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At least until they can find some other obscure stat to show he is second best ever after Jordan.

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Rasher, please feel free to contribute to the conversation.

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Simmon's most recent iteration of the Pantheon has Dirk at 39

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So your stupid ass has Dirk mid 30's right now, and Bill Simmon's book from 2009, pre-Championship, has Dirk at 39.

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But do you move him past Willis Reed and Dave Cowens who won two titles each as the man and an MVP?

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Okay, I just want to make sure I'm understanding this. You think Dirk should be behind Willis Reed and Dave Cowens, who won two titles, and a league MVP. I'm going to let it slide that you said Dirk should be mid 30's and now you're moving him up again, despite never admitting you were wrong earlier.

Does your dumbass want to look at who's one slot ahead of those two guys on Bill Simmon's list? Absolutely nobody on this board is going to be shocked that it's none other than David Robinson. Dirk has a league MVP to his credit, and he was the lone All-NBA player on his championship team, and when he won that championship he beat two guys that are ranked AHEAD OF DAVID ROBINSON on Bill Simmon's list, in the Finals, by himself.

David Robinson has 2 rings to his credit, and he wasn't even the best player on his team for either of them. I wonder why you would have Robinson ahead of Dirk there.

Spurs-homer, idiot. Troll confirmed.

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You will either disappear or go to attack mode rather than address the subject or details discussed just like you are doing now.

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And there's the whining I forecasted earlier, along with a nice little rhetorical deflection.

So pathetic.

I don't need to contribute anything, I prefer to watch you burn your own house down. Sometimes you can be a great poster on here, and other times the wheels come off.

The thread started as comparing the two, with no one stating unequivocally that Dirk was better. You wrote your own script in your head. Literally, prior to your first post, t-cam says something along the lines of "just saying he deserves to be in the conversation".

Hell, the name of the thread is "Dirk Nowitzki and Larry Bird - similarities?". Come on.

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So your stupid ass has Dirk mid 30's right now, and Bill Simmon's book from 2009, pre-Championship, has Dirk at 39.

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So you think 1 Title and 1 MVP is enough to jump people with 2 titles and 1 MVPs?

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Okay, I just want to make sure I'm understanding this. You think Dirk should be behind Willis Reed and Dave Cowens, who won two titles, and a league MVP. I'm going to let it slide that you said Dirk should be mid 30's and now you're moving him up again, despite never admitting you were wrong earlier.

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It seems like the two guys that won two titles and one league MVP have a better resume than Dirk with one and one. So Dirk should be behind them. What doesn't make sense about that?

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David Robinson has 2 rings to his credit, and he wasn't even the best player on his team for either of them.

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That's true, but the first ring Robinson won was in a season he had a higher PER than Dirk did last year. He was still a pretty significant player. He also made two All-NBA teams AFTER he won that title, so he was still a pretty significant player in the NBA. Dirk's big pros over Robinson are that he is more clutch than DR, he is more durable than DR was, he won as the main player and he is a better outside shooter. DR's pros over Dirk are long, but aren't really relevant here.

Of course, you bringing up Robinson only confirms your trolling. You are happy to constantly bring up Dirk's lack of All-NBA teammates, but we all know Robinson's pre-Duncan teammates compare unfavorably to pretty much all of Dirk's teammates. Has there even been a more terrible backcourt on a playoff team than Avery Johnson/Vinny Del Negro? Dirk's had some poor teammates (I'm looking at you Haywood and Dampier), but at least he has had guys that can get him the rock and nail open shots. Nash/Harris/Kidd is a set of PGs that would be the envy of pretty much everyone that didn't play with Magic, Isiah and Stockton. I could go on forever about how terrible the pre-Duncan Spurs front office was. They turned down a Elliott for Barkley trade because thought Barkley was too controversial, so Barkley went to Phoenix for Andrew Lang and led them to the Finals. Bottom line, Robinson's teammates were completely turrbl. Sorry for the rant.

I think he got mad because I claimed Dirk was a better rebounder, which I backed off of after being notified of the regular season stats. Bird was indeed a better regular season rebounder. Now, what's more important, your stats in the regular season or the playoffs?

I wasn't mad until I remembered how much Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro sucked. Holy ***** were they worthless. They were even worse players than coaches.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 1/10/2012 7:40p).]

Lots of gold in this thread.

Guitarsoup says Dirks production increases in the playoffs because he's the only star player. Why did David Robinson and other solo star players supposedly better than Dirk see their production decrease in the playoffs?

Guitarsoup says Lebron is still young at age 27 so we can't judge his legacy, ignoring that Dirk was 27 in 2006 and his legacy was being trashed constantly by that point.

