Call me Captain Obvious, but the Cavs are helpless when he doesn't show up. They'll be back in the lottery in a hurry if he bolts.

he clearly has his bags packed for ny right now..wont have to come back to cleveland after game 6...

Daniel Gibson is in

I guess it's time for Knicks fans to put their orders in for Lebron jersies

...is gone.

Have to wonder if he's playing his last home game in Cleveland. At some point he's going to realize that he can't win a championship with that organization.

The Knicks / Nets may offer the biggest stage, but Chicago has the best ready-to-win roster for LBJ. Rose and Noah would be outstanding second and third bananas.

His legacy will be forever tarnished. I don't care about his teammates and coaching and that he's only 25...when his teams were that dominant in the regular season and then caved in the playoffs before the Finals, that has to say something.

As Bill Simmons/Ric Bucher discussed last week, he is closer to Dirk/David Robinson right now than Jordan/Bird in terms of MVPs leading their teams in the playoffs.

His ceiling as an all-time great has been lowered, assuming they lose this series.

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 5/11/2010 9:40p).]

And if he leaves to go rack up big numbers on an inferior team in NYK for the next few years, then his legacy will crater even further.

His only move is to chase a title on a legit team. If he wins the title this year then I could understand taking a few years off to chase a 30/10/10 season in NY with D'Antoni. But the pressure to win will be even greater on him next year.

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 5/11/2010 9:40p).]

What were the other all time greats doing at 25?

How many teams got the overall number 1 seed 2 years in a row and failed to win a first title?

The '09 Cavs are already the greatest statistical regular season team ever to not win the title.

if the cavs lose this, this is epic bad for lebron. he will be start to known as the guy who can't get it done which is HIGHlarious.

he will not have as talented of a team around him for 2-3 more years as the team he's on right now.

The Bulls are pretty talented - Rose alone is better than anyone on the Cavs other than Lebron.

If Lebron and Calipari both go to Chicago, we'll get to see 2 fanbases explode.

Greates statistical team? By what metricn To what degree is their record inflated by the Eastern Conference? Are you correcting for that at all?

I'd bet the Mavs team that lost to Golden State is stronger when correcting for strength of schedule.

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Keegan99
posted 9:41p, 05/11/10



What were the other all time greats doing at 25?

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Bird/Magic/Russell/Kareem already had their 1st titles by age 25, though Magic was still in Kareem's shadow a little.

The best example is Jordan, who didn't break through for a title until his 7th season in 1991 at age 27. This is LeBron's 7th season. Last year LeBron had a playoffs somewhat parallel to Jordan's 1990 season, where he broke Jordan's record for most avg Pts+reb+ast. But Jordan's 1990 team was not nearly as successful in the regular season as LeBron's 2009 team.

It's not the organization, the organization has been trying everything to build a title team. That roster has turned over like crazy. The only thing they haven't done (and the one thing they need to do) is get a new coach. Mike Brown is never going to win a title.

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Keegan99
posted 9:48p, 05/11/10



Greates statistical team? By what metricn To what degree is their record inflated by the Eastern Conference? Are you correcting for that at all?

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I'm going by the simple rating system on basketball-reference.com, which is based on point differential and strength of schedule.

Can't blame Lebron for 09. He was bloody outstanding against the Magic, but at the end of the day, basketball is a team sport and 1 guy can't win a game by himself. I mean in their 4 losses, he had 49, 41, 44, & 25 pts.

Kobe is just on a much better team. Odom, Gasol, Artest, Fisher, Bynum...how can Kobe NOT win? Switch the two and the outcome isnt any different.

[This message has been edited by BMEDAggie11 (edited 5/12/2010 12:56a).]

I'm throwing up as I type this, but I agree with Hostile. Lakers supporting cast for Kobe >>>> Lebron's crew.

We've already seen what Kobe can do when he doesn't have a stacked roster. (see Lakers disappear from 2005-2007)

At least Lebron has taken a bunch of scrubs to the finals. I'm sure at some point, he is going to win a championship. He's just too good of a player to be shut out of that club.

[This message has been edited by aggie_2001_2005 (edited 5/12/2010 4:53a).]

