If Dirk is slightly behind Bird, that's still a pretty high compliment.

Dirk is actually a pretty good passing big man. Bird was better passer. But Bird was best passing big man, not named Walton or Sabonis.

Bird's team was miles better, so that helped him tremendously. He didn't need much help anyway.

I think Dirk is better scorer because of versatility, but it's close. Bird is better rebounder by a little bit.

If people tell you Bird was good defender, they don't know what they're talking about. He is very similar to Dirk. Neither has tremendous physical skills, like a Russell Westbrook. They got open by craft. But that doesn't help you on defensive end. It's not lack of effort. Dirk has transformed into a darn good help defender.

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If people tell you Bird was good defender, they don't know what they're talking about. He is very similar to Dirk. Neither has tremendous physical skills, like a Russell Westbrook. They got open by craft. But that doesn't help you on defensive end. It's not lack of effort. Dirk has transformed into a darn good help defender.

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Huh?

What's confusing?

I'm with Ninja. Paragraph does not compute.

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Dirk is actually a pretty good passing big man

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Dirk isn't in the conversation for great passing big men. He has never topped 3.5 assists per game and his passing was really bad early in his career. He has gotten a lot better, but you can't just his abilities over his career by this year.

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I think Dirk is better scorer because of versatility, but it's close.

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How is Dirk more versatile than Bird? Both had incredible turnarounds and fadeaways. Both had great shots from range and midrange. Dirk is taller, but I think Bird had more moves in the post.

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Bird's team was miles better, so that helped him tremendously. He didn't need much help anyway.

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Harder to get your numbers when your team is stacked with HOFers. There is still only one ball. Do you think McHale and Parish were helping Bird get his numbers? Do you think Westbrook helps Durant get his numbers? Do you think Stockton helped Malone get his numbers?

Imagine if Durant played with a PG that was a great distributor like Nash, Stockton or Kidd rather than a ball hog that wants to be the man like Westbrook.

I'm not sure that playing with great players helped Bird's individual achievements as much as it did his team achievements.

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Bird is better rebounder by a little bit.

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Bird is a better rebounder by a lot. He spent his entire career next to two hall of fame post players and was still pulling down 9-11 rebounds per game as a SF.

I'll try again.

Bird was an average defender, just like Dirk.

The reason they were so good offensively was their skills, smarts and craftiness. (look at Dirk's triple pump, spinning, fall away shot with 1 minute to go last night). They aren't great because they are fast, strong, or tremendous leapers.

The lack of physicality hurts them defensively. They just aren't quick enough to handle some guys. And neither one was particularly strong or could jump out of the gym. It's not lack of desire, they just don't have all the tools to be All-Star defenders.

Barea is short. His effort is tremendous. No matter how hard he tries, he'll always be a defensive liability. Lack of physicality.

Dirk is now a good help defender. He can use his height and smarts. Being a helper negates his weaknesses.

the love for dirk on this board is shocking even me. forgot most of these mavs fans were in the woodwork until now.

now the mavs are playing at a high level, are about to get curb stomped in the finals by the heat again, and all of a sudden dirk is a top 10 player better than a top 10 player and is the second coming of jesus rollerblading christ

I agree with GS on this one.

As a side note. I was checking the stats for these two on basketball-reference.com and I decided to compare them to Jordan. Jordan's playoff numbers are absolutely ridiculous. The guy only averaged under 30ppg in the playoffs once, 1985 @ 29.3.

I think the great players around you argument can be made either way.

Yes, you probably don't get as many shots if you have other great players around you. However, you probably aren't getting double teamed as much and have any easier time getting your looks.

[This message has been edited by keithd03 (edited 5/24/2011 12:09p).]

Bird made three All-Defense teams.

While Dirk's defense has improved tremendously, it was absolutely atrocious early in his career. Even in this series, you have seen a number of defensive lapses by him. I still don't believe Dirk is a good defender, but he is passable. He just has too many lapses to be a good defender.

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Do you think Stockton helped Malone get his numbers?

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Bad example?

Guitarsoups points and rebounding arguments are a little deceptive. When comparing the modern game to the 1980s you have to adjust for pace. It was a much faster game, so there were more shots taken, more points scored and more rebounds available. My advanced stat link on page 1 shows the 2 having an equal rebounding rate after you adjust for pace. It also props up Dirk's scoring numbers

Dirk thread. It didn't take guitarsoup long to make an appearance.

Dirk is actually a pretty good passing big man. Bird is lots better. It was pretty evident in my post to everybody but guitarsoup.