Guitarsoup is obsessed with scoring titles, when that award hasn't been relevant for over a decade and its practically a negative thing now to win a scoring title.PER is a much better stat and Dirk has won a PER title

And did he just compare Harris and Old Kidd to the all-time greats or was that another loltroll?


[This message has been edited by Internetfan02 (edited 1/10/2012 11:12p).]

Simmons said Dirk would move past Malone/Barkley to the mid-teens in the pyramid, in the Havlicek/Dr J range. There was already a movement to move Dirk up regardless of the title due to recognizing his sustained long term greatness, that he was still getting better in his 13th season while his peers were in sharp declines. And that no team in the nba relied on their star player more than the Mavs.

Then he completed one of the greatest playoffs runs ever and he shot up the chart. All time great single game (okc game 1) historic 4th quarter comeback (okc game 4), historic Finals comeback (Miami game 2). 102 fever game winning shot. Free throw record, Scoring more points in 4th quarter than wade/Lebron combined, etc

[This message has been edited by Internetfan02 (edited 1/10/2012 11:19p).]

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Guitarsoup says Dirks production increases in the playoffs because he's the only star player. Why did David Robinson and other solo star players supposedly better than Dirk see their production decrease in the playoffs?

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Dirk was more clutch in the playoffs than Robinson.

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Guitarsoup says Lebron is still young at age 27 so we can't judge his legacy, ignoring that Dirk was 27 in 2006 and his legacy was being trashed constantly by that point.

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LeBron has achieved more at 27 than Dirk had. Disagree?
By the end of the 2006 Season, Dirk had:
0 Scoring titles
0 Championships
0 MVPs
0 Finals MVPs
1 Finals appearance with an embarrassing loss
2 each of 1st, 2nd and 3rd team All-NBA
Top three in 0 statistical catergories
Right now, at that same age, LeBron has:
2 Finals appearances (swept once when he was a big underdog) with 1 game won
1 Scoring title
Lifetime 27.7 PPG average (1.1 higher than Dirk)
2 MVP awards
0 Finals MVPs
5 1st Team All-NBA
2 2nd Team All-NBA
3 1st Team All-Defense
Top 3 in PPG 6 times
Top 3 in SPG once

LeBron unquestionably had a better career through 27 than Dirk. I don't see why there is any argument. Now, will Bron ever be able to flip the switch and be clutch like Dirk? I don't think it is going to happen. But you never know. He has all the ability in the world.

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Guitarsoup is obsessed with scoring titles, when that award hasn't been relevant for over a decade and its practically a negative thing now to win a scoring title.

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Don't know how it is a negative to be a great scorer when that is the only thing you are good at.

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PER is a much better stat and Dirk has won a PER title

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Cool, Dirk won 1 PER title in 2006. LeBron won the last 4 and came in second once.

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And did he just compare Harris and Old Kidd to the all-time greats or was that another loltroll?

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You would take Harris and Old Kidd over any PG that Robinson played with before Parker. Old Kidd isn't young Kidd, but he hits open shots and gets the ball where it needs to be. Kidd has been top 10 in assists for 16 straight years and has been 4th, 5th, 5th and 8th with the Mavs. Yeah, I'd take that.

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Bird played with three HOF post players

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EXACTLY. How many HOFers has Dirk played with? Heck, how many all-stars has he played with? No, I don't count Kidd b/c he is no longer playing at a HOF level.

Still, the edge has to go to Bird due to his ball handling/passing and defense. Dirk will still be a legend though.

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EXACTLY. How many HOFers has Dirk played with? Heck, how many all-stars has he played with? No, I don't count Kidd b/c he is no longer playing at a HOF level.

Still, the edge has to go to Bird due to his ball handling/passing and defense. Dirk will still be a legend though.

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There are two sides to playing with HOF-quality players.

1. Easier to win it all. Jordan had Pippen. Robinson had Duncan. Shaq had Kobe and Wade. Kobe had Shaq and Gasol. It usually works like that.
2. Harder to get your numbers.

When the Heatles got together, LeBron's scoring dropped 3ppg (and his assists dropped 1.7apg) while Wade's scoring dropped almost 2ppg and Bosh's dropped 5.3ppg. Robinson's rebounding dropped about a board per game when Rodman was there. When Jordan was suspended for two seasons for gambling, Pippen's ppg jumped about 4ppg.

So it was easier for Bird to get titles, it would have probably been harder to get his points and rebounds with all those guys around him.

Well, Guitar you have done an outstanding job of arguing over and over, and convincing nobody.

