Official Shortage in Houston

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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 10:01a, 11/3/21
AG
Quote:
Law 12 is pretty clear (and I say that laughing because it's been a hot mess on handling). A deflection off your own body including feet to your hand or arm is generally not handling provided your arms are in a natural position. You just cannot score off that.


You didn't know they removed that from the law. It's ok. This is a safe space.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 10:05a, 11/3/21
AG
Mathguy64 said:
Kevin the 3-legged dog said:
Curious to see your thoughts on them removing that section of law 12.


Balls hit hands and arms all the time. Everyone needs to get over it. Don't put your hands in the air. Don't take advantage of your arm's/hand's position. Otherwise get over it and keep playing soccer.

The ball it's a hand and everyone is screaming "handball!!" staring at me like I'm an idiot for not blowing my whistle. GET. OVER. IT. It's going to happen again in like 3 minutes.


It clearly states that " Not every touch of a player's hand/arm with the ball is an offence." in yellow and underlined."

That being said, has it ever occurred to you that people yell handball even if they know it's not one?
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jeffk
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10:07a, 11/3/21
AG
Oh, I see we're doing the extremely pedantic Rudy thing again this morning?
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Rudyjax
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In reply to jeffk • 10:16a, 11/3/21
AG
jeffk said:
Oh, I see we're doing the extremely pedantic Rudy thing again this morning?


That may have come off a little harsher than I meant. It was definitely tongue in cheek. So my apologies.

He definitely is correct about when there is a handball or not, but the laws do not clearly state what he said. That's all.
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jeffk
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In reply to Rudyjax • 1:39p, 11/3/21
AG
Generally there's some lag time between changes made to IFAB laws and those same changes being implemented in local leagues and competitions. Especially if the changes are made while a league is in-season.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to jeffk • 2:45p, 11/3/21
AG
jeffk said:
Generally there's some lag time between changes made to IFAB laws and those same changes being implemented in local leagues and competitions. Especially if the changes are made while a league is in-season.
That makes perfect sense. He said the laws clearly indicate something I was curious to know what he knew differently.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to Rudyjax • 3:09p, 11/3/21
AG
Kevin the 3-legged dog said:
jeffk said:
Generally there's some lag time between changes made to IFAB laws and those same changes being implemented in local leagues and competitions. Especially if the changes are made while a league is in-season.
That makes perfect sense. He said the laws clearly indicate something I was curious to know what he knew differently.


Law changes happen each July 1. Your IFAB app looks like it's not up to date.

And while the law is technical it really does boil down to "balls hit hands all the time. Get over it. When hands and arms are in natural positions it's generally not handling including a deflection off yourself. If your Hands are out of your silhouette or natural position all bets are off. Caveat: you cannot score off a ball hitting your hands even if accidental"
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 3:59p, 11/3/21
AG
Mathguy64 said:
Kevin the 3-legged dog said:
jeffk said:
Generally there's some lag time between changes made to IFAB laws and those same changes being implemented in local leagues and competitions. Especially if the changes are made while a league is in-season.
That makes perfect sense. He said the laws clearly indicate something I was curious to know what he knew differently.


Law changes happen each July 1. Your IFAB app looks like it's not up to date.

And while the law is technical it really does boil down to "balls hit hands all the time. Get over it. When hands and arms are in natural positions it's generally not handling including a deflection off yourself. If your Hands are out of your silhouette or natural position all bets are off. Caveat: you cannot score off a ball hitting your hands even if accidental"
I've double checked my Ap and laws from the IFAB website, and I'm correct.

And I'm not even arguing with you about what is or isn't a handball. I'm stating that the law no longer clearly states anything about deflections.

From the 21/22 laws:
https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/fouls-and-misconduct/#direct-free-kick

The 20/21 laws:
https://www.theifab.com/laws/2020-21/fouls-and-misconduct/#direct-free-kick

I would copy and paste, but I already screenshot from the ap and the website and you still didn't believe me.



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Mathguy64
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In reply to Rudyjax • 4:40p, 11/3/21
AG
"...except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm:
  • directly from the players own head or body (including the foot)
  • directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
  • If the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger..."

Thats a deflection. AKA an unintentional play. Its also an intentional play. You meant to play it with your foot and shanked it right into your hand.

To paraphrase: "Balls hit hands and arms all the time. Keep them down. Everybody get over it."
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 4:43p, 11/3/21
AG
Mathguy64 said:
"...except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm:
  • directly from the players own head or body (including the foot)
  • directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
  • If the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger..."

Thats a deflection. AKA an unintentional play. Its also an intentional play. You meant to play it with your foot and shanked it right into your hand.

To paraphrase: "Balls hit hands and arms all the time. Keep them down. Everybody get over it."
For the Nth time, They removed that from the law.