You cannot compare LeBron or any other super star player that is currently playing to the Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, and those guys. That was decades ago and the game was totally different. Put current day LeBron on the celtics back then in place of Bird and tell me that he wouldnt win multiple championships? He would win every single year. Trade Magic for LeBron straight up and put LeBron on the lakers and tell me he wouldnt win multiple championships..... Shoot put LeBron on the worst team with the worst supporting cast 20 years ago and I would still put money on LeBron winning a championship. He would destroy the players back then. The nba's players are a lot better athletes now compared to the Bird and Magic days so you cant compare now and then. Its apples and oranges.

The argument of how many rings a player has is ridiculous. If Kobe would have stayed with the hornets who drafted him, do you think he would have any rings? It's about the team. You have to have a super star, an all star or two, and a bunch of great role players to win a championship. Is Derek Fisher a better point guard than Deron Williams because he has some rings? Was Robert Parrish a better big man than Barkley because he has rings? Its all about the team. I guess Acie Law wasnt that great of a basketball player because he didnt win a ncaa championship.

Just remember... pre-Gasol, Kobe was also a fringe playoff/lottery player.

Lebron's going to end up 1 of 3 places IMO and none of them are NYC. He's either staying in Cleveland should Cleveland be able to make a move for one of the big fish, going to Chicago w/ Bosh, or (I hate to say this being a Rockets fan) he's going to Dallas to play w/ Dirk.

Lebron's big enough where playing in NY or LA doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of his brand. Winning means more to it though. Those 3 places all offer the best chances for him to sign and play/win immediately.

Anyone notice the Cavs are a lot better off without Shaq?

Just sayin.

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Simplebay
posted 9:44p, 05/11/10



if the cavs lose this, this is epic bad for lebron. he will be start to known as the guy who can't get it done which is HIGHlarious.

he will not have as talented of a team around him for 2-3 more years as the team he's on right now.

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Yeah....really hilarious that a guy who tries to always make his scrubbish team feel like they are an equal part of the success isn't going to win a title. A rapist who gravy trains alongside one of the best centers of all time in his prime and needs a cast of 3-4 All Stars is way more deserving.

ZING!

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or (I hate to say this being a Rockets fan) he's going to Dallas to play w/ Dirk

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I don't see this happening. Dallas, from what I've read/heard, won't be able to make the numbers work. They'd have to get Lebron in a sign and trade and I doubt Cleveland will be all that willing to help Lebron go somewhere else.

There was an article out some time in the last week, I can't remember where, basically saying if Lebron leaves Cleveland their net worth as a franchise will drop by at least $100 million. I can't see them doing a sign and trade.

I could see him ending up in Chicago, especially if Chicago decides to make a run for a great coach. I've heard lots of talk about Phil Jackson being ready to move on if the Lakers don't win again this year. If they do he'll likely stay around for another year to see if he can three-peat again. Chicago with James, Rose, and Noah would be pretty tempting for Phil I would think.

Just my 2 cents on it.

If Lebron goes to Chicago, expect Calipari, not Jackson, in Chicago.

Lebron has a lot of power on Cleveland. If Lebron wants to leave, he's leaving and Cleveland's franchise value craters... but given that, they will accomodate if they get something in return. They take the Damp disappearing contract and they can go out and sign Joe Johnson and still be a playoff team in the East... SAVE a lot of that franchise value.

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I don't see this happening. Dallas, from what I've read/heard, won't be able to make the numbers work. They'd have to get Lebron in a sign and trade and I doubt Cleveland will be all that willing to help Lebron go somewhere else.

There was an article out some time in the last week, I can't remember where, basically saying if Lebron leaves Cleveland their net worth as a franchise will drop by at least $100 million. I can't see them doing a sign and trade.

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I agree that LBJ isn't coming to Dallas, but your logic here makes no sense. If Lebron has decided he's leaving no matter what, it's in their best interest to S&T so they get something in return. Otherwise their best player is walking out the door and they get nothing.

He's not coming to Dallas because a S&T would need to happen and there's nobody we could give them they'd want while making the finances work, unless they want Butler + Damp, which is probably worse then just letting him walk.

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Anyone notice the Cavs are a lot better off without Shaq?

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Shaq was -26, Iljauskas was +9 and Varejao was +1 in a 32 point beat down.

As MassAggie97 said, "just sayin'".