Yes, "a barely top 50" carried his team over Wade and Lebron. No question, "barely top 50," if that. Hell, not sure if Dirk's even in the top 150. Steve Kerr had a hell of a career with all those rings.

Anyone who would say KG was a better basketball player than Dirk or had a better basketball career than Dirk doesn't deserve to post or even speak about basketball on forums or in public. Idiocy.

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Anyone who would say KG was a better basketball player than Dirk or had a better basketball career than Dirk doesn't deserve to post or even speak about basketball on forums or in public. Idiocy.

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Who said that? I don't think Garnett was even mentioned except in passing on this thread.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 1/13/2012 9:18a).]

Just for fun, I believe there's a thread somewhere in which Guitarsoup argues to the death that KG is better than Dirk.

But that's neither here nor there.

Link?

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Just for fun, I believe there's at least 2 threads per season the past decade somewhere in which Guitarsoup argues to the death that KG is better than Dirk.

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The only thing more automatic than Dirk at the free throw line is Guitarsoup downplaying his accomplishments any time he gets a chance. Clockwork.

lets not forget the "hockeygame" nowitzki nickname that guitar game dirk, because dirk wasnt clutch in the 4th quarter.

guitar has argued several times in the past that KG is WAY better than dirk.

Guitar still thinks that mavs won the championship on a technicality, he is still shocked that the spurs lost in the 1st round. since dirk supposedly has choked several times, i guess Timmy chocked last yr when memphis beat the 1 seed spurs...you have to downgrade timmy's career because of that according to guitar's logic.

averaging 25 and 11 in the playoffs is less important than regular season rebounding stats according to guitar.


the hatred for dirk is so strong, even einstein couldnt come up with an argument to convince guitar that dirk is a decent player.

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Guitar still thinks that mavs won the championship on a technicality

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WTF are you saying? A technicality? Is that technicality being a better team than the Heat? If so, then yes.

I've done nothing but give Dirk his props since he won his title.

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guitar has argued several times in the past that KG is WAY better than dirk.

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And until Dirk won a title as the main player, KG had pretty much EVERY single advantage over Dirk, didn't he? Dirk was a better shooting/scorer, but KG was one of the best defenders ever, was a better passed, was no slouch on scoring (24ppg peak), won DPOY, won MVP, won 4 straight rebounding titles, and won a title before Dirk. Until Dirk won a title, no one had Dirk with Garnett on the all-time list. Simmons loves Dirk and had him 20 places below Garnett. Granted, Simmons probably has Garnett a little too high on, too.

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averaging 25 and 11 in the playoffs is less important than regular season rebounding stats according to guitar.

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Link? I've given Dirk all kinds of praise for stepping up his game in playoffs consistently. But you are also happy to ignore him going 2-14 and choking when it mattered.

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i guess Timmy chocked last yr when memphis beat the 1 seed spurs...you have to downgrade timmy's career because of that according to guitar's logic.

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I guess. In the twilight of his career, he has sucked. But in the prime of his career, he won 4 titles. Duncan's legacy had been written long before he got old and ineffective. If you want to judge him by the last couple years, I guess that is your right, but most players are judged by their prime. Did the Washington years downgrade Jordan's career?

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the hatred for dirk is so strong, even einstein couldnt come up with an argument to convince guitar that dirk is a decent player.

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Umm. Pretty sure I think Dirk is a great player and one of the top 40 players of all time. He is a great ambassador of the game, a good guy and one of the most talented and unique scorers we have ever seen. I've said this repeatedly. Of course, none of that is good enough for the Dirk homers.

You got dropped a lot as a baby, didn't you?

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 1/13/2012 1:34p).]

are you really this dull, you are backtracking from what you said on this thread.


quote:
averaging 25 and 11 in the playoffs is less important than regular season rebounding stats according to guitar.

Link? I've given Dirk all kinds of praise for stepping up his game in playoffs consistently. But you are also happy to ignore him going 2-14 and choking when it mattered.


You have been arguing with Judge and IF all thread that those are obscure stats. You earlier on the thread said those stats DID NOT MATTER and even played down the 3 others dirk shares that accomplishment with. Kevin Garnett had Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in their primes when he won, he wasnt the lead banana. Paul Pierce was, repeatedly hitting game winners.

Dirk has owned KG his whole career, including him sweeping head to head when they played in the playoffs and averaging 30.

Dirk has more playoff wins, more appearances, and the better stats in the playoffs. He is averaging 26ppg, 10.4 rebounds and 2.7 assists in the playoffs with one title, which he won with NO OTHER ALL STAR on the team. Oh, he has 124 playoff appearances.