From outside to within 5 feet, Bird and Dirk are even. Dirk is beter around the rim. That's why he is more versatile.

McHale had all the post moves, not Bird. Bird had about 3 moves which were deadly. Pump fake similar to Dirk. The stop short and pull up. And a real slippery side step.

It's not harder to get numbers when your team is stacked with Hall of Famers? That's idiotic, even by guitarsoup standards.

If Bird got doubled, he could dump it down low to McHale, Walton or Parish. Dirk has had Shawn Bradley, Eric Dampier, Tyson Chandler, and so on.

If Bird wanted to kick it outside, he had Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, Cornbread Maxwell, ML Carr, etc. Dirk has had better outside teammates than fellow bigs, but it's not comparable to the Celtics backcourt.

Teams couldn't double any of the Celtics front court. Any of those three guys would slit your throat if left open. Dirk has never had 1 front line teammate that was good. Bird had two great ones.

Bird is a little bit better rebounder. Another case where guitarsoup can't think clearly because thread is about Dirk. Dirk averages 8.5 and Bird averaged 10. Not much difference.

Bird didn't have to karate chop McHale or Parish to grab rebounds. Bird blocked out his man, anticipated the bounce, went to ball, and grabbed it with two hands. Just like Dirk, but he was slightly better at it. You aren't competing with teammates on many rebounds.

Great example. I don't think Malone would have been the same player if he didn't have the best pure point guard ever feeding him the ball his entire career.

What would Hakeem have done if he had a point guard like Stockton rather than Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell and Sam Cassel? Having a great distributing point guard certainly helps create for other players, doesn't he? Isn't that the whole argument of Jason Kidd's value to a team since he creates for everyone, while a guy like Westbrook or Iverson wants to take over the game and create for themselves?

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Yes, you probably don't get as many shots if you have other great players around you. However, you probably aren't getting double teamed as much and have any easier time getting your looks.

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It's not necessarily great players, but great pieces. This is the reason why Dirk is going ape**** this post-season: his shooters that surround him. Russell Westbrook basically said verbatim that the reason they didn't double down on Dirk was because of Terry, Kidd and the rest of the shooters on that team. I think Dirk's cast is severely underrated, especially by Mavs fans. He's not surrounded by bums.

Mavs supporting players are definitely not bums, but they're not world beaters. It's basically an entire roster of past-prime 30-somethings who have all united for one last hoorah. I'd say every championship team in the last decade has had a better supporting cast, with the exception of maybe 06 Miami, and that's highly debatable.

Now if Kidd, Peja, and Marion were all in their primes, this would be one of the best supporting casts ever assembled. And they're playing like it this post-season.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 5/24/2011 12:36p).]

Jason Terry is still the best sixth man in the NBA and Tyson Chandler is having the best year of his career.

the mavs supporting cast are bums playing at a really high level.

who knew Broadcom invented a time machine?

go back to 2002 and grab peja and 2000 to grab NetsKidd. chicken dinner.

I think the gripe with the players other than Dirk, is that there is not one that can carry the load for an extended amount of time.

Terry, Chandler, etc... are all good players in this system where they can use their strengths and not have to worry about their weaknessess being exposed.

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Jason Terry is still the best sixth man in the NBA

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In the regular season, I disagree. These playoffs... yeah probably. I think Harden is more talented, but Terry is playing better.

Either way, the title of "best sixth man" doesn't really mean much when Deshawn Stevenson is starting in front of him. If Terry was a starter, he'd have nothing to distinguish him. He'd still be the 3rd-best "Robin" of the 4 teams left.

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I think Harden is more talented, but Terry is playing better.

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Harden may be a more talented player, but Terry is the #2 guy on the Mavs coming off the bench. When he is on, he can score with almost anyone in the league. Harden averaged 12 points on .436/.349 shooting. Meh. Terry averaged 16points on .451/.362 shooting with 4 assists.


Harden is more on the George Hill level of 6th men. Terry is up there with Odom and where Ginobili was before he moved back to starter.

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Harden is more on the George Hill level of 6th men. Terry is up there with Odom and where Ginobili was before he moved back to starter.

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I agree that Terry can score when he's on, but he's equally bad when his jumper is not falling. He can't drive the basket and draw the foul like Ginobili or Harden or even Odom can, when their shot isn't on. Every time Terry drives, he usually does that pull up jumper from about 7 feet.

If Westbrook was more of a facilitator, Harden would average 20 a game off the bench. Westbrook being such a volume scorer really hurts Harden's numbers.

I can't get past the passing comment..... did you watch Bird play?