I just took a gander at the 5 man units.. per minute, if you replace O'Neal with Varajao straight up with the same starters, you do twice as well.

Every single unit where you take out Oneal and replace Varejao, Varajao is a vast improvement (at least 10 points per 48 minutes)

However, O'Neal does seem to be better than Iljauskas.

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We've already seen what Kobe can do when he doesn't have a stacked roster. (see Lakers disappear from 2005-2007)

At least Lebron has taken a bunch of scrubs to the finals. I'm sure at some point, he is going to win a championship. He's just too good of a player to be shut out of that club.

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I'm sure LeBron will eventually get his titles as well. But I don't think we can project him as a potential top 5 player of all-time because these blemishes the past 2 seasons will never be wiped off the resume. Kobe also will never crack the top 5 because of his Finals chokejobs in '04 and '08.

You can't say that LeBron has a team of scrubs, because they have put together one of the greatest 2 year regular season runs in NBA History. A top 3 superstar surrounded by scrubs is DWade this year or Kobe 2005-2007. Unless this is some major historical oddity, the Cavs the past 2 years proved in the regular season that they were good enough to win the title.

Greatest post-merger regular season teams, based on point differential and adjusted for strength of schedule (SRS formula)

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bolded teams did not win title

Rk Season Tm Lg G W L W-L% Pace ORtg DRtg SRS
1 1995-96 CHI* NBA 82 72 10 .878 91.1 115.2 101.8 11.80
2 1996-97 CHI* NBA 82 69 13 .841 90.0 114.4 102.4 10.70
3 1991-92 CHI* NBA 82 67 15 .817 94.4 115.5 104.5 10.07
4 2007-08 BOS* NBA 82 66 16 .805 90.9 110.2 98.9 9.31
5 1985-86 BOS* NBA 82 67 15 .817 101.2 111.8 102.6 9.06
6 1985-86 MIL* NBA 82 57 25 .695 102.1 111.4 102.7 8.69
7 2008-09 CLE* NBA 82 66 16 .805 88.7 112.4 102.4 8.68
8 1993-94 SEA* NBA 82 63 19 .768 95.1 111.1 101.5 8.68
9 1990-91 CHI* NBA 82 61 21 .744 95.6 114.6 105.2 8.57
10 1990-91 POR* NBA 82 63 19 .768 100.5 112.8 104.3 8.47
11 1999-00 LAL* NBA 82 67 15 .817 93.3 107.3 98.2 8.41
12 2006-07 SAS* NBA 82 58 24 .707 89.8 109.2 99.9 8.35

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Only the '94 Sonics come close (can't fault the '86 Bucks/'91 Blazers for picking the wrong season to be great)

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 5/12/2010 11:31a).]

LeBron is supremely talented, but he just hasn't figured out how to win consistently when it matters. He's caught between deferring and taking over and playing disciplined defense and gambling and everything else. There's a lot of pressure on him and from time to time he squirms.

But, when he has his head on straight I don't know if the NBA has ever seen such an unstoppable force. I have a feeling that in game 6 he will have his virtuoso face on and will play a masterpiece -- just a feeling I get.

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if the cavs lose this, this is epic bad for lebron. he will be start to known as the guy who can't get it done which is HIGHlarious.

he will not have as talented of a team around him for 2-3 more years as the team he's on right now.

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When Lebron joins Derrick Rose, Joakim Noah and Acie Law (I had to) in Chicago you are going to have some crow to eat.

Lebron's supporting cast is going to be labeled "scrubbish" until he wins a title, but it isn't their fault. He's actually had some pretty talented teammates. But Lebron is still in his honeymoon stage where everything bad gets blamed on his teammates. A few more years without rings and people will start placing him in the Dirk "just not an alpha dog" category.

All things being equal though, look at the Cavs roster. If they can't win with that lineup of talent, it isn't like Bron is going to walk into a better situation anywhere else. They've got a really good inside defensive presence with Shaq/Varejao. They've got decent shooters on the outside. They've got a pretty darn good second-banana in Jamison. They aren't "scrubs".

I think Lebron needs to be interviewing coaches after this year. He has shown he can step up in the playoffs (played very well last season against Magic) but other teams adjust better than Cavs. Until he gets to a situation with a good playoff coach Lebron is going to have to be leaps and bounds better than any other player to win.