KG averages 20points, 11.1 rebounds and 3.8 assists and won a title playing next to two other hall of famers in Ray allen and Paul pierce. he has played in 104 playoff games, and has been in the league three yrs longer than dirk.

Are you sure you havent hit your head recently or every day?

to prove my point above, here are guitar's quotes about playoff numbers from dirk not mattering. also it matters that dirk had 5 first round exits, but dosent matter that kg didnt even make the playoffs so many times, for being soo much better than dirk.

Guitar quotes and responses

Judge response: But during all those failures, Dirk was raising his game, averaging more points and more rebounds than he did in the regular season.

Guitar: That's fine. He still put up 2-14 when it mattered. Who cares what he did when it didn't matter. Dirk was bounced time and time again when it mattered. He has 5 first round exits.

Guitar: 25/10 in the playoffs is nice. But BFD. He is in with Hakeem (two titles and missed the playoffs in his prime), Pettit (one title) and Baylor (zero titles.)

Guitar: So four guys, dozens and dozens of seasons, four titles. Probably not the stat I want to use to judge all-time greats. Nice little, stat, but so many numbers and so little success

Maybe this will make it easier for you to understand:

Dirk has stepped up his game and scored more in the playoffs. This is good.
Dirk has more than one really bad collapse in his prime in the playoffs. This is bad.
Dirk had a really historic run in the playoffs where it seems he controlled the game. This is very good.

The 25-10 stat is not very telling because it is shared mainly by guys who 1. Didn't have much help on their teams so their team depended on them more (like Dirk) and 2. didn't win very much. (like Dirk. One=not very much.) Seems like you would rather find a stat that Dirk fits that is shared by loads of guys who won a lot.

Hopefully that simplified it for you. I tried not to use very big words.

so would you consider lebron and dwade as collapsing last year?

do you consider tim duncan as collapsing last year?

more than one big collapse? besides golden state, which series do you refer to? miami was not completely his fault.

yet, you continue to say KG is way higher than dirk even despite KG not MAKING THE PLAYOFFS and def not winning it by himself.

I hope logic is not required in your line of work.

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The 25-10 stat is not very telling because it is shared mainly by guys who 1. Didn't have much help on their teams so their team depended on them more (like Dirk) and 2. didn't win very much. (like Dirk. One=not very much.) Seems like you would rather find a stat that Dirk fits that is shared by loads of guys who won a lot.

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No one would compare Baylor's Lakers to Dirk's Mavs considering role players (he wasn't even the best player!), but you could say that rebounding numbers were inflated in the 50s/60s. And as we've covered already, some superstars without much help see their numbers go down in the playoffs.

Elgin, Pettit and Hakeem are widely considered top 5 all-time at their position. Elgin is probably the greatest player ever to not win a title (thanks to Bill Russell). It's an elite list to still be on in his 13th season, no questions asked.

By the way we need to vote for Dirk he is way behind Blake Griffin in the All-Star balloting. Griffin is exciting and fun to watch, but no way should he be getting the starting spot yet.

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so would you consider lebron and dwade as collapsing last year?

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I thought Wade had a pretty good series, but couldn't carry LeBron's dead weight.

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do you consider tim duncan as collapsing last year?

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I consider him in the twilight of his career. He was the third option on offense last year and the 4th option this year. How much do you expect out of the guy? His career is over. If this had happened 10 years ago, it would be a huge collapse.

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more than one big collapse? besides golden state, which series do you refer to? miami was not completely his fault.

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Miami. You can't put any win on one single player or any loss on one single player. But when the going got tough in Miami, Dirk shrunk away from it in contrast to last year when Dirk rose to the occasion and assured his place in history.

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yet, you continue to say KG is way higher than dirk even despite KG not MAKING THE PLAYOFFS and def not winning it by himself.

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Have I continued to say that?

BTW: Dirk didn't win it all himself. Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, Jason Kidd and JJ Barea all played a pretty crucial role.

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No one would compare Baylor's Lakers to Dirk's Mavs considering role players (he wasn't even the best player!), but you could say that rebounding numbers were inflated in the 50s/60s. And as we've covered already, some superstars without much help see their numbers go down in the playoffs.

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Everything was inflated in the 50s and 60s. I really hate comparing any players from pre-Merger or pre 1980 or thereabouts. Just a completely different game for the guys in the 50s, 60s and 70s. I've said it many times before, but we should cut it off at the Merger or something and have the oldtimers never be compared with the young players just like everyone in baseball ignores pre-modern era. I think a 6'8 210lb Bill Russell would have been nothing special if he was teleported to today's game. Center? Not quite, considering we have 6'9 250lb SFs.