Bird was a solid defensive player, rebounder, could play all 5 positions if needed...averaged close to 2 steals per game in his healthy years. I don't think Dirk averages more than .5.

Sorry Guitarsoup, I read your post backward as "Did Malone help Stockton get his numbers?"

Of course a great PG who can distribute will make anyone around him look better.

[This message has been edited by madd_ag_05 (edited 5/24/2011 2:58p).]

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Dirk is a better scorer. Bird was better at everything else. That's all there is to discuss.

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It always amazes me when threads continue on when the 2nd post of the thread basically ends it.

As a Mavs homer I would love to say Dirk, but I loved Larry Bird as well. Both were and are great scorers. Both had a ridiculous shot that was near impossible to block. Both shot lights out at the free throw line. Bird was the far better passer. What made Bird so much better to me was his basketball IQ. He made up for all of his lack of athletic skills with his brain. He made everyone else around him so much better. If you take away Bird from those Celtic teams I really believe that Mchale, Parrish, Ainge, and Johnson are just considered very average players.

Give me Bird.

There's nothing wrong with stating that dirk compares favorably to Bird...clearly Bird is the better player, but its not ludicrous to say Dirk is in the neighborhood.

For everyone saying Dirk isn't a good passer because of his low assist totals: you're wrong. He might not be steve nash, but he is a great passer for a 7 footer. The reason his assists are low is because the Mavs are probably the best team in the league at making the extra pass. When you put a lineup of Dirk-Kidd-Terry-[Random fourth wheel] out there, you've got 3 guys other than Dirk that can knock down the long range basket when left alone. When dirk gets collapsed down on, he's very good at passing out of the double team. But rather than take that first look, the Mavs often catch the defense rotating to that shooter, and pass it to the guy who is now even more open. That guy catches, shoots, and whoever dirk passed to originally gets the assist rather than him.

I think saying "Dirk is a good passer" is really more accurately stated as "Dirk's passing/decision making ability isn't a liability". He passes out of double teams...admirably even.

Bird though, he was a creator.

I don't think Dirk is a better "scorer" per say than Bird. I would say he was a better pure shooter than Bird, but I don't think a lot of people realize how versatile Bird was on offense. He could play EVERY position, and in his later career he even played point forward and brought the ball up and ran the offense, and still averaged ~24pts ~9assists and ~9 rebounds.

When it comes to athleticism, everyone likes to pile on Bird, but it's not like he was some type of two left-footed statue. He wasn't particularly fast and he didn't have great jumping ability, but he was very mobile, and not just for a guy his size. He could run the point and come off screens very well rather than just set them like a lot of big men. Bird could certainly move.

Dirk is a great shooter and is certainly improved and serviceable at most things, and I think he might end up right around top 12 when his career is over. That said, Bird is top 5 or 4, and is legitimately in the same conversation as MJ and Magic.

[This message has been edited by jag09 (edited 5/24/2011 9:27p).]

Bird is American and white
Dirk is German and Stern is Jewish

any other questions?

Simplebay and Guitarsoup, Dirk's clearly a top 5 player of all time.




















Annnnnnd go!

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Bottom line: Bird was better, but not by the large margin some on here suggest.

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Bird is better than Dirk at every statistical category there is to compare players of a career. So the better supporting cast helped bird rebound and shoot better? Come on man..

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I think Dirk is better scorer because of versatility, but it's close. Bird is better rebounder by a little bit.

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Really? For his career Bird average 24.3 ppg and Dirk is only at 23 ppg. Bird's career FG% is 49.6% and Dirk's is at 47.6. There FT%'s are 88.6 for bird and 87.7 for Dirk. So how again he Dirk the better scorer?

Oh, and to those that foolishly said the the passing was about even (comical), Bird averaged 6.3 apg for his career and Dirk averages 2.7. Come on man

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the love for dirk on this board is shocking even me. forgot most of these mavs fans were in the woodwork until now.

now the mavs are playing at a high level, are about to get curb stomped in the finals by the heat again, and all of a sudden dirk is a top 10 player better than a top 10 player and is the second coming of jesus rollerblading christ

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Best post on the Basketball boards since the playoffs began.

I'll add a couple of scoring stats:

Dirk and Bird's points per game are exactly the same when you adjust for minutes played: .63 points per minute

Dirk 23 points; 36.5 minutes
Bird 24.3 points; 38.4 minutes

To get the extra 1.3 ppg, Bird took 2.5 shots more shots per game.

Dirk's 3 point shooting % is slightly higher than Bird's.

*These are regular season numbers*