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Mathguy64
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In reply to Rudyjax • 4:56p, 11/3/21
AG
Removed what? The word "deflection"? You cannot be serious. Its literally what is built into the Law. It allows for accidents and intentional acts. A deflection from another player or from yourself Its not handling unless it creates for you a direct scoring opportunity or unless your arms and hand are unnatural position. Knee the ball and shank it into your hand at your side? I could care less. Head the ball accidently into your hand at your side? Go for it. Head the ball into your hand above your head? tweet tweet.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 5:07p, 11/3/21
AG

Quote:
"...except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm:
  • directly from the players own head or body (including the foot)
  • directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
  • If the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger..."
Find this in the Laws of the Game.

https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/fouls-and-misconduct/#introduction
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Mathguy64
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5:11p, 11/3/21
AG
Do you really think taking that language I quoted from 2020-21 out into 2021-22 made that go away? They tried to make it even clearer by only saying what is an offense. The removed it to try and make it even clearer. Everything else not listed isnt one.

If your arm is in a natural position it doesnt matter how it hit you. Intentional. Unintentional. From your teammate. An opponent. Or yourself. Its not handling.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 5:27p, 11/3/21
AG
Mathguy64 said:
Do you really think taking that language I quoted from 2020-21 out into 2021-22 made that go away? They tried to make it even clearer by only saying what is an offense. The removed it to try and make it even clearer. Everything else not listed isnt one.

If your arm is in a natural position it doesnt matter how it hit you. Intentional. Unintentional. From your teammate. An opponent. Or yourself. Its not handling.
I never said that it made it go away. I said they removed that from the laws of the game. You're moving the goal posts. This all started when a "linesman" quoted the law and gave someone a URL. I said, I hope it was before July 1 as they removed it from the laws. You said that it clearly states it in the laws of the game.

I know what a handball is. So do you.
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jeffk
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6:25p, 11/3/21
AG
Real bang up job ruining the thread, Rudy.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to jeffk • 7:10p, 11/3/21
AG
jeffk said:
Real bang up job ruining the thread, Rudy.


Yeah. My bad. My first argument was pretty pedantic but he corrected me when I was right. And kept doing it. But it's not that big of a deal. So, I apologize.

Staff, if you want to clean it up I wouldn't be hurt.
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jessexy
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8:51p, 11/3/21
AG
I was a Grade 5 State referee for 11 years and a Grade 6 for 2 years before that. I did a ton of national and pro level games over my career but I can't stand officiating soccer now. I haven't been USSF-registered for a couple of years and don't really plan to go back. I do still register for HS but I only really do about 10 nights per season just to qualify for playoff games. I do college still, but I choose my games carefully.

The way I see it, things are going to get much worse. The local leagues where I'm at just raised the fees considerably for the youth game. I think they're trying to attract more referees by hiking the pay, but that's not the solution. That's exacerbating the problem, IMO. Now, the parents, coaches, clubs, etc are going to demand a higher quality when it's the same ole referees they've been seeing for the last 10 years. And those higher expectations are going to lead to worse behaviors on the sidelines. And that's going to cause more referees to quit the game faster than they are now.

The leagues and coaches don't realize that they're mostly the cause of the referee shortage, but it's not because of behavior and conduct. It's because there are so many damn leagues popping up all over the place. Soccer has expanded more and more every year because someone else decides A) that they can make money by running their own league or B) that they can do it better than the ****ty league they participate in now. But they're increasing the number of games every weekend with the same referee pool. Alot of the teams are playing in 2 or 3 league so these younger players have 3-5 games on any weekend. It's pretty terrible, if you ask me.

The solution is to actually assign FEWER referees to games. I think they should assign only a center referee and require each team to provide an AR for every game. That AR should be a volunteer, but it won't ever happen that way. It should be a youth player on the bench, but it won't happen. It would be great to have a different parent volunteer every game, but that won't happen either. And it doesn't really need to be a volunteer. Pay the club linesman the normal AR fee for every game and let that person (player or parent) walk away with $50 after the game. One of a few things will result from this, but primarily we'll 1) gain some understanding of job, 2) quiet some parents and players down after they experience it themselves, and 3) cultivate a new pool of referee allies that maybe won't get certified but will at least know what it's like with the flag in their hand.

Just my $.02 after the other fools tried their best to kill the thread arguing about who's more knowledgeable about a rule that's going to change again next year. Sounded like handbags just like when players come together.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to jessexy • 10:28p, 11/3/21
AG
I will say I umpired baseball in college and will referee soccer when my daughter is done playing.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to jessexy • 7:41p, 11/4/21
AG
If you mean a club linesman the way they are defined, no thanks. All that does is make the Referee do it solo. Ok a small sided game I would rather be solo that have a club linesman. In fact small sided games should all be solo IMHO. But on a full field? Someone just standing in the corner holding a flag up if the ball goes out of play does nothing for me. Hard pass on a club line.

Now if you mean a linesman from the club by all means yes. The local club here is actively pushing one player and one parent from each team to take the entry course. I would even be fine with a modified course that teaches them nothing but offside and basics of balls in and out of play. Call it something clever like "grade 9 referee" . I would be fine not even making them certified. Just teach them how to be an AR.

I would also allow for duals in tournaments and preseason events where having 3 is almost a unicorn.