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Elgin, Pettit and Hakeem are widely considered top 5 all-time at their position. Elgin is probably the greatest player ever to not win a title (thanks to Bill Russell). It's an elite list to still be on in his 13th season, no questions asked.

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It isn't a bad list to be on, but it certainly isn't a list of guys that continually won. That was my point, and I don't see why it is even debatable. I'd much rather find a way to be grouped in with Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc than Elgin and Pettit. You can't have that hard a time twisting a couple stats together, can you?

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 1/13/2012 5:10p).]

quote:

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quote:
so would you consider lebron and dwade as collapsing last year?

I thought Wade had a pretty good series, but couldn't carry LeBron's dead weight.

quote:
more than one big collapse? besides golden state, which series do you refer to? miami was not completely his fault.

Miami. You can't put any win on one single player or any loss on one single player. But when the going got tough in Miami, Dirk shrunk away from it in contrast to last year when Dirk rose to the occasion and assured his place in history.

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No. Just because Lebron was worse doesn't mean Wade gets a free pass at all. If Dirk choked in 2006 then Wade choked in 2011.

Wade never stepped up to win the game when it counted. He missed a crucial clutch free throw in game 3 which almost blew the game, dribbled off his foot in game 5, dropped the final inbounds pass in game 4, missed way too many 4th quarter shots in every loss, didn't get to the free throw line enough, showboated in front of the Mavs bench like a dumbass in game 2 then shrunk from the game, mocked Dirk's illness in front of the media, and overall didn't raise his game like a superstar leader.

Seeing how Lebron was struggling, Wade as the team leader needed to be a champion. Not only did he fail, there were many moments where he choked. There's no way you can say Dirk choked in 2006 while giving Wade a free pass in 2011.

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I'd much rather find a way to be grouped in with Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc than Elgin and Pettit. You can't have that hard a time twisting a couple stats together, can you?

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Dirk and Kareem are the only players to have 4 straight 30/15 playoff games.

If you drop the all-time list to 24/10 instead of 25/10, then Bird and Kareem are on the list (and Karl Malone haha).

So look out for that when Dirk drops below 25 ppg

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No. Just because Lebron was worse doesn't mean Wade gets a free pass at all. If Dirk choked in 2006 then Wade choked in 2011.

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So anytime you lose a series = choke?

Wade averaged 27/7/5/1.5/1.7 on 55% shooting. His two games below 50% shooting were 9 of 19 and 6 of 16.

Dirk shot 39% in the Finals against Miami in 06 including a 4 for 14 and a 2 for 14.

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Wade never stepped up to win the game when it counted. He missed a crucial clutch free throw in game 3 which almost blew the game, dribbled off his foot in game 5, dropped the final inbounds pass in game 4, missed way too many 4th quarter shots in every loss, didn't get to the free throw line enough, showboated in front of the Mavs bench like a dumbass in game 2 then shrunk from the game, mocked Dirk's illness in front of the media, and overall didn't raise his game like a superstar leader.

Seeing how Lebron was struggling, Wade as the team leader needed to be a champion. Not only did he fail, there were many moments where he choked. There's no way you can say Dirk choked in 2006 while giving Wade a free pass in 2011.

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Not giving Wade a free pass, but he did play fairly well overall. LeBron choked non-stop all series. No one on the Heat stepped it up like Dirk did last year, but a lot more was expected on LeBron and he was completely non-existant.

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Dirk and Kareem are the only players to have 4 straight 30/15 playoff games.

If you drop the all-time list to 24/10 instead of 25/10, then Bird and Kareem are on the list (and Karl Malone haha).

So look out for that when Dirk drops below 25 ppg

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There you go!

I'm off to see the Kings. Should be a blast.

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By the way we need to vote for Dirk he is way behind Blake Griffin in the All-Star balloting. Griffin is exciting and fun to watch, but no way should he be getting the starting spot yet.

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False.

Griffin - 23.3 ppg 10.8 rebs
Dirk - 18.6ppg 5.5 rebs

LA's win percentage - 62.5%
Dallas' win percentage - 54.5%

All Star Games are lifetime achievement awards, or hadn't you heard?

Easily better than Dirk:

1. Russell
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Robinson
9. Garnett
10. Havlichek
11. Kareem
12. Cousey
13. Mikan
14. Olajuwon
15. Moses
16. DrJ
17. Malone
18. Barkley
19. Pettit
20. Walton
21. Reed

23. Kobe



27. John Stockton
28. Big E
29. Oscar Robertson
30. Steve Nash



37. Elgin Baylor

So, I have Dirk borderline top 30. I don't think a decent case can be made to put him above any of those guys.

LeBron (I won't list him yet, but when Lebron is done, it will be no contest.)