In reply to jeffk • 6:51p, 9/17/21
AG
jeffk said:
It'll be your last if you freakin jinx us.


Yeah, what he said!!!
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aggiebird02
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In reply to Aston94 • 7:15p, 9/17/21
Aston94 said:
jeffk said:
It'll be your last if you freakin jinx us.


Yeah, what he said!!!
There is no such thing as jinx...
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