Of course that will never happen. USSF is so busy tightening the screws on uncertified referees and all the wonderful new training they are producing to create high quality professional referees they would never consider allowing anything so heinous.
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bbry81
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8:43p, 11/4/21
Growing up in New Mexico playing club the ars were always parent volunteers.
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NJ75AGfdt
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8:06a, 11/10/21
I ref'ed for some 12 years in the Houston area--specifically west side although I dabbled in east and south area tournaments. I never had issues with kids--it's always either parents, coaches or trainers. My biggest bane was trainers who used to push buttons to see how much they can get away with or disturb your concentration.

I understand the frustration and why refs are leaving the game, especially the younger ones. I've tossed my share of parents and coaches. The only problem there is you have to submit a report taking additional time. Another "issue" is cell phones today can illuminate missed calls and draw additional ire. Guess what folks--missed calls happen.

There are some patterns that occur--have organizations (I.e. Hysa) regularly or periodically send a representative to view games and report what was observed? You get first hand info on what's happening.
"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man," Psalm 118:8.

"In God we trust...all others pay cash!"
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TheMasterplan
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11:22p, 12/31/21
Didn't know it was getting this bad. This makes me want to red again actually because I dealt with parents ok.

Parents have always sucked and overreacted. I'm embarrassed even thinking about some **** parents have done in the past.

Some referees are god awful though and if you're a competitive player it's hard to get over (especially for youth).
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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8:50a, 1/15/22
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
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jeffk
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In reply to Ghost of Andrew Eaton • 10:18a, 1/15/22
AG
I've coached and officiated HS. Not sure of the details of the incident at that particular game, but saying "coaching is hard too!" is a weird position to take when it comes to criticizing officials. That account is run by a Houston-area HS coach (about 90% sure I know which one), so I guess that's an unsurprising stance for them to take though.

If I had to speculate, I bet a controversial call was made/missed and the coach and fans wouldn't let it go. I'd personally throw some cards around and ask for the stands to be cleared before abandoning a game, but at that tournament there may not have been the administrative presence necessary to do that.
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jeffk
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10:21a, 1/15/22
AG
This is dumb. Officiating soccer and football aren't comparable.

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Mathguy64
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11:08a, 1/15/22
AG
The comment about football refs not abandoning a match is idiotic.

Twice in 3 years a football player has intentionally attacked a football referee. And in both cases the football crew decided to complete the game. They don't walk off for anything.

Soccer and basketball routinely card (or issue tech fouls) for language and dissent. It's hard wired into the LOTG for levels for yellow and red cards and send offs. Football coaches routinely speak to referees in ways that would get them run in soccer. It's allowed in football. It's absolutely not tolerated in soccer. Yes the higher you go the higher the bar is but it's there. Even in pro games. Witness pro coaches carded now. Or being sent to the stands before.

We also send players off for all kinds of things. Including the equivalent of two pass interference calls. Hell a PI to prevent a TD is a 15 yard penalty and the DB is praised for being smart. In soccer that's DOGSO and you are sent off. They just are not the same games. Not remotely.
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 1:22p, 1/15/22
Correct but this is unacceptable. Card the coach if they are upset but you don't walk away. They had an option before walking to their card and pouting.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to Ghost of Andrew Eaton • 1:26p, 1/15/22
AG
I haven't seen the resin for the abandonment. It could have been several things, including carding the team below the minimum, sending off the coach and they had no assistant to take over (or sending all the coaches off), or parents out of control with no administrator to deal with it.

Or they just plain had a belly full and walked off.
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 1:33p, 1/15/22
Mathguy64 said:
I haven't seen the resin for the abandonment. It could have been several things, including carding the team below the minimum, sending off the coach and they had no assistant to take over (or sending all the coaches off), or parents out of control with no administrator to deal with it.

Or they just plain had a belly full and walked off.


As someone who was there, none of that describes the situation. The coach and ref had a disagreement about the drop ball rule and the refs walked off instead of carding the coach. And she wasn't yelling or raising her voice at them.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
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Mathguy64
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1:49p, 1/15/22
AG
Well the crew will have to file a UIL report and document the whats, who's and why's. Whatever the reason for it will end up in writing. Whether those are good reasons or bad ones.

Hopefully it's more than just "the coach disagreed with me over a dropped ball"
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jeffk
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In reply to Ghost of Andrew Eaton • 1:54p, 1/15/22
AG
You were there? Then just tell us what happened instead of posting a vague tweet about it! Lol.

So no cards were shown at all and the crew just left?
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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In reply to jeffk • 2:08p, 1/15/22
The coach disagreed about the drop ball rule. At halftime, she went out to talk to the refs. No yelling or voice raising appeared to take place and the guys just walked off. No cards shown at all during the first half. That's it. I'm not being vague.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
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jeffk
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In reply to Ghost of Andrew Eaton • 2:09p, 1/15/22
AG
I said you had posted a vague tweet about it. Thanks for the additional context though.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to Ghost of Andrew Eaton • 2:12p, 1/15/22
AG
And both teams were out ready to take the field? The other coach was there and didn't say anything?
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 2:13p, 1/15/22
They were all ready to go.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
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